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Comment by lutze | Hacker News Reader

Are you fucking kidding?

Woz CREATED Apple... Job's single defining contribution to the Apple I was "hey we should sell this!", he did literally NOTHING else.

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> Woz CREATED Apple... Job's single defining contribution to the Apple I was "hey we should sell this!", he did literally NOTHING else.

That's true, but that was essential. I was there, I met all the principals, and Jobs made Apple. He didn't design the computer, he sold it. Later, he met and persuaded financial backers to fund Apple's growth.

Wozniak's contribution cannot be denied (who would want to do that?), but without Jobs, it wouldn't have become Apple. The reason? Woz wanted to give his design away, to his peers, an instinct I share now and shared then. That's admirable, but it wouldn't have resulted in the Apple Computer of today, for better or worse.

Let's turn down the hyperbole. Jobs still marketed the company, even if Woz was the technical genius. Selling your product is just as essential as having a product.

While Wozniak was the technical wizard at Apple, I don't think he had a real vision for Apple's products. Jobs had the vision of what Apple products had to be about:

- hardware internals: http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story...

- hardware externals: http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story...

- user interface: http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story...

I believe if only Woz was Apple, it likely would have been an hardware manufacturer like so many back in those days. Steve made Apple unique.

In the context of the question being asked, I think a little indignation is entirely in order.

Has Woz ever shown any expertise in design? I mean really, it's like asking if Michelangelo knew his way around a fucking paint brush.

You are talking about hardware and/or engineering design. Important for sure but only one part of "design" and of a product having success in the marketplace. Without that appeal all the engineering genius in the world means nothing (and vice versa of course..)

Woz created the computer. The idea to sell it was what created Apple.

I'm not sure that's the point people are making though. No-one dispute's Woz's genius back in the late 70's and early 80's. The question is more does what he did 30 years ago qualify him to speak more authoritatively about Apple than any other random tech commentator?

Yes he's probably done enough to warrant being listened to, but I don't think his words carry any particular insight any more.

Woz created A computer.

There's an implicit context of the Apple 1, so saying "the computer" is perfectly fine. No one is claiming Woz invented all computers.

Woz created a computer, Jobs created a company. Not sure which one is harder...

Look dude, Woz may be a very smart man, but without Jobs, there would not be an Apple today. Not only did he found the company, he also brought it from the dead.

As someone who was there and who met all the principals, I have to say I agree. Chance obviously plays a part in these stories, but granted the role of that factor, Jobs certainly appeared to make Apple what it is/was.

Jobs also benefited from being favorably contrasted with a series of truly unimaginative replacements. :)

Woz created the Apple I and Apple II. Great, but that was 30 years ago. And if it was left to Woz he would have stayed at his cushy job at HP and let the bean counters their shelf his computer.

I am sorry but, speaking as someone who was there and who knew the early Apple people, you're entirely mistaken. Woz wanted to do something more interesting than work at HP. He presented one of his early designs to HP management, hoping to inspire some interest, but getting no encouragement, he began to look elsewhere. He wouldn't have stayed at HP no matter what happened with his private project -- he was way too talented for that position.

This isn't meant to address Steve Jobs' role, only to correct the historical record.

Thanks for the correction. I read the Isaacson book and the impression I got was that Woz wasn't "all in".

He perfected the personal computer which lead to what we all use today. Woz is an engineer and not a manager-type. He left HP on the condition that he could remain an engineer when starting Apple.

Selling is just as difficult as creating.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true, but in the context of creating a company around a product, I would say that selling is as important as creating.

The "we should sell this" is far more building Apple than designing one specific computer.

You know if there was ever a comment that showed how much Hacker News has been taken over by the same MBA idiots who ruin everything this is it.

I'm a developer and have only marginal interest in the business side of things, but give credit where credit is due. Without the financial infrastructure to fund research and R&D, none of modern computing is possible. Fabricating silicon chips or making even moderately complex software is basically a game of numbers with a huge up-front cost that only pays off when you can make (and sell) thousands of the things.

Without somebody selling this stuff computing would remain relegated to huge rooms in Universities.

And yet you like having a computer on your desk, a laptop on your lap etc. Sold by these "MBA idiots".

Instead of, you know, going all Woz and building one from scratch --which you couldn't even do with modern components, the best you could do would be assembling ready made parts.

Also, Jobs an "MBA idiot"? He never had an MBA to begin with, and as for the idiot part, well, I for one beg to differ.

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