Yes, you're quite right. There was absolutely no oppression of women in the region before the United States came on the scene, or before oil was discovered there.
(sarcasm, in case it's not clear)
Yes, you're quite right. There was absolutely no oppression of women in the region before the United States came on the scene, or before oil was discovered there.
(sarcasm, in case it's not clear)
I thought that was a widely known fact... that was the time when the US backed the Taliban/Bin Laden, they actually made Rambo III about it.
So, actually, yes, I think there would most certainly be less oppression of woman if the US had backed out from middle east in the 70s. I think almost every serious historian/sociologist or layperson who knows about politics in that region would agree with me, I've actually spoke to many who do, even sociologists that study Islam and Middle East with CIA grants. What they definitely don't agree with me is basically how much what they call "political stability" in that region is worth.
TL, DR; Yes, I think if the US had backed out in the past there would be less oppression of woman. I think "the US" also thinks it, but they just don't care and want a stable regime so that oil prices don't fluctuate chaotically due to heavy speculation.
EDIT: Got four e-mails about this... If someone wants references, I was just compiling some but realized that Chapter 2 of Perilous Power by Chomsky/Achcar is most likely the best place to start. So sorry, no Wikipedia or newspaper article that accurately portrays what I'm trying to explain as an undisputed fact... get used to reading and debating a lot if you want to get into Middle East politics.
Edit -- to clarify further, the OP was referring to the split in the Islamic world in the 60s-70s between traditional Saudi leadership (favoring strong religious fundamentalism) and a new, mostly secular movement termed Pan-Arabism or Arab Nationalism. Since the Pan-Arabists were usually more favorable to Soviet influence, we naturally supported the Saudis and actually fostered several initiatives to increase religious fervor & fundamentalism.
If it wasn't for the damn Cold War, probably today Afghanistan would probably be more developed than Iran... :(
By comparison, Alan Turing was persecuted for his sexual orientation by the UK in the 1950s, almost 100 years after the Ottoman Empire had seen the light. Heck, when I went to high school in Texas (1996-2000), gay sex was still a criminal offense. The U.S. Supreme Court struck down that law in 2003 (admist much bloviating by Antonin Scalia about how we were all being overrun by the "homosexual agenda"), and the Texas Republican Party removed the plank in its platform demanding that homosexuality be recriminalized... only this year, in 2012.
[1] edit: Actually, upon some further research, it seems this claim is incorrect. The first modern country to decriminalize homosexuality, as far as I can find, was France, which did so in 1791, during the Revolution.
That's total bullshit. Sorry, it just is.
Maybe if it wasn't for that fact, the Saudies weren't so rich and powerful, and those poor young Arabs, who for the most part like democracy as much as you do, could "rebel" against Saudies...
Evidence? That doesn't seem to be the way it's played out elsewhere in the region.
Please don't be fooled by the appearances - just because Morsi is being an asshole, Egypt parliament has banned porn websites or some cleric in Egypt says men can do XXX (some crazy thing), doesn't mean it was the will and wish of the Egyptian people. Do American people agree with everything US congress and president do?
But there's a big difference: in the US, you can disagree with them, argue about it, protest, hold a demonstration, and do anything you want to make your voice heard. Remember PIPA and SOPA? How many do you think were in favor of it? And it took the combined effort of Google/Facebook/Reddit/..., a 1-day internet blackout and millions of people mailing their senators to kill them.
Now, imagine the same thing happening in Egypt (before and after Mobarak) or KSA? Do you think people can freely protest?! What happened to those 99%-ers in US? (almost) nothing. What do you think will happen to people if/when they protest in KSA? Prison, torture, death.
That's why you don't hear as many complaints from Egyptians, Arabs, Chinese, Soviets (in the Cold War era, but even to some extent today in Russia), North Koreans or Cuban as you'd like. If the choice is to live in oppression, but live, or to die a gruesome death under torture, most people (understandably) choose the shitty live. But it doesn't mean they don't long for a better life.
And remember, you always (in any dispute, political or otherwise, anywhere in the world) hear the loudest, most extreme voice. Just because the loudest voice in KSA and Egypt is also the most backward, doesn't mean everyone agrees with it. Maybe they're the minority (population-wise) and can make their voice heard because they're rich/powerful!
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Edit: as an aside (and remember, I'm not at all anti-US, maybe quite the contrary), consider the "Civil Rights Act of 1964"[1]. Some Martian coming to Earth in 60's might think: "hey, those American were no different than Nazi fascist they fought in WWII. Black people couldn't use white people's bathrooms, or sit on 'White-only' seats on the bus? Couldn't even go to the same schools, or apply for the same jobs? That's fucked up." - It's fair to assume that American were/are racist based on that fact, but you and I know that it's not true. Most Americans were NOT in favor of segregation, not all of them approved of slavery, not all of them were racist... Yet, it took about 200 years after US independence for them to gain these right. Hell, 2008 was the first year that there was a possibility that the president might not be a white man (Hillary Clinton / Obama)! Does that mean American people (of today) are anti-woman or anti-black?
As an aside: Would love to know how is it in Iran, from a guy like you and who lives there. So any great summary (like your comment above I am replying to), of situation in Iran, with references also if possible, would be great.
Edit(After thought): Please ignore my comment and do not reply, even if there is a slightest possibility of you facing any discomfort because of it...
US foreign policy stifles natural progress and evolution in many countries in the Middle East.
More or less continuous improvement over time. Unlike what we've seen in, say, Afghanistan and Iran.
Your point?
Of course. That was more or less the point.
The U.S.-backed Shah of Iran (who was, let's make no mistake, an authoritarian dictator) was ejected and women's rights immediately took a profound backward step.
Do you deny it?
I'm sensing a prejudicial subtext from your comment and other comments you made, that you think the governments and the people they represent, are incapable of producing prosperous and just societies.
--Wait, WAT? In general, you confuse citizenship with democracy; and more particularly, you confuse a republic, with a democracy (the USA is the former, not the latter). Democracy is an ancient concept. Equally as old and well known are its many "problems", of which the ancients were well versed. The notion of a republic is an (historically) more sophisticated take on a democracy, and is well over two millenia old (Rome, etc).
The USA is a democratic republic.