Hacker News Reader

Comment by peterisza | Hacker News Reader

I think it was a genuine attempt but they failed to find a simple enough solution.

I’d say they failed to make it cheap enough, although maybe that goes with “simple.” I needed a roof replacement around the time when this looked like a viable option, but there’s no way I was going to pay a substantial multiple over the price of a normal roof plus solar panels for their snazzy integrated roof.

Invisible solar is a genuine use case in areas with shitty power tripping HOAs, but even regular solar takes a decade to break even, so if you sell something like that at inflated Tesla level prices then they simply never will and there is no reason to buy them in the first place.

What is a HOAs?

Homeowners' associations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeowner_association

That's where regulation comes in. California for example made it almost impossible for a HOA to block. You're not allowed to add more than $1K to the project with your 'requirements'

My solar install took about 4.5 years to break even, which I understand is maybe a bit below average for where I live (Ireland).

Although isn't there an Irish government grant to help cover the cost of the panel + installation? That would make comparing break even times across countries quite difficult.

Certainly isn’t today. In the U.K. solar panels have about a 14 month payback, no incentives other Thant hey are currently tax free (like food. Electric from the grid has a 5% tax)

On top of that there’s an inverter, and if you can’t use all the power immediately you’d need a battery too, which tends to increase the cost.

The biggest cost though is installation.

I imagine the costs of purchasing and installing the panels in the UK are similar, but in Ireland there's definitely grants:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/housing-grants...

You do make a good point about VAT on electricity bills also being a factor in the break even calculation. In Ireland it's 9% and that's a temporary cost of living measure and will revert to 13.5% in 2030.

Of course, the solution to that is to nullify all HOAs, power tripping or not. They were a mechanism to enact segregation, and as such should've had no place when created, and certainly has no place now.

Aren't you supposed to find the solutions BEFORE you announce the product?

That's not what startup schools teach

It think they under estimate the 'Green bling' factor. For many people if they are going to get solar, they want the neighbours to know. Got to get that virtue signalling in.

Not saying it is a huge factor but it is there.

Sorry I see I am being down voted. Understandable, I do come off a little like a jerk there. I am not anti solar in the least, I just kind it really fascinating how some folks who are very well meaning, also tend to love that they can show off their goodies. I wish it wasn't the case but alas this is how some folks are.

You're not supposed to be down-voted simply because folk "agree or not".

Honestly, I don't agree with you though. Yes, there are ways for folk to signal virtue, and that happens, but I don't think solar power is one of those. Frankly the utility, and financial, returns are just too high.

Obviously ymmv with regard to returns, but I'm getting 16% on capital invested (a number that keeps climbing as electricity costs rise.) That's decent enough that virtue-signalling becomes a meaningless goal. I guess folk might _like_ that they're not burning fossils to get electricity (I do) but the financials dwarf that.

Just because there's actual virtue doesn't mean there isn't also virtue signalling going on... especially when it might be (in your particular circles) more taboo to talk about the actual numbers than the "doing it for the environment" part.

I guess it depends on what you mean by virtue signaling, and indeed on how much you care about "visible" things. And to what extent the people around you care.

Where I stay solar is really common (probably > 1 in 10 has it.) Plus the Financials make it easy (if you have the roof and capital.) And here no-one really cares if you're green or not.

The fact that it is green is a bonus. (Which i think most people don't care about.)

I guess you can read virtue-signalling into anything you like, especially if it matters to you personally. I just don't think it comes into play here.

Your observation may not be true. People do what they've done before, or what other people do. Putting solar on roof is going against both of those.

There are definitely a few people who want to show off their bling/goodies, but all 326 of them already bought cybertrucks to show off. Solar panels are not something to show off and brag about, its not macho. It would be looked at as feminine technology. If its not making a loud noise, looks big and inspiring (pick up truck), billeting smoke, it has no macho power to show off.

It's funny, I said essentially the same thing as a positive upthread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48177024 - lesson is "don't sound like a jerk", I guess.

People love to show off houses. Kitchens, bathrooms, etc. And spending £10k on a bathroom doesn't even generate electricity!

I have also become an unironic supporter of virtue signalling, provided it's backed up by actually doing the thing yourself. Because otherwise the alternative is "vice signalling", like "rolling coal", which is much, much worse.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com