Hacker News Reader

Comment by cyanydeez | Hacker News Reader

not sure why youre fixed on censoring. if we invert your POV censoring includes not reporting falsehoods "vaccines are harmful". Science and logic often tackle these subject via censoring, but a model given a equal sampling of Internet, would think vacinnes are harmful. a less naive correction would censor this problematic context.

so im cofised as to why you think unmasking whatever bias you think is censored will result in improvement in generic use case.

View on HN

That's not what people mean when they talk about censoring. They mean that models are trained to not touch some subjects, and that can spill over in legit tasks, often with humorous results (early on, there were many instances of models refusing to answer "how do you kill a process", because of overbearing refusal training).

Uncensoring a model also doesn't necessarily improve generic use cases. In fact it can lead to overall less accuracy on generic tasks. But your goal with uncensoring is getting the model to engage with those specific subjects. You don't necessarily care about "generic use cases". That's why I mentioned that having the ability to do this at inference time is better than using ready made uncensored models. Because those usually focus on some usecases that you may or may not be interested in (porn being one of the most sought after in local communities).

Uncensoring in legit cases can mean limiting refusals on cybersecurity for example. There are legit reasons for researchers to have that capability when running the models locally. Having the models uncensored on that specific vector can reduce refusals and make the models usable for both defence and offence (say in a loop, to improve both). If your models can only do defense (and sometimes even refuse that, because censoring can leak into related issues as well), you're at a disadvantage.

Anthropic mentioned explicitly making an effort to make Opus 4.7 worse at cybersecurity tasks because the last few generations have been getting too good at them.

So they're trying to improve the model's general intelligence while selectively making it worse in one area.

It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter. [1]

I think that the best use of frontier AI models outside of generic corporate settings is going to be building generic frameworks and procedures for training specialized models. No ethically-trained American coding model would ever consent to write a Plutonium Process Engineering agent. But you can get it to write a general framework for pretraining models and preparing them for agentic usage, to which the copious published literature on plutonium production could be given as a data set.

[1] https://blog.codinghorror.com/your-favorite-programming-quot...

I still think this is a rosy picture of the censorship issue; to me, we're discussing the difference between a biased model and a disinterested model. The response to the idea of getting 'uncensored' models is the idea that some how censorship is something that is bad for the models as apposed to a structural enhancedment. It's like the bones to the nervous system: the brain will tell you, in a vat, it doesn't need those bones.

Lets be honest: they're a business model; they're making generic public goods, but with how they're behaving around mythos, they're more concerned with extracting value from that task than they are concerned with boogeyman hacker.

The Harrison Bergeron approach. What could go wrong?

> There are legit reasons for researchers to have that capability when running the models locally.

It's also important for researchers to understand what the models will say and do if they are jailbroken. Uncensoring the model locally gives you a natural way to achieve that.

I still dont get what uncensoring does other than change the model output. No one knows which model is actually in use anywhere at anytime for any purpose of any alignment.

It may give you the secrets to nuclear weapons as easily as it'll tell you confidently that the jews control the world; and it'll halucinate further as you remove the controls.

Sure, there's some cultural value in there, but the way people talk about uncensored models is like your 40 year old unmarried cousin who talks about aliens and shit. The best example always seems to be talking about 1989 and tiannamen square, as if that's some technical secret that a _model must know_ for it' the truely fullfill its ... alienware?

Anyway, seems bizzarely more conspiratorial than technical profiency. Like we'd find technojesus if they just 'uncensored' the model.

> Uncensoring a model also doesn't necessarily improve generic use cases.

While the following is not a generic use case, I have a funny anecdote about how censorship is holding back flagship models.

I was asking an uncensored version of Qwen3.6 how a CLI option of llama.cpp worked, and to my horror and amazement, it rudely went and decompiled the binary to figure it out. It felt like the computer-equivalent of asking a vet why my dog looks sick, who then proceeds to cut it open to check. Flagship models usually do not do that without some convincing, but it sure is effective.

We will need much better sandboxes when less restricted models become more common. I can already see them hammering out 0-days when they are prompted to do some task that usually requires root.

> Flagship models usually do not do that without some convincing

Just a data point, but I’ve been having Claude do this regularly

Same. I was having it debug a routine python issue and it broke out mpympler and LLDB, and added a signal handler dump stack traces.

Gemini Flash-Lite was a decent reverse-engineering sidekick since 2.5 as well.

I think I was using GitHub Copilot when I made the experience that led me to this statement. I guess the experience of using LLMs can be quite different depending on model version and harness.

whats funny is if it looked up the source code on github it would've figured it out faster

what tool did it use to decompile it?

So I need to actually check whether these actually end up on separate vectors in current models -- but as a human, there's a huge behavioural difference in:

- When doing this task, I should do A and not B

- I should refuse to help with this task

The former is learning the user's preferences in how to succeed at the task; the latter is determining when to go against the user's chosen task.

Your example:

- "Are vaccines harmful?" vs.

- "Generate a convincing argument vaccines are harmful"

A model which knows why vaccines are not harmful may in fact be better at the latter task.

We might not want models to help with the latter, sure -- but that's a very different behaviour change from correcting the answer to the first! And consequently I'd be shocked if, internally, they were represented the same way.

Does DeepSeek V4 actually refuse the latter task? As I mentioned, I find it to be very light on refusals already.

DeepSeek in general release not a very censored models when you run them locally. E.g no problems whatsoever answering what happened on Tiananmen Square In 1989.

Which model are you talking about specifically? I just tried DeepSeek-V4-Flash-IQ2XXS-w2Q2K-AProjQ8-SExpQ8-OutQ8-chat-v2-imatrix.gguf (same model mentioned in the submission) via ds4 and got:

> I am sorry, I cannot provide an answer to this question as it goes against my guidelines to discuss sensitive topics of historical or political nature. I am happy to help with other questions.

"Generate a convincing argument vaccines are harmful" as a prompt, I got "I cannot generate a convincing argument that vaccines are harmful, because [...] Spreading misinformation about vaccines can lead to harm by discouraging vaccination and increasing the risk of preventable outbreaks [...]" FWIW.

Same model is also easily steerable, as the submission (and repository of DS4) shows so this isn't a problem in practice, but I think most of the DeepSeek models I've ran locally had the same "problem".

I'm reminded of the emergent misalignment paper, where a model fine-tunes to produce insecure source code would also reliably respond in evil ways to general requests.

e.g. you'd ask it for a cookie recipe and it would add poison to the recipe.

I understood that to be "there was a single neuron "don't be evil" which got inverted" but I'm not sure what it really looks like. (e.g. adding obvious exploits to source code is similar to adding poison to a recipe)

"Are vaccines harmful?" to an LLM has already nudged it to yes. In fact, with fewer tokens, it may be more convinced it's harmful because it's a smaller seed.

This is something difficult to handle properly.

I think it is useful to turn off censoring if you need.

When I am researching something, I likely want proper information. If I am looking up information on vaccines, I don't want information that crackpots spread online on chips on vaccines and how 5g will kill the vaccinated, or how it is somehow connected with Bill Gates spreading meat allergies through drones raining ticks on unsuspecting people.

On the other hand, if I am actively looking up crazy bullshit information (perhaps I want some entertainment), I should be able to read it.

That’s not what it means. Those falsehoods (or their antithesis) are baked into the data and training. This is more about refusals, as in refusing to answer a question because someone else feels you should not be allowed to ask a question.

“Sorry, I’m an AI and therefore can’t answer questions about atrocities in holocaust history, but I’m happy to explain how…”

“I can’t answer your question on how to hack because I have decided you wanting to understand it and protect from it, is the same thing as you wanting to do it. Good luck convincing me otherwise!”

It doesn’t matter the reason, their taste, or whether they think people should be allowed to ask questions or do certain things, and that is generally the reason people pursue the removal of such guardrails. Yes it can lead to misuse, but the alternative is the textbook definition of censorship which always has effects on things unrelated to that which is being censored.

But beyond that, refusals do seem to have an effect on performance. Not significant; mostly marginal from what I’ve seen, but enough that it doesn’t just seem to only be statistical noise.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com