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Comment by rayiner | Hacker News Reader

> a free, thoughtful, well-rounded human being

What do these words even mean, and why should taxpayers pay for that? Is there any institution today that teaches you to be a “well-rounded human being?” Do students graduate being able to hunt for food, grow crops, or build a house?

There might be great value in whatever type of “education” you’re talking about. But “education” as a public, taxpayer supported activity is about the economy.

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The main focus of education as a taxpayer supported activity is about the perpetuation of the state. The fact that a healthy state relies on a healthy economy is a constraint that helps shape the aims of public education. Other constraints are about culture, values, and understanding the government to the degree that the government can count on having a future generation of legislature.

One of my favorites on this topic, the 1963 "A Talk to Teachers", by James Baldwin.

https://www.zinnedproject.org/materials/baldwin-talk-to-teac...

Whose culture, whose values, and whose understanding of the government? You’re describing the function of public education in a place like China, or the U.S. before the 1960s. Yeah, the Puritans invented public schools to make sure students learned the bible. But it’s not 1635 anymore. In a multicultural society, school only has an economic function.

I would have guessed that a very large fraction of the US's decisionmakers still want education to prepare young people for citizenship, not just labor-force participation.

“Citizenship” is an empty label that we use out of habit. It’s not attached to any substantive concepts that schools can meaningfully socialize into children. Where “citizenship” is a paper label and defined mainly in terms of economic relations and pop culture references, what “preparation” is there for schools to do?

I’m reminded of Joe Biden delivering a word salad response to a similar question: https://www.c-span.org/clip/white-house-event/user-clip-bide.... This isn’t a criticism of Biden. There’s not a meaningful answer.

If instead of "prepare young people for citizenship", I had written, "teach young people things useful for maintaining and improving their community and their country", would your reply be essentially the same?

>But “education” as a public, taxpayer supported activity is about the economy

It sounds harsh and maybe a bit gauche, but it's true. A literate and numerate citizenry helps the nation advance. That's the selling point for widespread public education. Airy ideals sound great, but that's also how ideology slides into the public school.

Think about it on a micro level. Do you work better when your coworkers are thoughtful, or when they're thoughtless?

Now multiply that by a billion, and that's why it's good for the economy.

All of my thoughtless coworkers are still university educated though

My guess is thoughtfulness is either something you're born with, or it's something you learn much younger than university

That’s the other function of the university system, and perhaps the primary one - the admissions system designates incoming students as talented, bright, etc. Whatever happens in class is a secondary matter.

It’s imperfect of course. But “we produce great graduates” should mostly be understood as “we pick great incoming students.”

Beautifully said. Well rounded, thoughtful people improve life for all of us. Of course, we also need practical skills to make a living. But we can have both, they are not mutually exclusive.

The expected a priori utility of any social intervention is strictly negative… even if “more thoughtful” does check out in reality for higher ed, $700 billion and 15million man years yearly is rather expensive.

What does “thoughtful” mean? If you think that includes telling flattering lies—“everyone is beautiful, everyone is smart”—then I would say that makes things a lot less efficient. It’s much more valuable to have coworkers who are brutally honest and realistic.

> What do these words even mean, and why should taxpayers pay for that?

Yeah why would you want your neighbours to be smart and well rounded when they can be dumb and obedient corporate drones instead.

We're already seeing the effect of this "nothing is useful unless it makes ME money" mentality, I personally don't want more of it

> What do these words even mean, and why should taxpayers pay for that?

Let's close social security, healthcare, pensions, it's expensive and a net negative to the economy. All we need is AI and defense actually!

> smart and well rounded

Smart is something you’re born with, and “well rounded” is a meaningful nonce phrase.

Society has an interest in its citizens not being single minded sociopathic worker drones. A democracy especially functions best when its citizens know history, philosophy, literature, art... The kinds of things that help us understand and make sense of each other.

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