Comment by jt2190 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jt2190 | Hacker News Reader

Same article syndicated on msn.com, without paywall: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/new-york-californi...

The issues:

> The New York and California pension systems would become holders of SpaceX shares through their passive allocations if the company is admitted to major U.S. stock indexes.

> The officials… objected to the amount of power the board has given Musk over the company, including:

- voting control over the stock,

- veto power over his own removal as CEO, and

- protections from litigation, including mandatory arbitration for SpaceX shareholder claims.

> …

> In their letter, the pension leaders urged SpaceX to:

- adopt one-share, one-vote or sunset super-voting shares within seven years;

- install a majority-independent board and separate the CEO and chair roles;

- eliminate provisions protecting Musk from termination without his approval;

- scrap mandatory arbitration; and require independent approval of related-party transactions with Musk's other companies.

(Formatting mine; moved paragraph about becoming holders above the lists of concerns and recommendations.)

I’d love to hear one of you staunch capitalists tell me why the description of this persons control over 13,000+ employees is any different than a feudal “Lord”

Over the entire lifetime of SpaceX Nearly 100% of the revenue comes from the government

They pay gifts and tributes to the government

They spend an absurd amount of money on lobbying and writing laws to take monopoly control of the subsection of the market

What am I missing here? Pretty sure there’s Universal agreement that the feudal system is not something anybody should be promoting

Why lie about something that's easily proven false with a Google search? Over last 5 years government revenue is under 25% and if you go off of last 2 years its closer to like 10-15% (and declining!) Starlink is the vast majority of spacex revenue

You don’t need to accuse someone of lying when correcting them.

You need if they are doing it on purpose.

Actually you don’t. Why are you lying about this?

It’s enough to show that they’re wrong - and if you guess wrong that they are lying, and they were just wrong in good faith, you’re much more likely to convince them (and others).

And, from the HN guidelines:

Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.

…

Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

The vast majority of those 13k workers are highly skilled and in very high demand. They could work elsewhere or start their own company. In addition, they are far better educated and have more welfare options than anyone living under a feudal system.

Oh yes the classic “but the standard of living has gone up and now people have televisions” argument

They are living under a feudal system

Any one of the 13,000 could be fired on whim of Musk and even if it was in error they would have months if ever to get restitution. The employees describe him as a “tyrant” that fires people based on ego

The fact that people aren’t dying of scurvy is all you’re pointing to?

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-employee-survey-elon-m...

Maybe you replied to the wrong comment? Peasants under a feudal lord couldn’t work elsewhere. If an engineer was fired from SpaceX they’d have another job before the end of the month… and if they didn’t then they wouldn’t starve to death because of welfare. That seems materially different.

> If an engineer was fired from SpaceX they’d have another job before the end of the month

This is just wrong

Have you not been paying attention to the last five years of layoffs and a decimated technology labor market?

Feudalism is a political system whereby land is granted to vassals on the conditional basis that they provide levy or taxes to their lord. While the system is notionally a reciprocal system (the fief is a conditional grant, both sides have obligations to each other), by comparing it with the dominant form of taxation that preceded and succeeded it--tax farming--it's fairly clear that the locus of power is decisively with the vassal here and not the liege. Whereas a state who engages in tax farming lets out a new contract every few years, and usually to the same people, a fief is an explicitly hereditary instrument that is abrogated by the liege only at great risk, since the power he has to enforce such a decision comes from his other vassals and his ability to personally persuade them of a course of action.

That is to say that the hallmark of a feudal society is one with very, very weak central authority and powerful local authorities, mediated by the personal interrelationships within and across different levels of authority. Apply that to your analysis of SpaceX and the mismatch is clear. In your analysis, SpaceX is an entity that is utterly dependent on the government for its existence, and need to invest a large amount of energy in acquiring the beneficence of said government. That's not the behavior associated with a feudal society but rather the absolutist monarchies that replaced them, pretty much the antithesis of a feudal society.

> That is to say that the hallmark of a feudal society is one with very, very weak central authority and powerful local authorities, mediated by the personal interrelationships within and across different levels of authority

This is precisely the state of affairs in the United States today. Where people get confused is that the idea of property being specific hectares of land rather than what property is at maximum is capitalism which is simply paper contracts and debt, per graeber

> In your analysis, SpaceX is an entity that is utterly dependent on the government for its existence, and need to invest a large amount of energy in acquiring the beneficence of said government. That's not the behavior associated with a feudal society

It is the behavior of a Lord.

The United States is not an absolute monarchy and it has a rotating set of governors

What doesn’t rotate are the capitalist leaders (investors) for the top 100 corporations and they are the actual governors of this society

Because they determine where capital flows they are the ones who you have to pay homage to in order to get property so that you can then become a Lord

Reply on news.ycombinator.com