Bun has had an extremely high amount of crashes/memory bugs due to them using Zig, unlike Deno which is Rust.
Of course, if Bun's Rust port has tons of `unsafe`, it won't magically solve them all, but it'll still get better
Any stats/source? Not that I think it's false
> and the ugly parts look uglier (unsafe) which encourages refactoring.
Looks like Bun owes that to itself to some extent, not solely because of the language
> why: I am so tired of worrying about & spending lots of time fixing memory leaks and crashes and stability issues. it would be so nice if the language provided more powerful tools for preventing these things.
Not a hard number obviously but a clear indication those issues exist.
With unlimited tokens make it a lint rule or auto formatter.
Around 2500 issues with segmentation fault.
https://github.com/denoland/deno/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20%22Se...
With the total number of issues being 16,458 for bun and 14,259 for deno.
https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3...
119 open, 885 closed
https://github.com/denoland/deno/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state...
10 open, 46 closed
You get very few of the Rust guarantees when you litter your code with unsafe to get around the safety checks (which is what they're doing here). I would not recommend running this in production.
E.g. see https://chadaustin.me/2024/10/intrusive-linked-list-in-rust/ or https://lucumr.pocoo.org/2022/1/30/unsafe-rust/
The saving grace is that in idiomatic Rust code you have very little unsafe code - usually none. But yeah there's no way I would trust AI to get unsafe Rust right.
What caused you to hallucinate such a broad blanket statement? The point is the memory unsafety issues they ran into would be categorically impossible in safe Rust, which is why they're doing this in the first place.
Yes, obviously you can write high-quality software in Zig. But does Zig categorically reject the kind of bugs Bun was suffering from? Rust does.
In short, I'm accusing you of doing a motte-and-bailey.
I am less motte-and-bailey'ing, and you are more not subscribing to the principal of charity, choosing to interpret the original comment as its weakest possible version rather than the strongest.
Now C does have some aspects which make it more prone to crashes and memory bugs. The less strong statement of "using C results in a higher propensity for crashes/memory bugs than Rust" is absolutely true, I would argue. And both C++ and Rust inherit some (but not all, and not the same) of the aspects which make C prone to memory bugs. (So does Go, I would argue, but less than C++ and Zig.)
One of the reasons WebSQL died was due to how many memory bug related vulnerabilities SQLite had.
There’s a lot of leaky crap written in those languages too. One of the core promises of Rust is that the compiler will catch memory issues other languages won’t experience until runtime. If Zig doesn’t offer something similar it’ll make Rust very compelling.
RAII has entered the chat.
Arena allocators are a great way to automatically manage memory allocations. You malloc a whole bunch of memory and release it all with a single free, which makes it much easier to reason about your program's memory safety.
Casey Muratori has a good video talking about this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt1KNDmOYqA
And about Zig, you have an Arena Allocator out of the box: https://zig.guide/standard-library/allocators/ . And it's not just limited to that, you have debug allocators that detects memory leaks and gives you stack traces where they occurred.
This isn't to say that Zig is great at everything. I think Rust is great for things like kernels, high-frequency trading systems, and authentication servers where memory safety and performance is paramount. But for things like video games, memory leaks and buffer overflows aren't that big of a deal, and Zig's "Good Enough" approach is great for those types of applications.
Video games are large and have lots of state and lots of threads. Zig's lack of ownership here with fully manual memory management is overall a poor fit.
> Which is really not that many places, it's a fast but rather niche optimization. There's not a whole lot of scenarios where lots of temporary memory is needed for one well defined scope.
Arena allocators are not niche optimizations, or not something picked first for optimization. Contrary to what you said, arenas are useful for temporary allocations with poorly defined intermediate scope or lifetime (think functions directly or indirectly called by the arena owner). If the scope is local and well-defined, a regular allocator or even a fixed buffer would do just fine.
> Zig's lack of ownership
Zig doesn't have explicit annotations for it, but the concept of ownership and lifetime doesn't go away. It's not enforced by the compiler, which is an intentional tradeoff to let the programmer have more control and freedom. When you use languages with manual memory management, it's expected that you are capable of designing sensible programs in such a way that ownership and lifetimes are tractable and are part of the program design, rather than something to workaround to please the compiler.
Right, it's exactly like C, and we kinda all know how that worked out in practice already...
Hence why I called Zig a "love letter to C". If all you want is C with a dash of zest, that's Zig. If you want a modern language that has learned from the many hard lessons the industry has dealt with over the years... well, Zig ain't it. Which is a perfectly fine thing for Zig to be, it doesn't have to be a good general purpose language. We have plenty of those already from Rust to Go to Java/C#/Kotlin to etc...
> arenas are useful for temporary allocations with poorly defined intermediate scope or lifetime (think functions directly or indirectly called by the arena owner).
Arenas are not good for that because the arena as a whole has to outlive all of those poorly defined scopes & lifetimes, which is hard to do. Especially if you later go add on something like an retry-with-backoff or asynchronous metrics/tracing or caching or whatever. Then suddenly you're either fighting use-after-frees or doing deep-copying of data.
Production operating systems have been written in C, along the with the countless tooling, libraries and game engines (which you said are a poor fit for manual memory management) that modern systems depend on. I say it worked out it pretty well.
And zig did learn from the hard lessons from the industry and fixes a lot of problems with C. It also has a lot of affordances that makes it more than suitable for general purpose use.
> Arenas are not good for that because the arena as a whole has to outlive all of those poorly defined scopes & lifetimes, which is hard to do.
I don't what else to tell you, arenas outliving temporary allocations is exactly what it is made for, they go poof as soon as the arena owner is done. That's not hard, it makes it easier if anything. To give concrete examples, arenas are used on HTTP requests that are clean up in one go as soon as the request is done. They are also used on (possibly deep) recursive functions that are cleaned up as soon as the root function returns. Of course, you don't store arena-allocated memory elsewhere that outlives the arena, that would be dumb.
That's why you have to be consciously aware of the ownership and lifetimes that a piece of memory has. Ownership and lifetimes are just one part of the API contract of a function or module. You break it, that's on you. Having a compiler help with ownership model would be nice, but it's a not substitute for having a good mental model of your programs. It's not that different from the tradeoff of a having a less strict type system. Not every sanity check can or has to be performed at compile time. Zig also has debug allocators that catches a lot of memory mismanagement during testing. Hard to debug double-frees, use-after-frees and other things are a symptom of poor cavalier YOLO programming.
That all said, I do agree that manual memory management is really hard to do if you are used to just sweeping gigabytes of memory under rug, hoping the GC vacuum cleaner slurps it afterwards. It takes a mindset and a set of practice. But once you internalized it, it becomes second nature.
(Not to sound like a zig fanboy, I do think it's still rough around the edge and there are a lot of things I don't like. But manual memory management is not that big of a problem).
Game engines moved to C++ over 20 years ago.
Most major compilers are also in C++, including GCC (it switched over a decade ago). Which means the two largest C compilers are themselves not written in C. They have un-bootstrapped.
> That all said, I do agree that manual memory management is really hard to do if you are used to just sweeping gigabytes of memory under rug, hoping the GC vacuum cleaner slurps it afterwards. It takes a mindset and a set of practice. But once you internalized it, it becomes second nature.
Sorry, but no, you cannot internalize this. Nobody can. Once a program grows past some point, purely manual memory management & "git gud" are simply not practical. The amount of evidence against this is beyond any doubt.
Zig's emphasis on cross compilation seems like it's a better fit for embedded than anything else, which is where things shouldn't realistically grow to be huge projects, but with how coding efficiency (or lack thereof) works today along with microcontrollers getting ever more powerful... who knows.
They're difficult to find, difficult to reason about in big software and you'll always create some. Languages that rule that out are a huge improvement in terms of correctness.
While bounds checking, improved argument passing, typed pointers, proper strings and arrays are an improvement over C, it still suffers from use after free cases.
C++ already prevents many of those scenarios, at least for those folks that don't use it as a plain Better C, and actually make use of the standard library in hardned mode. When not, naturally is as bad as C.
Also to note that the tools that Zig offers to prevent that, are also available in C and C++, but people have to actually use them, e.g. I was using Purify back in 2000's.
Then there is the whole point that Zig is not yet 1.0, and who knows what will still change until then.
https://t3x.org/t3x/0/index.html
https://t3x.org/t3x/0/t3xref.html
Beyond these Curses simple games, there's a 6502 assembler and disassembler among a Kim-1 simulator, Micro Common Lisps and whatnot.
Kinda like write vs printf in C, but easier to grasp. The cheatsheet will help you a lot.
Another thing: setting up the compiler might be cumbersome, I might post a guide soon. I am not the author but making it compile well on some arches can be odd (openbsd/amd64) vs native code (fbsd, 32 bit linux)... nothing complex once you set it up once.
My T3XDIR in the makefile and bin/ scripts it's set to $HOME/t3x0/lib and the bn PATH being set to $HOME/T3XDIR/bin in both Unix env vars and the scripts. It's a 10 minute setup, but after than you will just run
tx0 -c -s file
On Titanic/Supernova, well, it was a former TP game ported to FPC, is not very complex, and tons of stuff could map 1:1 to t3x. The game might be too big for CP/M but for DOS it would be ideal (even by using the T3X 'big' libraries).
The bundled cheatsheet (make will generate a cheatsheet.pdf file if you have groff) might help you. For instance, gotoxy can be written in T3X as con.move(x,y). You need to import the console library as:
use console: con;
Have fun.
Seems like their luck finally ran out. For the longest time, they were getting all kinds of passes, as if a post 1.0 language, that others don't get. 10 years is quite a long time not to hit 1.0 or still be into beta breaking changes. Though I think that (the luck) was significantly aided by their perpetual and odd HN boosting.
> While bounds checking, improved argument passing, typed pointers, proper strings and arrays are an improvement over C, it still suffers from use after free cases.
While Zig was a bit safer and more modern C alternative, safety was arguably not so much their selling point. Plenty of other C alternative languages are equally or more safe. Dlang and Vlang, both now having optional GCs and ownership, are examples.
Now you can get most of it via C# AOT or Swift, with much better ecosystem.
Still, it is part of the official GCC and LLVM frontends, so there is that.
plenty of other companies/entities making high quality software in zig? tigerbeetle, zig itself for example.
Bun's entire history has been a kind of haphazard move as fast as you can story, so...
This is a classic logic problem - eg “there is an orange cat” doesn’t imply “all cats are orange”.
> This reminds me of how all the people carried on as if they were making the kernel so much safer not realizing they needed to use unsafe rust.
Those are not contradictory. Confining unsafe code to a few unsafe blocks makes it easier to identify areas that need closer scrutiny. Just because there are unsafe blocks doesn't mean that using rust in the kernel isn't making it safer.
Because instead of discussing serious matters, they missed English grammar class on the use of / and then get up in arms about the use of "and, or".
Additionally, even code bases from companies that seat at WG21, lack the use of the so called Modern C++, without any language feature or header files inherited from C.
Better C with some niceties keeps being the prevalent approach, unfortunately.
C strings, C arrays, pointer math, printf family, C style casts, macros instead of templates, no STL, and if not hardned ...
KDE also includes many other programs inside it like music player, document reader etc. that I never had any issues with.