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Comment by armchairhacker | Hacker News Reader

Put them in work programs. If they can’t be productive, put them in mental institutions.

To be clear, abuse in these programs should be prevented as much as feasible, and there should be an opportunity for any kid who demonstrates redemption to get back in school.

It’s a bad solution, but I don’t know any which is better. Keeping them in society is worse for innocent people (and doesn’t seem to usually benefit them either, misbehaving kids usually seem miserable).

And yes, the state pays to take care of them. Otherwise it’s paying for the damage they cause outside.

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> Put them in work programs. If they can’t be productive, put them in mental institutions.

People with this mentality should never, ever be given any semblance of power. In almost every one of your comments you went to the extreme but "forced labor" and "committed to mental asylum" really take the cake.

> but I don’t know any which is better.

Are you genuinely wondering what's better, investing in prisons or in education? As far as I can tell your solutions involve making the problem worse by cutting the access to the only thing that could fix it (education), then building forced work camps and asylums to contain the now exploding problem.

The US stands proof that building more prisons doesn't lead to having fewer criminals. Education does. The first thing you thought of axing.

I think he makes a good point. Why do we let disruptive kids stay in the same class as the kids who want to study? The current state is terrible.

> Put them in work programs. If they can’t be productive, put them in > mental institutions.

That was how NAZI-Germany and USSR (communist) governments 'solved' their problems.

In the USA, we had this president named Ronald Reagan who solved the mental institution problem: he closed all the mental institutions and expelled the patients so the patients live on the streets. That's really gave us a new influx of homeless people on a national scale, and it hasn't improved.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying Hitler and the communists were right for putting people in mental institutions or Reagan who didn't?

>>Put them in work programs. If they can’t be productive, put them in mental institution

....what kind of work programs can you put 12 year olds into? I'm really curious.

And I'm sure it's clear that putting anyone into a mental institution costs the state far more than providing resources to a school to deal with this would cost? Psychologists, separate classes, teachers specialized in this. We struggle to put people with actual mental problems into mental health insititutions(because there are so few and they cost a fortune to run) but we'd start putting misbehaving kids in them?

12 year olds? My son was hammering nails into wood and drilling into masonry at 8. The Bedouin children are in the fields unsupervised with the goats at age 6. 12 year olds are not babies.

Both my daughters were skydiving at 9. Kids can do a lot.

>>My son was hammering nails into wood and drilling into masonry at 8

And was he doing that 8 hours a day, 5 days a week? Like you know...he would do at work? Or was it just a nice thing he did with his parents helping out with some construction projects you had going on?

>>12 year olds are not babies.

Of course not, but then again I have to ask the same question once more - if you were in charge of national policy, what kind of work program would you establish for 12 year olds that misbehave at school? What would you have them do, exactly?

  > And was he doing that 8 hours a day, 5 days a week? Like you know...he would do at work?

No, he was doing it for maybe a few hours at a time, no more. He demonstrated capability.

  > if you were in charge of national policy, what kind of work program would you establish for 12 year olds that misbehave at school?

I would not establish a work program for 12 year olds that misbehave at school. I would however ensure that there exist programs for 12 year olds who have proven that they can not function in the company of polite mannered society.

Ok, so answer the question then - what work program would there be for those 12 year olds that cannot function in the company of polite society. Like what kind of work would you have them do and how would you ensure compliance.

I don't have to answer the question because my goal is more the welfare of the remaining children in the school and less whatever happens to the bully. I really don't care what happens to them. Let their parents care. Let their parents find some solution. The more difficult that is, the better.

But someone has to answer. Saying "I really don't care what happens to them" is just such a lazy way out of this conversation. The whole problem is that we have to decide as a society what to do with them. You suggested work programs - great! Now give some examples of work programs you would put 12 years old in. If you can't or won't, then you have no more solution to this than someone who thinks having an idea equals having a business - it's precisely the execution that matters.

For instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_service. 12 year old would be pretty fine to spend 4-5 hours a day cleaning streets for a while.

Btw. I am not advocating for work programs as a particularly good solution, expelling and letting the parents to figure out what to do with their misbehaving child is a good solution too. School is a privilege for smart children to study, not a prison for those who do not want to learn.

>> School is a privilege for smart children to study, not a prison for those who do not want to learn.

It's actually neither of those things, because we discovered hundreds of years ago that having an educated population is good for everyone. No, it's not a prison, but it's not a privilege either - you have to be in school until certain age. Work is not substitute for education.

Have an educated population does not mean that every last uncivilized brat needs to participate. Especially if he is distracting other people from acquiring an education.

...how do you think we got to the literacy rates we have now?

And schools have been able to deal with "brats" for over a century without kicking them out of school.

Being in school does not make one educated. Keeping disruptive child in the same room with normal children, means we get fewer educated people, not more.

Which is exactly why I advocate for not keeping them in the same classroom as other kids.

Most bullying happens outside the classroom.

I mean, we can repeat facts at each other, or we can carry on with the conversation in some more specific direction if you wish?

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