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Ads on Apple Maps

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63 pointsVortigaunt77 comments

From Apple's website:

"we don’t need to know a lot about you to deliver a great experience on Apple Maps." -> so you still need to know a little about me ?

"Even if you choose to sign in, Maps keeps your data in sync across all your devices using end-to-end encryption — so where you go isn’t associated with your Apple Account at all." -> looks like magic, data is synced accross all your devices but without using your apple account ...

For shop owners buying ads, they'll still need to provide statistics of view, clicks and conversions and that needs tracking. So that's not different from google. Apple claims to be the champion of privacy, that's just hypocritical. Just check the apple Advertising & Privacy page.

> Apple claims to be the champion of privacy

While letting Facebook, TikTok and others secretly track you for years, across devices AND DEVICE REINSTALLS, through Apple's iCloud Keychain API, to store data that users cannot see or delete on iOS, except through the macOS Keychain app, and even then it's dubious if that's all that's actually stored.

I'm not sure I follow, presumably if these are using the Keychain API they're doing so via the app, to which you must be logged in, so they are already tracking you and the keychain thing achieves... nothing?

Even if you delete and reinstall the app, it remembers your logins and who you are. Even after you wipe the iPhone/iPad and setup with the same Apple ID/iCloud account.

Discord automatically logged me in ON A NEW IPAD, because I signed into the same Apple ID/iCloud account.

and I assume all the other apps from a company can share that info, like Facebook ↔ WhatsApp

Funnily enough, Apple allowed users to delete that data when deleting an app, during an iOS beta, but removed that feature before release, heavily in favor of the spyware and against users.

The keychain data of an app on iOS is NEVER removed from your device, unless you completely wipe the device. This has been the behavior since the beginning.

> unless you completely wipe the device.

then it comes back after you sign into the same Apple ID on that device or even a NEW device!

and of course the crap remains on your other devices.

Funnily enough Apple allowed users to delete that shit for a while, during a certain iOS beta, but then backtracked before release.

There is an interesting prior discussion here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39635616

Started by me! No one else seems to know/care over the many years I've been pissed about this :')

Keep up the good fight!

My personal pet peeve is that a lot of people seem to believe that disabling Allow Apps to Request to Track disables in-app trackers.

Carefully formulated by Apple to give completely the wrong impression (only blocks identifiers like IDFA.)

Can you link to a good article or post about this?

Thanks!

I've been ranting about this since 5 years, and every time it mostly just gets ignored. You can Google or ask ChatGPT about the iCloud Keychain API.

And to see for yourself, open the Keychain Access app on your Mac, and search for "Facebook", "TikTok" etc (that data is accessible by those apps on all your other Apple devices too)

> For shop owners buying ads, they'll still need to provide statistics of view, clicks and conversions and that needs tracking. So that's not different from google.

The difference is in how the data is handled. One is using it as an asset to update the FBI-like file they have on you. The other is treating it like a hot potato.

Are you suggesting apple is handing out user days to advertisors? That sounds strictly worse than the other option

"So that's not different from google."

HN comments over the years have tried to direct focus to differences between these companies instead of similarities

It's truly obtuse to ignore the similarities

Apple sells access to its users (ad targets) to Google via accepting payment from Google for "default search engine" settings

And just like that, the reason to use Apple Maps is gone.

Really sad to see. The last thing I want when I'm trying to figure out how to get somewhere is a bunch of sponsored pins and results, slowing me down and giving my brain more garbage to process.

That screenshot in the link is still vastly better than Google Maps: a generic search for "restaurants" may feature a clearly marked sponsored restaurant. There's a long ways to go until they get to Google or Yelp's level. But we all know they'll get there soon enough, copying Google's "innovations" as they go.

Yup, Google Maps is technically superior even as Apple Maps has done tremendous catch-up through the years. But that didn't matter when Apple was good enough and didn't put ads in your face like Google.

To say nothing of the difference in number of store listings and their accuracy.

for restaurants, i scraped my city's health inspection dataset and mapped it https://github.com/jareklupinski/dash-nyc

the only thing im missing now are actual speakeasy's and popups

Are you going to use OSMAND? Its navigation functionality needs a lot of work.

I was really impressed with Apple offering reasonably priced hardware of late, like the Neo. Now I see why. They're transitionaing away from the making money off of hardware phase, and into the making money off of you phase.

Every company realising it is more profitable to milk their customers every day instead of just once.

Another factor might be that Apple knows that its days are numbered when it comes to charging giant premiums over Windows and Android hardware and getting away with it because of its purportedly superior ease of use.

If you are of the generation that grew up with a smartphone, Windows and Mac are no different vis-a-vis the learning curve. You will need to learn how to use filesystems, learn window management and install desktop applications on both. And let's face it, that generation is using Gmail and Google Docs that are identical across platforms. The difference isn't worth handing Apple a huge chunk of cash to upgrade to 16GB RAM.

I think for a long time Apple could grow by introducing new hardware categories, growing the average spend on hardware (by e.g. moving from upgradable to soldered memory/disks), and additional services.

It has been a while since they introduced category-changing new devices and people hold on to their iPhones/iPads/Apple Watches longer due to smaller changes between generations and long software support periods.

So, the primary way that they see how they could grow is by introducing more ads and more subscriptions. Slowly they make Apple's platforms more gross:

- When searching in the app store, nearly half the page is ads now.

- Pushing F1 movie advertisements through Apple Wallet.

- Ads in maps.

- Pushing subscriptions by putting ads for Apple Creator Studio in iWork apps (Pages, Keynote, Numbers).

- Pushing subscriptions by putting Apple Fitness+ ads in the system setting on iOS (!).

This might work for a while, but eventually, Apple will lose a key differentiator.

> They're transitioning away from the making money off of hardware phase, and into the making money off of you phase.

As a result, I am transitioning away from being one of their customers.

For as cursed as our timeline is, "Linux desktop is solid, LLMs exempt you from the fiddly bits, and valve fixed gaming" was not on my bingo card 10 years ago, but hot damn, we just might be okay.

To who?

GrapheneOS works great and does not want to push ads, subscriptions, and whatnot. Now Pixel-only, next year also certain Motorola models.

Linux, mostly, and other companies’ services. Though I am really not prepared to jump to Android.

heh. Could the apple maps team ever be paid a higher compliment? They really, truly, made it. I remember 15 years ago when apple maps was an absolute laughingstock that couldn't hold a candle to the big guys. But look at them now.

They made it genuinely good. It'd been my only map app for years until I downloaded google maps for a road trip and was perplexed by all the squares I didn't ask for telling me about Arby's and Toyota dealers. "People tolerate this?!"

Long enough to be the villain.

Good for navigation, terrible for up to date business information (opening hours) and reviews.

Google maps’ reviews aren’t great - everything is a 4.3 because they incentivised users to review business interactions they didn’t care about by paying them pennies in Google pay credit - but it will at least tell me reliably if a business is closed today or has shut down.

The network effect of Google Maps is huge. If a restaurant menu isn't officially online, someone will have posted a picture of the menu and half the dishes on it.

Google maps' business/shop/restaurent information is indeed a lot better than Apple maps / Yelp in the UK, however I've found here it relies on business owners to update that info, and so often has "orphaned" businesses / restaurants still in it that have closed months (sometimes more than 6) ago.

Sometimes there's a recent review saying that, but other times there's no indication at all.

That's fair, I agree. But anything that can be contorted into a billboard will be, so that shortcoming is more feature than bug, at least for me. They're just a map, and that's it, which ~~keeps~~ kept them on the right-ish side of Goodhart's law.

Good for navigation? I use as default but never if I’m in a hurry.

Agree ++

The quality of Apple maps is highly dependent on where you live. Every time I check their release notes, I see “we’ve added a custom 3d model for this one landmark in a random US city”, which has zero impact on me or 99.99% of their users. Meanwhile, in my home city it took more than 3 months for a newly opened gym to appear of Apple maps, way way slower than on Google or OSM maps.

Of the big tech companies, Apple is definitely the one that has embraced America First the most. If you live outside the US, you get features later (if at all) and have to pay more for that privilege.

The US is the only market where Apple's blue bubble iMessage empire exists, so its makes sense that they'd try to make Apple Maps tolerable to use for users there.

Google Pixel likes to have a word.

(Its redeeming feature is that you can install other OSes though.)

I don't like my hardware and OS provider turning me into a product to be sold

You know what I do?

I have a second iphone.

main iphone - mostly revolves around phone and messages. lockdown mode. no bluetooth, no wifi, no location services, privacy stuff all restricted. I also do some web browsing. I run adblock which lets you filter lots of stuff. apple id signed out.

and my second iphone - offline iphone.

I install it using ethernet with outside connection (usb->ethernet dongles work for iphone)

I delete MANY apps, like phone, messages, tips, stock, health, news, tv, all happily.

I install some 3rd-party apps.

I sign into the app store only with apple id.

I install adblock and enable it.

I install audible and kindle, add books/audiobooks (adblock prevents some ad connections like kochava.com)

translation (offline). siri (offline). maps (offline).

All of these have offline data that I download.

Then I sign out of icloud (the app store conveniently kind-of-signs-you in)

-> and I disconnect the phone for the last time.

then I turn on:

- bluetooth on.

- location services on.

- camera with location services.

- siri

I don't use wifi, just the ethernet to my (local only) network. I use some apps that talk to my local network - omnifocus, nextcloud.

and I have an offline phone that doesn't phone home.

the maps problem is: apple offline maps last 30 days then disappear. There are lots of complaints online about this. "I was in timbuktu with no internet and couldn't navigate back to the village because the maps expired".

If I need them have I wipe the phone and start over. Jerks.

also audible downloads auto-remove when you get to the end. hard to find settings: Downloads -> settings -> auto remove books: off

Maybe excessive, but it makes me happy.

The best part of computers is the convenience, I think.

Why?

Apple "values your privacy" but has a multi-thousand-page privacy policy.

But an offline phone? no tracking, but you can still turn on location services, siri, maps (with directions).

it also doesn't need wifi or cellular, so works in the woods etc.

kindle books/audible audiobooks track each thing you do, but can't offline.

so again: makes me happy. You should be able to be left alone.

Drugs

like are you okay?

> To connect you with relevant businesses and services, we never use information like your precise location or history of interactions with Maps. Instead we focus on contextual information such as search terms, a device’s approximate location, or the area of the map on screen.

I’m not sure I understand the distinction between “precise location” and “a device’s approximate location” here. If the latter is still location data from the device, how meaningful is the privacy difference?

I don’t support this endeavour but “you are at 123 Fake Street at 9:47am on Thurs May 7” vs “you are in the area of Fake Street/Sham Town on a Weekday Morning”.

Oh god finally, I was so lost in my life unable to find the nearest place with coffee and bubble tea, also my car unexpectedly runs out of fuel every time hopefully they will resolve this.

There are two types of context-based ads IMO, with one context being that of the user, and the other of the things they are doing, Apple has clearly just refused to make the distinction.

Reading a website about cheese, show me a cheese-related ad, viewing the map of my neighborhood, show me neighborhood related ads, no need to get my location for any of it. These are things that a server already knows it served you, a website and a map.

From my experience Google Maps is the superior product. The only reason I kept using Apple Maps was because I wasn’t molested with ads.

Now that this will obviously change, why should I keep using Apple Maps? At least they should have kept it ad-free for people already paying a premium for their Apple One Premium subscription.

I have less and less incentives to stay in the Apple ecosystem, this is just another nail in the coffin.

Depends what you're looking for. If I'm looking for businesses or streetview or 3D I'll use Google Maps. If I want to explore I'll use openstreetmap. Sometimes I'll use public rights of way mapping or parking zone boundaries on local council websites, or hiking-specific mapping apps that overlay routes. Having one mapping app that does it all would be nice, but each serves their purpose

I used to quite like Apple Maps, but then I tried to switch to it for navigation in CarPlay and discovered why so many people hate it. Me: "Hey Siri, navigate to {exactly the same hospital I went to yesterday}", Siri: "I found a McDonalds 309 miles away, it has a trip advisor rating of 2 stars, want that one?".

I've never sworn at Siri so much as I do in my car.

It used to be that they included a bunch of software to make their hardware more useful. But I guess they couldn't resist squeezing out a bit more revenue through enshittification. The profit motive is ultimately too strong. Ads on the lock screen and in the dock next?

> Ads on the lock screen and in the dock next?

Arguably already happened, via notifications. They've long allowed third-party apps to send notifications that are actually ads, and a few first-party apps (most notably wallet with the F1 movie ads last year) have started doing this too. Those made it to the lock screen, and if you happened to dock any of those apps, the obnoxious red notification dot would induce you to click on it.

Any app that did that to me lost its notification privileges permanently and got uninstalled if it wasn't a built-in app, but I suppose Apple could start directly injecting unavoidable ads too.

Squeezing the extra 2% of revenue through making it shit has “no downsides”

Voting with wallet doesn’t work, the power imbalance ya too large. This isn’t boycotting your local deli because they get rid of your favourite sandwich.

Eventually china’s cultural takeover will win out and we can only hope it isn’t built on the parasitical advertising industry.

also see: https://nonogra.ph/write-some-software-give-it-away-for-free...

Hope they don't ruin the experience and make it delightful for at least some users.

Long dreamed of using map as a treasure/deal hunt, like the Japanese, especially in this economy: https://tinyurl.com/2dlx29eo

Discussion when this was announced just over a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47504112

And that’s why I use Organic Maps and why I’m getting a Jolla phone

Q2 revenue $111.2 billion. But it’s never enough.

How Apple luster for services growth makes it indistinguishable from Android, while being more expensive.

Apple’s focus under Tim Cook to extract every penny possible from services while making them worse has been antithetical to its past promises of innovation or extraordinary experiences. If I wanted an ad infested experience everywhere, why would I choose Apple? This is the exact manifestation of enshittification.

It’s only US and Canada that are getting the maps ads, as of now. This means Apple is confident that Apple Maps is good enough and is used widely in those places. Apple is once again trying to squeeze more money out of services as the days pass. The App Store ads and experience are on the same lines. [1]

In India, Apple Maps just shows whatever TomTom or MapmyIndia or another provider has, and data availability and quality are extremely poor. The maps app cannot even find addresses or show transit directions in major metropolitan cities.

Tim Cook famously said in May 2016, when inaugurating a new office in India, that Apple is investing in accelerating Maps development. [2] These ads seem to a result of this investment.

Tangentially, it’s now a decade and Apple has almost nothing to show in maps improvements in India. It’s the same bad experience as it was then.

[1]: https://blog.thinktapwork.com/post/812803664980967425/ios-ap...

[2]: https://www.apple.com/in/newsroom/2016/05/19Apple-Opens-Deve...

How long until Macs come with preinstalled bloatware?

Have you recently launched any iWork apps?

https://mastodon.social/@stroughtonsmith/115973178893109987

They already do. Apple News is basically a gossip blog plus Taboola ads. Apple TV+ is useless without a subscription.

So now when I search “Ramen” I can be directed to the business who has the social media team and marketing budget instead of just surfacing really good ramen as the top result.

Steve Jobs would be sad to see the soul of Apple left with him to the grave. To all the people who argue Apple is a better company since, I’d argue the intent of Apple was never to insert itself into every economic, opportunistic business of the world. A reminder that it’s respectable to have a focused business and not feel like you need to do it all. The world would be a better place.

Sad to watch Apple enshitify themselves now. Nipping it in the bud and switching away from iOS to GrapheneOS right now.

Any indications the new CEO will be less inclined to embrace enshittification like this?

I say enshittification but it’s a bit of a misnomer because Apple Maps hasn’t ever really not been shit, but anyway…

>Any indications the new CEO will be less inclined to embrace enshittification like this?

The linked page for ads on maps says "Coming soon". He didn't cut it off, so looks like he'll be complicit in the enshitification

New one isn't taking over until September.

And the CEO in waiting doesn't have power to stop this shit here and now, just because his official placement would be in a a few months?

Much more likely the same shit will continue under him.

And everything turns to shit. Even when you pay premium for it.

what a joke apple has become. all to make a few people's careers.

WTF. Enshittification expands apace.

Nothing says "upscale product worth paying a premium for" than slathering it with advertising /s

Reply on news.ycombinator.com