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Comment by protimewaster | Hacker News Reader

Last time this was discussed, it was stated that the text exempting based on cycle counts was removed from the final, adopted version. Is that incorrect?

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The batteries regulation[1] doesn't contain such an exemption. The legal argument that iPhones may be exempt goes like this:

- The batteries regulation is a general regulation and article 11 specifically says the following:

> This paragraph shall be without prejudice to any specific provisions ensuring a higher level of protection of the environment and human health relating to the removability and replaceability of portable batteries by end-users laid down in any Union law on electrical and electronic equipment as defined in Article 3(1), point (a), of Directive 2012/19/EU.

- There is a different regulation, the ecodesign regulation for smartphones and tablets[2], that is more specific and therefore might supersede the batteries regulation on this front, which says:

> (ii) manufacturers, importers or authorised representatives may provide the battery or batteries referred to in point (i)(a) only to professional repairers if manufacturers, importers or authorised representatives ensure that the following requirements are met:

> (a) after 500 full charge cycles the battery has, in a fully charged state, a remaining capacity of at least 83 % of the rated capacity;

> (b) the battery endurance in cycles achieves a minimum of 1 000 full charge cycles and after 1 000 full charge cycles the battery has, in a fully charged state, a remaining capacity of at least 80 % of the rated capacity;

> (c) the device meets IP67 rating.

[1]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

[2]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

This is solid. I like it.

I can strongly state that it is 100% possible to do ip67 with removable batteries in the sense people general mean.

That said, I am afraid how one can play with the definition of removable. Everything is removable given enough force.

EU courts generally frown on such shenanigans.

Great point. This sections closes that opportunity:

    > No barriers: The use of adhesives that can only be removed with heat or solvents is prohibited.

The whole "removable (but only) with a jackhammer" is negated immediately.

the galaxy s5 had everything we are told they removed for waterproofing. removable back cover and battery, and a headphone jack

But what exactly is a charge cycle? I mean, the effect on a battery being loaded from 0% to 100% and drained to 0% again is vastly different from a battery being charged from 40% to 50% and being used until 40% ten times in a row.

And how many people have the free mental space to manage the charge capacity of their phone?

I plug mine into the charger when I go to bed, and unplug it in the morning when I start my day. I don't have time to think about phone charge levels much beyond that.

The will mange it for you - the iOS setting app has options to do this.

Can’t say I really trust that stuff like “charge only when green energy is available”. It’s a nice idea but whenever I’ve used Android devices my expectation was that sometimes I plug in my device at night but it doesn’t really charge and I am not going to pay top dollar and deal with life in a walled garden to have that experience.

Maybe you can do an 80% charge limit on Android the same way I do on my iPad 10?¹ My charger is plugged into a smart plug, and I have an automation written using Apple Shortcuts that turns that smart plug off via Matter whenever the iPad's charge rises above 80%.

I don't know much about Android but assume there must be some way to do similar automations (because I've never seen in any of the Android vs iPhone arguments someone say go with iPhone because of superior automation support).

I recommend going with Matter for the smart plug because if you use the manufacturer's app to control it those often require that you be logged in. The problem with that (beyond any annoyance you might have at needing to make an account to use your device) is that the login might occasionally expire, then your automation breaks.

¹I can't use Apple's charge limit setting because for some reason I can't even guess at when they finally added it to iPadOS they only added it iPads newer than my iPad 10.

I have latest Android on the Pixel 8. I just checked and found it under Settings > Battery > Battery Health

It specifically has an option for 80% (const) or an "Adaptive Charge" predictive algorithm that charges to 80% and then only fully charges to 100% right before you typically unplug it from the charger.

I also wonder how this is impacted by time. If I have a device that's at 75% capacity at 200 cycles, but it's 7 years old, does that fail to meet these requirements?

Because my experience has been that the cycle count doesn't matter that much as the battery gets old. Old batteries just lose capacity.

That's another valid point: when you just keep a battery around and don't use it, it also loses capacity at a certain point.

So even when you don't use them, you have to babysit lithium-ion batteries. That's why I still love devices with those crappy AA batteries. In general, those have lower capacity, but you can just dump a device into a drawer for 3 years (remember to take the batteries out or use rechargeables) and just put fresh batteries into the device when you need it.

For example, I have those wireless Sennheiser over-ear headphones, which are probably 10+ years old, but they just keep working because they use AAA rechargeables.

Just to be clear: There is an official notice of the EU commission making this legal argument:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52...

> Consequently, in the case of portable batteries included in products covered by Regulation (EU) 2023/1670, the removability and replaceability obligations set out in Annex II of that Regulation prevail over those set out in Regulation (EU) 2023/1542.

The ecodesign law (spare part but 1000 cycle exemption) pevails over the batteries law.

On the page linked to it mentions the two exceptions that exempt iPhone and other flagship phones - long lifespan (80% after 1000 charges) and waterproof (IP67).

The other exemption criteria is for specialized (medical) devices and devices where a removable battery would be unsafe.

It does, but, in the previous HN discussion, there was a link to the what was reportedly the adopted version of the bill, and those exemptions were gone from the text.

Somebody pointed me to the latest version of the act and it does have the 80% after 1000 charges text.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

This is the text:

> the battery endurance in cycles achieves a minimum of 1 000 full charge cycles and after 1 000 full charge cycles the battery has, in a fully charged state, a remaining capacity of at least 80 % of the rated capacity;

Another user pointed out that there are actually two sets of rules. There's a general one that doesn't have the exemptions, and a tablet and phone specific one that does.

It's not clear to me which takes precedence, though, as it sounds like the wording of the phone and tablet-specific rules leaves open the possibility that it can be made more strict by other sets of rules.

Yeah I found the exception for waterproof devices (which isn't any waterproof devices; arguably phones wouldn't count). But there doesn't appear to be anything about cycle counts:

> To ensure the safety of end-users, this Regulation should provide for a limited derogation for portable batteries from the removability and replaceability requirements set for portable batteries concerning appliances that incorporate portable batteries and that are specifically designed to be used, for the majority of the active service of the appliance, in an environment that is regularly subject to splashing water, water streams or water immersion and that are intended to be washable or rinseable. This derogation should only apply when it is not possible, by way of redesign of the appliance, to ensure the safety of the end-user and the safe continued use of the appliance after the end-user has correctly followed the instructions to remove and replace the battery. Where the derogation applies, the product should be designed in such a way as to make the battery removable and replaceable only by independent professionals, and not by end-users.

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