We need a federation of forges
blog.tangled.org
blog.tangled.org
Near inevitabilities:
- All the small instances defederating from the largest due to politics/spam/annoying noobs/whatever, effectively killing the easiest path to entry into the community
- Pointless debates about whether it’s OK to federate with instances that host pirated content, disagreeable politics, furry VNs, etc., which everyone has to take a side (the correct side) on
- Relatively little actual work/productive discussion going on, since many users are there mostly for the politics / fediverse posturing than for actual work
Your account is hosted on a PDS and you sign into the app with your PDS sign-in and records go to your PDS, but everything on the app is from what's called an "AppView" which provides a centralized view of all data in all PDSes so it feels just like you're using a regular centralized app. But there can be multiple AppViews and AppViews can be self-hosted.
So unlike with Mastodon, it doesn't matter what PDS "instance" you're on because the app layer is completely separate from it.
Regardless of name and precise technical details, there are central service components that can ban you. If a proper ecosystem of those ever springs up then the equivalent of fediblock (ie guilt by association) oriented at individual accounts or PDS is the next logical step. At present (last I checked) there's only (approximately) one primary provider plus blacksky making the situation even worse.
This isn't some wild hypothetical - we also see guilt by association in the matrix ecosystem.
Most bans today are at the "appview" level: the big indexed view of all the data, that combines the firehoses ("relays") marks accounts as banned & doesn't show their stuff. But the relay and the PDS still work.
Agreed that there aren't many public appviews for Bluesky posting right now, really just the two. Tangled itself though is an appview, of a different sort: one not for posting but for git issues/pr's/rtc. This appview isnt gated on Bluesky or Blacksky's permission. And folks could pretty comfortably host Tangled aplview themselves, subscribing their Tangled instance to any of the dozens of firehose/relay instances, getting all pre-filtered Tangled activity. And that really is quite decentralized a model that is imminently doable. Regarding the technical properly, the concern here about banning feels premature & naive: it assumes Tangled depends on these appviews at all, and it doesn't.
I will note that Phil's constellation project just tackles the key reverse indexing that comprises much of the appview work: taking all the firehose records, and connecting all the threads and likes together. Constellation runs ok as a public service on an rpi. There's a lot of challenges to making new appviews, but it is astounding and comforting seeing the core indexing for a sizable multi-media social network running on an rpi. What seems like a dire situation may actually be opportunity, if folks actually tried.
Whatever problems we want to foresee dooming us, whatever slopes we want to hypothesize sliding down, what we have here sounds way way better than anything else available to me today. Personally I'm much more bright blue sky sunnier about the prospects rather than your dark raincloud doom fall scare-away. The risk imo is immensely more weighted in not trying more than trying.
The key difference is that ATProto currently only has a small handful of instances, ie it remains largely centralized. Certainly it's a blessing that the operators appear to have generally acted with benevolence to date but that's not really relevant to the point I'm making.
1) there’s an app-agnostic hosting layer (and anyone can run a host, a bit like personal site with RSS)
2) then there’s apps, which aggregate over data from all hosts (a bit like Google Reader or Feedly)
So there’s no such thing as “defederating”. You don’t have many copies of Tangled beefing with each other. It’s more like you can run your own hosting for your own data (if you want), and anyone can build an app that aggregates from everyone’s data (Tangled is one such app).
If this got you curious, I have two longreads: https://overreacted.io/open-social/ (conceptual) and https://overreacted.io/a-social-filesystem/ (diving into the data model).
Except that, crucially, RSS/Atom plays well with static nodes (e.g. personal websites generated with Jekyll/Hugo/whatever—or even written by hand[1]), and Atproto does not. (Nor does Mastodon; previously: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30862612>.)
It'd be great if the complexities needed to support the "Atmosphere" were widely recognized/acknowledged to be overkill and soon enough ended up going the way of things like CORBA and WSDL while in its place a resurgence of interest in the Atomsphere emerged.
1. <https://m15o.ichi.city/site/writing-atom-feed-manually.html>
Atproto's PDS is the root idea that everything extends off of, is the "social filesystem" that you control. There's a protocol objective to be able to spread your data around widely and for folks to be able to cryptographically check that that data came from you (even if you have to change hosts or even if someone sneakernets your data around). That's going to have some complexity! But it allows aggregation, is essential to how we are able to syndicate data so widely in atproto. It's so important it's in the name: Authenticated Transfer protocol.
And that in turn enables systems like Tangled here to be built, that layer stop the personal data servers, and relays. These work because there is identity.
If you need your static site to be on atproto (yay!), you can just have one of the various PDS hosts (such as Bluesky or eurosky or black sky or npmx) host the PDS for your. Since it is authenticated and user sovereign, you can permissionlessly move to a different host whenever you please, should that go awry. It's unclear to me why static site needs are an interesting or useful target that social networking ought conform to.
If you want to make a simpler network where we don't have those guarantees, please go right ahead. It feels to me like a snap reaction though that doesn't bother weighing what we have gotten or why things are this way, that is reflexively demanding.
These seems to defeat the purpose of the relative amount of sovereignty that hosting a static site gives you compared to depending on a PDS.
> It's unclear to me why static site needs are an interesting or useful target that social networking ought conform to.
How is this possible?
Your lack of a reply at the end, refusing to support basically your entire ask with even a modicum of supporting cause, feels a bit vindicating, that indeed you are a hostile agent & not here to engage or discuss, but to throw bombs.
Have we met?
Atom was designed for news, before social media existed, where 15+ minute polling times were (borderline) acceptable. Atproto was designed for social media, in an age of Twitter users getting their news in seconds, to the point of being able to comment on live events play-by-play. There's no coming back from that world.
With that said, I wish both Mastodon and Atproto supported opt-in pull-based, static sources.
And this is widely recognized by now to have been a very bad thing, even/especially those most susceptible to its draw. It's strange that you're framing it as a strength and not a lament.
> There's no coming back from that world.
You can't say that when everyone just begs the question and shoves application-server-needed-here protocol designs to the fore.
It has upsides and downsides. The ability to live-post an event, or get up-to-the-minute news, can be a good thing.
Bridgy web (brid.gy) does that somewhat. Converting static sites into site.standard atproto records and whatever the corresponding activitypub format is.
Unless they gut or disable their API, and then ban scrapers, although I understand why after seeing bots crush sites.
I'm conflicted about the costs of what is currently effectively global discovery, but it's not just another Mastodon.
E: I think its funny multiple other people said the same thing in the time it took me to write this
These days running a relay is fairly cheap (~$30/mo?), there’s maybe a dozen of them, and some apps don’t use one at all (instead relying on services like https://constellation.microcosm.blue/ for querying backlinks).
Why do you have to take a side / take the correct side? Can't you either just not take any side or take whatever side you feel like and go with that?
Of course, all sides are wrong in somebody's eyes; so no matter what you do, you will be defederated from by at least somebody.
The way Mastodon works, defederation irreversibly breaks all follow relationships, without notifying those involved. If you disagree with the decision, you can migrate to another server, but you won't get your followers / followees back, not without everybody involved doing a lot of manual drudge work. This is just one way in which the myth of "users are free to do what they wish, if they disagree with the admins, they can migrate somewhere else" breaks.
To make matters worse, there's no way to see which users that you may wish to follow are / will be hidden from you if you choose a given instance. Defederation lists are a (somewhat open) secret; it's good practice to announce defederations, but there's no automated API endpoint to see them, so there's no way to answer the question of "who am I going to lose if I migrate from x to y."
Ok, so? People block you all the time because they don't agree with you, why is that a problem? If people don't want to hear what you say, shouldn't they be allowed to not listen?
Personally, I don't understand that point of view of blocking people who you disagree with, for me the point of the internet is to find different views and perspectives, but I'm also fine with others filtering out whatever I say, doesn't really impact me either way.
If you want no rules what you say, run your own instance. Depending on what you say, some people will want to listen, others will want to filter your opinion away, I don't think either sides are "wrong" for that, it's just like in real life. If you want to use someone else's instance, you follow their rules. It mostly isn't harder than this.
You go on a cruise for two weeks and there's a disagreement about whether to federate with Meta or not. Your admin takes a side, whatever that side might be. Two weeks later, you come back and lose 10% of followers, and there's nothing you can do about it.
... wait a minute.
In case you haven't read them before, the docs for migrating are here: https://atproto.com/guides/account-migration
Nobody chooses instances for that, very few know anything about the admin, people just like the content until... in >70% of cases, bait and switch follows
That's why Mastodon is such an incredible mess, it creates the conditions for serious problems, then goes: "you chose what you knew nothing about, nor there's any way to know anything, therefore... you are the problem".
I've heard of instances carrying a lot of Nazi content being banned, and of instances choosing not to re-host adult media (which makes the interface a bit worse, but doesn't actually block you from getting that). But most admins from what I've seen are pretty clear on this in the about page of the instance.
70% seems like a wild claim.
I have had content I like being removed from major social media platforms, like reddit and tumblr.
Also, if you choose an instance and it gets shut down, you just start another account. This isn't serious business, it's social media. To me, complaining about having to choose an instance to start is like complaining about having to choose a class at the start of an RPG.
Personally, I really love mastodon as a platform and I don't understand all the hate it gets here.
Ahckchually, once you create an account you can use the API endpoint for remote lookup to test in an automated manner which nodes are and aren't reachable.
Yes, it's that toxic. Go subscribe #FediBlock hashtag if you don't believe me.
I've seen that, and I'm not sure what's supposed to be toxic. It's community-organized filtering of unwanted views, for the people who want to engage in that. I don't agree with that, so I don't participate or do that myself, and I also don't seem to face any negative consequences because I'm not participating in that. What am I supposed to be sad about here, that some people don't want to listen to my views?
The problem is when this is a large server with people you know using it. They suddenly disappear from your feed. And those people may not have even agreed with the reason for defederation.
At that point, the only way to connect with your friend(s) is for you or them to find new servers that haven't (yet) gotten into a defederation slap fight.
The TL;DR of the problem with Mastodon is that you basically need to pin your identity to what is essentially a small internet community/forum and then give them full power to decide who/what you can consume while your identity is tagged to their community.
> sounds like people you probably don't want to interact with anyways?
That's all well and good when it's a single user instance or small group of friends. But often enough it will be a much larger one with unknowing participants caught up in it. Blaming them for choosing the "wrong" instance is about as productive as blaming people for using facebook - technically correct but that's about it.
That said, the AP model seems like the least worst to me. Every option I'm aware of has significant downsides.
Again, go check #FediBlock. If you'd like a specific example of the single issue vs multiple issues, pay specific attention to trans vs black conflict there and see how it is played by both sides.
Comparing open source social to algorithmically based social is never going to work, that's like saying the Light Phone isn't as popular as the iPhone, so its a failure.
The question is, does it work for you ? If over time open social gets a toehold then it will be an option people know about and can choose.
Resulting in everyone just picking the "default" instance.
You say this as if it happens often, but it's more likely that a smaller instance will go under because of costs, and there are tons of perfectly fine instances where this doesn't happen at all.
Also you can join more than one instance.
Also it costs very little to host your own instance.
This is not a problem that exists for most people using Mastodon.
I agree the onboarding process is a bit confusing but really it isn't much more confusing than subscribing to a subreddit, except your identity only exists on that subreddit rather than a separate account.
Which I would definitely agree is a flaw but not an insurmountable obstacle.
Also, tangled is atproto based, the big blue mothership will always be in control.
I've really enjoyed Tangled. It has so far been what I've wanted from a GitHub replacement, is simpler and does not have as many features, but it has been the main social/git provider I've been using for personal open source projects for about a year now (this me https://tangled.org/did:plc:rnpkyqnmsw4ipey6eotbdnnf)
- It has a social graph connected to it I know from the social media I use (Bluesky), it's nice to put a face/name I may have seen to their commits/prs/issues
- Is nice it's login is the same as other things I use
- They have recently added built in support for static sites, nice for those client side webites or simple index.htmls you want to host somewhere straight from your git repo.
- Spindles is their build system/actions. Not a nix fan, but they do use some flavor of that and have worked really well for what I've needed
- An open API that allows me to easily render information thanks to being built on shared standards I know (atproto). I've built bots and wrote a few features into npmx.dev that uses various things from tangled easily thanks to that.
- Ability to run your own knot(git server) and runner (spindles), or easily use the ones they host, but the cool thing about this is the social features are separate so even if you have a separate git server the issues/prs/etc are all coming from that shared social layer, not like they need to make an account on it to partake in the convo.
It's not perfect. It has alpha in the navbar and does feel like that sometimes. I am missing some features, but all in all I've really enjoyed using it for my open source work and will more than likely continue using it going forward.
One example is if you don't care anything about atproto, you can create a new account on Tangled's website that creates the account on their servers, but thanks to how atproto works it's just like you made one on Bluesky and can still interact with Tangled and everyone on the protocol for it's social features.
And it does seem to have the right feature set. Not sure which other social graph/network you could reasonably build a GitHub alternative around that would be less irrelevant....
Obviously Tangled can live completely separate from Bluesky, it doesn't even need to share branding. Protocols are just protocols and people who don't understand how email works often don't even realize that Outlook and GMail use the same protocols. I'm hoping for this future personally where ATProto is only something the nerds care about (and write code for.)
(Please don't respond to this post with ideological argument. I'm just trying to talk about Bluesky and ATProto.)
That may be the case, but anyone can use ATProto. Unlike X where reach is suppressed for ideological motivations, or Mastodon with the federation turf wars, anyone can use it, regardless of their politics. If you disagree with the ideology of the majority users and avoid it for that reason, it just perpetuates the problem.
Unfortunately, I suspect it is only that way at present because the "other side" is perfectly content to continue existing in a communications environment that prioritizes them, rather than one that is actually open.
Personally I found it much easier to avoid politics on Bluesky than on other platforms. Which is why it's been more sticky for me than Twitter was. And I put that down to having good feed control, and not being beholden to an algorithm that tries to keep me engaged.
Bluesky is mostly about day-to-day American politics, which means talking about how a court ruling is bad, how Trump did something stupid, or how the current admin is corrupt. The complaint I've read from most EU folks is how American day-to-day politics takes up way too much of the site.
I was unable to turn off politics without pretty much completely nuking my feed. I tried using mute words but that ended up just turning off most of my timeline. I build a US Politics labeler that worked pretty well, but ended up in a similar effect. Content outside of the politics on the network just isn't very interesting. Pretty much none of my hobbies are well represented there except some photography, and the photography is mostly about sharing pictures (which is definitely cool) rather than talking about shooting weddings or events or street the way it tends to shake up in other photography communities.
(Edit: That said, in the previous comment I was primarily thinking about the fact that the Republican party now explicitly supports far right and populist parties in Europe that are firmly outside the mainstream.)
That said, it sounds like your problem is more that other stuff isn't there? I am an academic, I followed interesting people in my field, and I am mostly on the feed that just shows me stuff from people I follow (plus a few curated feeds). So I didn't try to actively block stuff, and I have enough content to spend ten minutes every other day on the site and find new and interesting things. So maybe it's the combination of the niche I am after and the fact that I don't want to spend too much time on social media anyway that makes bsky a good experience for me...
Pretty unclear what your comment is trying to indicate but it sure feels very different to me, and I've offered some characterizations for why.
More generally, atproto is useful for all kinds of tech, solves a cold start social network problem. Aren't we reinventing forums, and tv watching, and book reviews, and trail maps, and photo sharing, and streaming, and d&d, and key attestation, and file sharing, and publishing, and note taking and containers and git hosting? Yes. Yes we are. https://atstore.fyi
(Under a common protocol set, in a way that respects users unlike everything else that's happened online so far.)
It's also abjectly awful. Sites change hands, change owners, change terms of service, change moderators... sites shut down. Taking "your" content with them. To accept centralized services is technically simple but it means accepting the infinitely long timeline of social and corporate complexity, that plays out, day by day & decade by decade.
As a user it is much simpler for me to have a PDS where my data is, that I control, and manage.
And it's all my data. I don't have to manage my data across thousands of different profiles on different sites. On that hostile unstable ground I've spoken of, each of these sites evolving and devolving in their own multi-variate ways.
It's perhaps sometimes simpler to have experiences that only exist in one site. But it's much richer and more interesting when different apps can interoperate, can adversarially interoperate/competitive cooperation. I also think that for users, once you get the hang of it, the patterns of having a PDS emerge, and provide a consistency of experience across apps, where-as each site has to be learned on its own terms: it's simpler having a single sign on from your PDS, having tools you can manage all your data with. (https://pds.ls)
We have atproto experiences like the just launching Disperse that work across the different apps, that bring them together. Multiple different apps do bookmarking using the same lexion, some with their own add-ons. A single site can't give you that ability to work across systems, to work broadly. You are reduced to working on a site by site basis. That's simple until it becomes overwhelming, at which point better tools becomes simpler: having a PDS leaves the door open to making these better tools, that work more broadly, across systems. https://bsky.app/profile/quillmatiq.com/post/3mkq2hzfjn22s
Whereas you might get stuck with a complex bad app hosted on one site, with atproto your data is yours to manage and you can use whatever app you please, and those different apps can attune to different user types: users who want a rich complex app might use one app, other folks can prefer a simpler less complicated app. Not being evolutionarily handcuffed to one company's app your whole life lets everyone explore not just what us "more complicated"/simpler, but a whole range of preferences that suits the user, that better matches what the user wants, that can grow and evolve with the users and their data, in a way that the "simple" centralized system by definition cannot enable.
It's so wild to me how much I see the dual of complexity. Rich Hickey talking about complecting is spiritual holy matter to me, is deeply cherished. But I see so so so many people who use aversion to complexity as a tool to turn off thinking, to not regard the complexity: endless Chesterton's Fences, no curiosity about why the fence might be there. There's such strong swelling of dark energy to tear down destroy and berate, the smugness of those so happy to criticize ram usage or to say software is all bad now. I dunno man. It really tires me out having such shallow engagement such superficial reactions.
Personally my soul craves a deeper connection with systems, wants to engage and explore, to sift what complexity brings interestingness from that complexity which is incidental. I've written a bunch of posts in this submission what I think is so so so interesting in the inherent choices of having an Authenticated Transfer Protocol, where you can send my data around over http, or web sockets, or MoQT, or IP over avian, or tin cans and shoe string, and still have it be clear to the world that that data is mine. Very few other systems offer that. ActivityPub certainly doesn't practice that widely, maybe doesn't offer that at all. All these systems we've built assume a host that stays online forever, that owns the responsibility fully. It's wicked deeply compelling to me to march into some complexity to liberate us from this ancient bitter internet constraint. Hello & thank you, complexity.
What points towards bootstraping being impossible? Sure, it's difficult, that's almost in the name so makes sense, but impossible? Especially if you're aiming for the federation-angle, then you should be able to build cheaper infrastructure, not the same/more expensive.
Even just the security concerns and having any confidence in the implementation is likely a specialized skill, so you'll need to convince someone to work for free or be able to pay them. Now do that for other major lines of work like UI/UX, Ops, and QA.
Take a look at all of the features from GitHub or any code platform that you'd need to get people to sign up these days (because they are used to GitHub/others) and it's a very tall list. Think something like https://www.enterpriseready.io/ but definitely larger (maybe 2x, 3x as large).
Oh and if someone writes a long rant about it and it gets to the top here, it likely becomes dead in the water, and you can't get the time back, making it a risky proposition. At least with VC money, you got paid a salary.
The aim doesn't have to be "Be the next GitHub", but something else, and that's just as valid and "successful" as anything else, as long as they survive as communities.
I don't really like services that stress how idealistic they are when this is the upcoming reality.
Better charge money for services or if you're truly idealistic start it as a non-profit. At the very least communicate what's the monetization plan.
A protocol isn't a good enough reason for investors not getting their payday. They'll just force aggressive and reckless changes to see a return.
The only way this kind of thing works is if profit isn't in the equation, or the easiest path to profit lines up with what's best for the customers.
This is why I'm skeptical about bluesky in general. Despite the protocol, it's incredibly centralised. If they wanted to make money it won't be long before they start putting up the walls around their garden. The same thing applied here as well, if investors demand a return the open protocol usage will shrink or become less open.
What you are calling "negativity" are genuine concerns to me. I was excited at the headline first. But as soon as I found it is VC-funded, it became a complete non-starter for me.
Look, I'm going to make my labor of love available to the world on your platform. I'm not going to earn a dime from it. It's just free work I'm gonna put out there. If I'm going to do that, I'll choose a platform where I can be reasonably sure that there won't be a rug pull 5 years down the line.
The problem with VC-funded projects is that there is definitely going to be some kind of rug-pull. Because the investors need their money.
The Git hosting services I use today are those where I can pay as a paying customer or I can pay as a paying member. As a paying customer, I know what I am getting into. As a paying member, I have the right to vote on decisions that affect the platform.
> The problem with VC-funded projects is that there is definitely going to be some kind of rug-pull. Because the investors need their money.
If you can tell me up front what the rug-pull will be in N years, then I could potentially look past it for certain use cases.
But if all you say is "I know you don't like VC-funded companies, but ours really is different because of X" then that's pretty much a slap in the face to users who've been through the hamster wheel of enshittification before.
It’s a bit long but should give you a really crisp picture.
Fossil gets 90% there with integrating tickets (issues), forums and wikis as part of the repo itself. When you clone a fossil repo, those are also part of the clone, and can be browsed offline on an airplane. Replies can also be written offline and, permissions willing, synced back up to the remote, either immediately or when the internet connection is regained.
I think this is the direction we should go in, but without hardcoding any specific artifact kind as part of the VCS. Instead, repos should be able to contain apps, which would define policies on what artifacts are acceptable, what rules they must follow, and who's allowed to upload and download them and at what times. The job of the forge would then be to execute those policies and render the artifacts for web users in whatever way the app desires.
With such a setup, moving to a different forge would entail nothing more than pushing the repo there.
This is going to be so nice.
I still would like to be able to send and receive issues and pull-requests, to/from anyone.
Your idea here seems to be about how to encode the data. You talk about web interfaces & who is allowed to do what. But it's not clear to me how my repo/forge gets my PR in front of you. The social networking technology feels like it has to come into play somewhere, and I don't see that as described in your system.
When you are wanting to join a federated network, you have two choices: join a pre-existing server thereby creating the exact same problem you are escaping, ie: a giant server that holds you to its whims, BUT you do get a big network to begin with.
Or you start your own server but your network is zero, discoverability is zero, your feed is empty, and you have to convince other sites to federate with you / not block you for the crime of being a 1 person server / etc.
Am I alone in this feeling or am I just doing federation wrong? (But also this may just be a problem / quirk of Mastodon)
I mean, practically no one is aware of any other ATPROTO provider other than Bluesky whereas the issue with AP is merely the lack of better implementations, so mastodon.social got the most attention and the hype died off with niche success.
In atproto, there’s two axes.
One is hosting. Bluesky offers hosting but some people host on their own (it’s just a Docker container with sqlite), some on Cloudflare, some on community-hosted nodes like https://npmx.dev and https://selfhosted.social. From app perspective it looks exactly the same way (unlike in Mastodon where “hosting” = “choosing a community”) and you can switch hosting anytime.
Another axis is apps. Apps aggregate from data from all hosts. Bluesky is an app, Tangled is an app, Leaflet is an app, Wisp is an app, Semble is an app, and so on. Those can all aggregate over the same data (which enables cross-app interop) but they don’t have to (eg Bluesky doesn’t overlap with Tangled much except that Tangled can reuse Bluesky avatar on login). Generally you don’t have people running copies of the same app (as in Mastodon) which is why there aren’t many “blueskyes”. But when someone has an incentive, they can. (Eg Blacksky is a complete fork including server and DB, allowing their own moderation decisions over same data.) Similarly you can build your own app on top of distributed Tangled data.
Hope that helps clarify why “atproto provider” as a concept doesn’t make sense. You have hosting, which is as distributed as you want, and you have apps, which anyone can make.
Hosting providers don’t need to discover other hosting providers. Data only flows between hosting and apps; not between hosting and hosting or apps and apps.
And if the answer is "yes" then at least when someone "makes their own app" can they easily use "Bluesky hosts list" + add special extra hosts (or remove specific hosts) so that the app relies on the platform, with the exception the disagreement point?
An app can choose to ignore/ban some users (or even entire hosting servers if they’re specifically created for network abuse). This is similar to how any web app may choose to ignore POST requests from spammers.
And yes, someone can decide to aggregate data themselves and provide an alternative app over same data with different moderation policies. In fact that’s already the case (Blacksky runs their own application server that mostly piggybacks on Bluesky moderation decisions but overrides some of them. There are also clients that ignore moderation altogether and show you the raw data from hosting.)
In ATP, your data is stored in the "Atmosphere", hosted on decentralized "Personal Data Servers" (PDS). The app then simply parses and filters that data. They can apply moderation actions by choosing not to display or read certain posts, but your data still exists and another app could choose to display it. Similarly, if the app goes down, your data is still perfectly intact in the Atmosphere.
It might then seem like the PDS is equivalent to an AP instance, but as mentioned, they are decentralized. Identity is verified through signatures, so if your PDS goes down, you can migrate to a new one as long as you have your signing keys. Therefore, the account belongs to you and not any specific server.
Every app can display public data from every other app because the source of truth is outside both apps (in hosting).
App owner can’t do bad things to your account other than banning you in their particular app. Other apps (even for same data) independently choose whether to show your data. So app owners are only in control over how your data is presented in their apps, not over your actual data.
Whereas in AP, each app’s moderators literally control your entire identity.
And in AP you can get banned from twitter but twitter mods can't ban you from reddit (because you have a separate account for each)
Domain here referred to the area of influence or control, like what the provider of a relay effectively has. The fact that other groups can run any element of the infra themselves doesn't change the fact that the drift towards centralization is much greater with ATP than with AP.
ATP has its own uses (quick aggregation) but it doesn't even attempt to solve fundamental issues of current ecosystem of social networking,. AP, on the other hand, offers the foundation for further development in the right direction.
The server costs for the frontend should be very low allowing them to operate basically forever and they are fed in by a series of other hosts
But I saw this project a few days ago and thought to myself "Hey, this one could actually work." The difference here is that the target audience has a pretty strong overlap with the part of society comfortable with self hosting services.
I don't need my whole network for this one to be useful, only that subset that's actually most likely to show up.
Tangled here is a great example. An existing user base of a social network was able to rapidly join and start using a new app, a git forge, to share repos and collaborate. PRs and comments show up like any other record on the network.
As for how the network works: atproto tackles the cold start problem by layering architectural concerns. Each person is their own server ("personal data server" aka PDS). But aggregation layers ("relays") collect all PDS activity they can find and relay it to consumers. Then applications such as Bluesky or Tangled ("appviews") can be built by reading records of interest (of the right "lexicon" type) from the relays. Each person owns their data, relays make all data available, appviews distill out user experiences appropriate to the records they cover.
We already have other decently sized GH alternatives such as Gitlab, Codeberg and various OSS forge instances (freedesktop, Fedora, Debian, etc) which could be federated and become a safe harbor if we were able to maintained project visibility and discoverability.
Even though it's federated, when development stops, who will be there to fix bugs and maintain it?
VC money is a means to an end. We're both Indian founders in Europe, and grants are nigh on impossible to find (4–12+ months for anything to materialize). VC is quite simply the quickest way for us to build a team, setup infra and accelerate development. We're also incredibly aligned with our investors on our goals (we took 6+ months to find the perfect partner for this).
I prefer slow and steady wins the race kind of project. Good luck!
I'm with the OP you're replying to. Taking VC is an albatross that means a large portion of devs will never trust you or use your services (outside of bleeding your funds dry).
If this place truly cared about community they should have made a non-profit or some type of NGO, basically anything with a true community governance model. Not the current model of caring about money over a community.
We currently live in a society that solely cares about money and seriously doubt devs want to continue uplifting the current system that only benefits the rich at the expense of everyone else.
How many board seats does the company plan on giving to the community to ensure enshittification doesn't occur?
There are plenty of examples of VC funded companies that care about community & don't "only care about profit". Bluesky is a good one (literally a community / social platform). That's such a black & white take it baffles me.
> Taking VC is an albatross that means a large portion of devs will never trust you or use your services
A "large portion of devs" (the majority) use so many VC funded services? Probably _most_ services devs use are VC funded. GitHub itself - was VC funded.
You can have an anti-VC opinion but you have to also live in reality.
GitHub was founded in a very different world. Would we start using it today is the question.
And look where we are now. What sane person would got looking for an alternative only to sing up to the same bs again.
OpenAI and Claude both took VC money and everyone on this message board uses them regardless of ~community~
Not all VCs are scum
The two reasons actual communities work in actual locations are: 1) because to some extent the people all live in a place and want the place to be nice for them and their (grand)children, so they are invested personally and 2) companies aren't set up to help communities. Communities are the ones doing community things. It's crazy to demand other people do work in a certain way when you're doing nothing.
Do you want software to become as closed source as mechanical engineering? No! So let's celebrate people building software that's open source, even if it's VC funded! They are awesome for doing that!
As a user who would need to invest time and effort in using Tangled, I think it's fair to ask to have the plan explained. I'd rather see explicit price for services than see enshittification happen.
We should celebrate people building open source stuff and in the public. The alternative is for the software tooling ecosystem to look like EE or mechanical engineering tools - all closed source, proprietary, and with super expensive licensing.
It's easy to take open source for granted - 'information wants to be free', but we are at risk of the open source movement dying with proprietary AI completely changing everything about software.
If we penalize people who are working toward the right goal, we contribute to that decline.
Come on.
While I was quite excited about some of the ideas being discussed in this project, it being VC backed is a complete non starter for me. Your claims of being built in the open don’t make me feel any better, you will eventually need to make returns for investors.
> GitHub? Where do we even begin…
The problem with GitHub is neither its UX nor its functions. Its downfall is VC funding but you made sure to only copy that and none of the good things.
> GitLab? Way too enterprise-y, and definitely not easy to self-host.
The only reason you don't offer an enterprise version yet is because atproto sucks and there's no way to make it private. Do you honestly think VCs are paying you to play with your strings and sheep? Your users won't pay for anything because there are already free alternatives that don't force them to join yet another cult. "Why should I join tangled? uhmmm it's like a worse version of everything but it has atproto! you like atproto don't you, 14 year old well established project will millions of users?"
> Sourcehut? So opinionated it alienates about 98% of potential contributors. Pretty great if you really love email, I guess.
Do you hear youself? In what world is tangled not extremely opinionated that alienates everyone but hardcore atproto followers? "pretty great if you really love atproto i guess".
> Forgejo/Gitea? Nice, sure. You can self-host—but without a shared identity, I still need to create an account on your instance just to send a PR.
It also works and is widely used and battle tested. Has a familiar UI and CI. Oh and apparently this newfound concept called private repos.
> Radicle? Honestly, it’s amazing. Purely technically, Radicle is far ahead of anything else, Tangled included. But the world—at present—just isn’t ready for full-on P2P.
The world is ready for appview + pds + did + ... yeah okay. Only hardcore atproto fans wants this bs.
But now you need to grow fast, which greatly increases the risk for me as your potential user, so you should at the very least write a post to make sure you're aligned with your users not just with your angels.
How are you going to use the money? What's the business model? How do you ensure you're around in 10+ years? How are you going to please your overlords with that business model and what will you do if they force you to squeeze more money out of the business?
I hope you succeed, because the competition is good for users, but VC-founding is a liability not a strength.
Those of us who use it. Tangled is a neat project and architecturally it makes a lot of interesting choices but code-wise it's relatively simple and from my personal forays in it I'd say pretty easy to maintain.
The majority of the codebase is loosely related go modules. Then some static HTML+CSS. And finally a small sprinkle of typescript to tie things together. And of course a bit of Nix for orchestration.
IIRC it all runs on a pretty trivial amount of hardware that a single person could currently host by themself.
Users' knots, spindles, and PDS (plus atproto at large) do the real heavy lifting infra-wise.
I'll make a proper announcement when it's anywhere close to presentable or even functional and I imagine the tangled folks will amplify that when I do.
At least this statement doesn't hold for LibreOffice. Their Online version, including "simple" HTML/CSS components, was archived because of a lack of maintainers. For their main project, the vast majority of contributions in the last release were made by former ecosystem partners (Collabora) or TDF staff. Volunteers only did a fraction of the work [1].
[1]: https://www.collaboraonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/L...
Document file formats are a fucking nightmare, especially the Microsoft ones, and needing perfect compatibility with them spanning a generation is hell on earth.
Firefox is a similar scenario but for the web and decades of "it works on the dominant browser but the dominant browser refuses to follow the spec".
And GNOME is a matter of varying levels of direct hardware support/integration and app compatibility across basically the entire personal desktop computer and laptop eras.
Each of those has a compatibility scope that's absolutely massive.
Comparatively Tangled is a greenfield project with no compatibility requirements other than "support git" and "don't break compatibility with itself".
Why does it need VCs? Why not company and corporate sponsorship like Ladybird?
Why should we spend our time on a developer tool that would be enshittified down the line when VCs expect 10x returns?
So even if they don't expect returns from a given atproto project, they are investing money (and therefore funding FTEs) in the ecosystem at large.
The investment isn't necessarily in any one of these projects in isolation. It's in the AT protocol at large.
You talk about corporate sponsorship like that's trivial to find. Trust me when I say we spent over half a year chasing down grants/sponsorships only to be met with closed doors, extremely long wait times for pennies. We'd also be required to keep our day jobs—which means less focus on Tangled dev, and ultimately very slow progress overall.
We debated VC heavily (we're both idealists after all), but figured we can make it work—it's ultimately the founders that make bad calls leading to enshittification. There's plenty of examples of VC-backed companies that haven't enshittified. Tailscale is an excellent one, and hence we brought on Avery as an angel in our round.
Perhaps maybe in a few years time, Tangled Enterprise would be available to compete with GitHub Enterprise and that is where the switch over happens for companies who want to move over from GitHub to Tangled.
I don’t know because somehow Tangled would need to make money somehow?
I hope Tangled becomes profitable enough to withstand enshittification, because more and more funding rounds and not meeting targets means giving up control and facing a repeat of what happened at Bluesky.
Decentralizing the code isn't an issue; cloning repo's between servers is so standard that any forge can import a code repo from any other forge.
The difficulty is ancillary stuff like issue trackers, wikis and MRs, but using a federated protocol for that seems ill-advised given the much weaker safeguards against spam. Mailing lists have a very large existing body of work on the matter of dealing with spam and a proven method of mirroring/archival. (Most git wikis are just git repositories with a different renderer.)
The main reason nobody likes doing git-over-email is mostly just because it's very user-unfriendly to set up (since modern mail clients typically aren't correctly configured to deal with them). It's a very developer oriented workflow in the worst way possible. A modernized mailing list program that automatically takes care of things like reformatting emails/not leaking email addresses to the general public would go a long way to make it easier to deal with.
Jokes aside, I think we need stronger arguments as to why something like activity pub is not good enough to solve the problem instead of trying to come up a new way of solving the "decentralized comms" problem.
(as I understand it) the data has to live in a PDS, PDS are keyed by accounts, so you are similarly stymied for collaborative projects? I guess AT Proto is still a real work in progress so maybe that story has improved since the last time I checked it out.
https://dholms.leaflet.pub/3meluqcwky22a
https://dholms.leaflet.pub/3mfrsbcn2gk2a
this is the key bit, atproto has this. sidecar services like knot can use service authentication[0] for authenticated requests.
AP isn't completely stagnant but there's a reason AT is still holding on to and accelerating that early developer excitement AP had. Maybe it's marketing, maybe it's money, maybe it's some technical thing. Maybe it's the community. Whatever it is, people seem to enjoy developing in the Atmosphere in a way I never saw on AP.
Of course VC funding and startup mindsets prefer a protocol that is easier to rugpull.
ActivityPub is email-shaped. Servers are inboxes sending messages to each other.
atproto is web-shaped. User repositories host data (like personal sites or git/RSS), while apps aggregate from repositories (like Google Reader).
Different topologies lead to different properties. Eg atproto lets user change hosting with no disruption in app experience. atproto also lets anyone build new apps aggregating over existing data.
ActivityPub doesn’t allow either of those things. It’s literally a bunch of small centralized coupled hosting+app services messaging each other.
Proper federation is exactly such bunch of small services messaging each other. On the hand, what ATProto leads to is at most a handful of large-scale providers each running the own portion of the network.
1) a layer of app-agnostic hosting providers + a separate independent layer of apps aggregating over data from those (like personal sites with RSS + aggregators like Google Reader)
2) a circle of flat instances where each node couples app+hosting (like many little Twitters)
One doesn’t couple hosting with apps, another one does.
Mastodon/AP model is (2), atproto model is (1). You should be able to see the outcomes from different network shapes.
In atproto, you can build a new app that works with existing data, but in AP you can’t. In atproto you can move hosting with zero effect on your identity or how you show up in apps, in AP you can’t.
For example, the social features of GitHub, which I like (like stars, browsing repositories by tags etc..)
But also For PRs, the way to make a pull request to a repo hosted at A, from your own node hosted at B.
And like other commenters said, you can do this workflow with git over email like a lot of projects to, but the main goal of the federation here to me is the user experience, the UI being able to link all of theses separate repositories, issues, PRs, etc, like everything was hosted at the same place.
A good system to download and migrate issues and pull requests is important, but that doesn't require federation.
I would love to see a smaller scoped federation of:
- Forks across instances, including for the purpose of PRs (Git)
- Activity feeds and notifications (Activity or ATproto)
- Authentication and some user settings (OAuth)The attacks span from forged DMCA takedowns, to national blocking orders, to suspicion that a contributor is from a sanctioned country (whether they still live there or not), to rogue project admins, and some other more creative attacks.
Project infrastructure should be distributed, with copies of data in as many computers as possible, across as many jurisdictions as possible.
We already have the web. The web already has OAuth. OAuth is already widely supported. IndieAuth already offers a very simple and standard approach to personal OAuth servers, if people really want to run their own identity server.
"Feeds" are perfectly doable using the web. It's already pull-based. We don't need another protocol to listen for changes at a URL. The web already has support for different content types and document schemas, we don't need to reimplement content types and schemas as ATProto "lexicons".
Also OAuth only handles auth and permissions and doesn't do anything for provided federated views of disparate data sources.
Also this isn't about identity either, you're really misunderstanding what this is about.
It is very much about identity. To use tangled you need to use ATProto and authenticate using ATProto – rather than using the existing open standard for authentication used by pretty much everyone at this point (missed opportunity to login to Tangled using GitHub). What's crazy is people still use the web to interact with tangled anyway.
And just because an existing standard exists does not forgo the creation of other standards that incorporate other features. I don't know how to build a social graph based on OAuth logins, but this would be fairly easy with ATProto.|
Genuinely don't know why you are even using HTTP when Telnet and Gopher are right there...
It's like records are born to replicate for better or worse. They get downloaded immediately and you have no control over where they go after that. Anybody can tap into one of the firehoses spewing them all over the place. But they're all linked together and if links break it's because nobody kept a copy of that record.
Other file formats don't work quite the same way. A git repo is easy to clone and pull from, but things like call graphs are language-specific.
It seems hard to say what apps this sort of replication is right for.
Most of the value I get from Github is having a single login that I can take from project to project. Independent forges can get the same value simply by supporting social login, without needing the complexity of a "forge federation" system.
So for tangled that means federation of issues, PRs, comments, follows, stars, and anything defined in an atproto lexicon. i.e. everything except the actual git repo itself. Those repos are singularly hosted on a given knot for the time being.
Now it's not a huge leap to imagine extending functionality to support cross-knot mirrors but that's not a supported feature yet. And of course you can always just fork a repo instead.
Federation would be closer to git, but not so decentralized that when one node goes offline you may not have any upstream to pull from, or not be able to find them.
Git doesn't solve availability. Federation may solve it, by staying closer to the decentralized philosophy. That's my read.
You may ask, well, that's like hosting forgejo or any other git server, where is the federation?
Tangled uses a protocol. So knots would adhere to that protocol allowing to pull from any upstream.
That's my understanding of federation. not saying tangled will go as far as figuring out discovery across their cloud hosted knots and self hosted infra. But that can be done, and claiming to be able to pulling from any repo with a single identy would imply just that.
To avoid this and make smaller forges as a block a viable competitor, there needs to be a singular network that solves discoverability and lets you find software from any host – like ForgeFed would.
There’s also the concern with the friction created by requiring newbies to log-into a dedicated forge for contributions (which ForgeFed solves), but I reckon that’s a secondary and related concern.
Having a better code search crawler that can grab data from independent git repos would be really cool. But being able to submit a PR from server 1 to server 2 is pretty unrelated to that.
people really do that?
If I'm looking for software/libs/etc, GitHub search is the absolute last thing I would even think to look for.
- your data lives in one place, your Personal Data Server (PDS). You can self-host this if you like - The AppView (in this case, tangled.org) aggregates the data from many PDS's into one view. - If tangled.org enshittifies, you can do all the same things from any other AppView -- tangled.org itself is not privileged in any way.
Social logins on independent forges help, but personally I'd rather have a single account to manage -- and the AT protocol means that any individual forge can go down, but the data remains accessible from other AppViews.
Looks like that's where knots come in -- you could replace "PDS" with "PDS and knot" in my earlier comment and it holds true, I believe.
Beyond that, maybe resilience when a project's host disappears, changes its policies, or gets blocked by a government?
Usenet and Matrix are notable examples.
The text side of Usenet is healthier, with a few gigabytes per day, and not trying to retain every message forever. Would it work if it was also the world's git forge though?
You seem to be referring to a particular set of binary-focused servers. I am referring to the protocol and network design, as an example of a federated system offering resilience.
(Also, I think your numbers are wrong, but I won't quibble about those because it's the network that's relevant to this thread, not the way some people happen to be using it today.)
> Matrix isn't.
It is. Blocking or shutting down any node in the network only affects that node. Others carry on without it. Another example of a federated system offering resilience.
The difference is that these same flows should work without needing to be github to github.
The basic idea is that you can put your repository on multiple GRASP-compatible nostr relays (GRASP is a sub-protocol that glues nostr and git together), so even if one server goes down you can transparently sync using the others. This means in effect 100% uptime if you choose reliable servers, as well as cryptographically-signed repositories, activity, issues, etc.
> Please be aware that GitHub and GitLab are exceptions to this Policy because they are subject to explicit licensing arrangements that pre-date, and thus take precedence, over this Policy.
GIT is a trademark of Software Freedom Conservancy and our use of “gitea” is under license.
Personally as just a random person in the community I've been building an appview for tangled that lets you interact with it as if you were just using git format-patch + git send-email + some MUA.
You can conceptually treat the tangled lexicon as a schema for encoding a git patchset based mailing list into IPLD/atproto records and vice versa. Doing this is slightly lossy but only barely. Otherwise it's pretty seamless.
Git IS the federation layer in this case.
the issue isn't mirroring of data, this is a solved problem. everything else that a forge does is a problem - issue tracking, PRs, reviews, CI/CD, authn, authz, secrets, audit trails, ...
HardenedBSD Is Now Officially on Radicle
The main difference was atproto wanted to tackle scale, so we went with a servers & aggregation model. Radicle is going for device-to-device networking as a primary goal.
You can host your git repo on their servers, or your own. You can host issues/pull requests/runners/etc on their servers, or your own. Regardless of where a repo is hosted, you can interact with it from a single account, and with that same account interact with others' repos connected to tangled. Plus it has native jujutsu support, though you can use plain ol' git if you want to, too.
Do I think a forge with those features necessarily needs to use atproto to exist, or that atproto is the ideal version of itself? No, not really. But the site is there, and it has some pretty neat features I want; I don't need to love the stack to use it, any more than I do Github's.
Spam/moderation is going to be the biggest hurdle to overcome with any distributed forge effort. It'll likely come down to some kind of web-of-trust/vouching system, but it's delicate balancing ease of access with not making it a slog to constantly manage spam.
Discord is not federated.
If I want to create 100 repos of vibe coded projects every month someone will have to pay for it.
At this point, just give me an honest version of GitHub that tells me what things actually cost. 5$ a repo, and another 1 per gb stored in LFS, cool.
I find Tangled's language a bit annoying because I'm pretty sure if this caught on it's even more single word concept rather needlessly. If the protocol is called Knot, then call a server a Knot instance or Knot server. If the runner protocol is called Spindle, each server which responds to that could be a Spindle runner. That'll serve two functions: It'll let people contextually hook the terms up against existing terms and still retain the option of evolving into singular word concepts if they prove successful enough for that to happen.
From my point of view as a non-native speaker, the frequent overloading of commonplace words add to the confusion of learning English. I don't like that. It's far from a big hurdle, but just big enough to earn a soft little sigh from me.
Your comment was the only thing that made me even care to comment: Isn't it rather unlikely that the person you're commenting on takes issue with a kink rather than any other reason why "knot" and "spindle" might be poor choices? Who knows, they might even have a good reason, but you started out with assuming bad faith and at least I tend to just leave conversations at that point.
Tangle: the appview server of the tangled network.
Knot: the git server that holds an arbitrary quantity of git repos.
Spindle: CI servers/runners/nodes.
Each one is the name of a component and the name for those components is pretty arbitrary.
That really proves his point though - the cute names are pretty much useless for an outsider.
The equivalent of a knot in gitlab is a gitlab instance or for forgejo a forgejo instance. There's just not really a clean equivalent.
A knot is a git server but it's not the git host/remote. The remote is the appview (which is the software stack called "the tangle"). The knot isn't just a storage backend either.
The knot is a little bit of a lot of things from the existing models so it just does not and cannot fit cleanly into an existing definition. Doubly so because what the knot does today is not the only things it will do. It will likely gain additional functionality in the future so to give it a reductive label now will only add to the confusion.
Instead it's a knot. That's what it is. And you can explain what a knot is if someone asks but at the end of the day it's a knot and what that means is specific to this project and network.
Fixed low cost but different UI: sourcehut.org
Getting my friends to feel comfortable moving ( so they can view the UX ) too will be a challenge.
Although it doesn't have all the "plugins" and other stuff that CI tools have today, it provides fairly "standard" points of integration
For more info: https://man.sr.ht/builds.sr.ht/
I agree the website is a bit confusing at first, but after spending a couple of hours on it you can easily see how it's organised, for example to display branches and files it uses the more basic git terminology (e.g. main branch -> tree, list of commits -> log, branches and tags -> refs)
Yes, GitHub is temporarily breaking under the increased load, yes, it's likely to still be a thing in 2 months, and no, it's unlikely to still be a thing in 12 months.
It's very unlikely a cool new thing will peel enough developers off GitHub in the next six months to survive long term as GitHub inevitably gets its ability to handle the new normal scale back.
`jj` is a wrapper around git and offers a much better dev-ex for managing changes.
it has features like:
- conflicts are first class citizens
- `rebase` is the default mode; there is no need for an interactive rebase mode.
- all descendant changes automatically rebase
- a much more intuitive version of `git reflog`. in `jj`, we have `jj op log`
- cheap branching: branches in `jj` are just tags (or bookmarks) that can be moved around
You are mistaken there: Git is just one (of currently two) backend of the jj version control system. It’s far from being a wrapper.
Also, the comment was aimed at a person who is obviously very invested in `git`. I was doing my best to offer them a description of `jj` they could swallow.
PS: pedantic people are annoying.
I used JJ for a bit, but I personally really, really dislike the anonymous branch approach it forces you into.
Branches are just useful conceptually, at least to me. For the same reason I like my documents grouped into folders.
Frankly - I think JJ just ended up taking up far more mental bandwidth than git. Simple operations need generated ids, commands require complicated input (ex - the entire revset thing), I have to be constantly thinking about the tool and its structure.
It feels really oversold to me. It's solving problems for people who live in source control, not problems for people who just want snapshots of code every now and then. Hell - just look at some of the example commands from the suggested tutorial:
jj new ym z r yx m -m "merge: steve's branch"
jj log -r 'ancestors(trunk, 2)'
jj new o
jj log -r '@ | ancestors(remote_bookmarks().., 2) | trunk()'
---
With all due respect, if the intro tutorial to your tool includes a command having to literally write function names in quoted commands, or run a command with fucking 8 (EIGHT!) arguments... You've jumped the shark.
Not trying to harsh anyone's buzz - if you like it... great, it's clearly quite powerful. But it misses the mark for me. I want "just powerful enough" with minimal mental overhead.
I wrote that tutorial, and literally only one of those is relevant to my day to day work: jj new o, which means “make a new change on top of the change named o”. Yes, if you remove the context that “o” is on your screen and highlighted, it looks complex.
It’s the same with the other “jj new” command: you’re producing a merge by giving it every branch you want to merge together. If you’re merging five branches into one, you need to provide five identifiers for those branches. It could not be simpler than this. And -m adds a message, same as git.
The other two are showing off the power of the revset language; you’re not typing this stuff in yourself more than once, and if you are, you use an alias so that it’s shorter and easier to use.
Sure I'm definitely not playing fair, but I am cherry picking from the intro tutorial you put together, so I'm not going crazy either :P
I think my primary issue is that jj feels like it wants to control how I work more than git does.
Mentally - I just don't want to have to think about changes as often as jj seems to want to think about them. And maybe it's an intro phase, or a thing you eventually build past (I only played with it for a week or two) - but it felt like a lot of focus went intro structuring my work, instead of doing my work.
Basically - the vibe I got from it was: if you're a person who really likes making checklists, or complex tickets with subtasks and groupings and labels - jj is something you're going to like. If you're just interested in writing code and not so interested in source control outside of the ability to occasionally "snapshot this folder"... it's probably not going to be your thing.
> The other two are showing off the power of the revset language; you’re not typing this stuff in yourself more than once, and if you are, you use an alias so that it’s shorter and easier to use.
This is exactly my point. I use git every day on the command line. I have ZERO aliases for it (seriously). If my source control tool has reached the complexity where I feel like I need an alias for commands in it... it's gotten too powerful. And git is definitely not "off the hook" here, it's absolutely got the same deep end, and if you live in that space, sure - jj might be really nice. But I strive to avoid living in that space.
basically: I don't want to do jujitsu, I want to do the occasional somersault and call it a day.
That said: you should use the tools you like to use.
This is a bizarre take, as most jj users just take your paragraph above and do a s/jj/git.
The benefit most people find in jj is that you can do stuff easily without having to think much.
There is no separate concept for stash and index (and yet you still have them in jj, and use them without giving them special names).
In principle, there's no real distinction between merge and commit.
You don't need to know the difference with/without --hard for git reset. You just do a "jj undo" no matter what.
Merge conflicts are not stress inducing. And if you're in the middle of an ugly merge conflict, you can just say "Screw it all" and quickly get back to before you did the rebase/merge - just keep hitting "undo" until you get there.
jj literally has a much smaller cognitive overhead than git does.
`jj` is a tool trying to amplify the strengths of git and strengthen its weaknesses. `git rebase` being just one of the many quirky commands. Yes, `jj` requires some rewiring of your brain, but once you get over the initial bump its pretty slick.
Also, I use `jj` everyday exclusively. And I have written `revsets` like 4 times in total.
It's so so so early. But I love how it moves from a world of maintainers & pull requests to a more ambient "this is what is working for me". I think this really is a next kind of leap. I don't know if we can keep relying on maintainer folks to guide each project forward like we have, if our agentic selves can be bandwidth limited & still go where we need to, channeling all our energy through individuals.
We need a federation of maintainers. A distributed of maintainers. Maintain ought be social. Tangled is great and I hope we can go beyond federation to many tangled, to widely widely tangled. And I hope we can go past maintainers too, past pressuring single people to have to decide it all. I think v-it really preceeda such an interesting agentic leaping off point that we are at, so interestingly.
Or in other words, what specifically does GitHub "do" that can't be done by using git as a backing store?
how would you rotate such a key and still convince everybody that you are still you?
> Or in other words, what specifically does GitHub "do" that can't be done by using git as a backing store?
how would you build a social graph of follows/stars and what not using user-owned git repos as a backing store?
> how would you build a social graph of follows/stars and what not using user-owned git repos as a backing store?
I'm just spitballing and depending on how you want to display it, you may need more - but if I want to "follow" you I submit a signed commit to your "follow" repository, similar if I'm staring a repo; and then your system issues a signed commit back to my "followed" repo.
Mastodon and email are the closest I've felt to a distributed system that works, but for oss stuff ... I think we're getting closer, but it's still a very hard problem to solve.
https://gitgrasp.com/ fixes this.
That’s misunderstanding the at protocol. There is a difference between a pds, where the data lives, and the appview. Tangled (the appview) happens to also provide a pds (they didn’t always do), but displays data which lives on other pds’s just as well.
My POV: Github actions are inconsistent in billing, security and require alot of attention to do right. Github has worse uptime than alot of free online videogame services, when most enterprise and business world leans on it for developers. Leaving a lot of users with terrible experience the past year having to constantly examine github firefighting for issues around availability, security, and billing instead of doing work that makes the company/people money.
Example walk through of securing github actions for ci/cd and managing SBOM python dependancy/supply chains (giant complexity) [1], Github has remote code execution[2], Uptime by 3rd party tracker shows 86% past 90 days. (First quarter in 2 years where they didn't have atleast one month above 90% uptime) [3]
[1] https://astral.sh/blog/open-source-security-at-astral [2] https://www.wiz.io/blog/github-rce-vulnerability-cve-2026-38... [3] https://mrshu.github.io/github-statuses/
This is likely on the back of Mitchell Hashimoto (Hashicorp founder) announcing he’s moving off of Github as well.
And really just years of Github feeling inconsistent, bad UX, no good solutions for open source developers in terms of AI spam etc.
Check a local repo and go to pr's, there's a big banner telling you there's an ongoing ncident
Wow, it was a really long time ago it started going down the lane of the chute, can't believe someone missed it, made big news at the time back in 2018! This was the turning point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17221527
I’m self-hosting with cgit, maybe I could move my private repos to SourceHut? Idk.
But you're right, the protocol doesn't currently support this.
Good validation imho.
So you could theoretically either fork it and use it as a good starting point, or (even better) contribute the ideas you have straight into Tangled itself! :)
Show HN: Tangled – Git collaboration platform built on atproto (1 year ago, 15 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43234544
Tangled, a Git collaboration platform built on atproto (6 months ago, 86 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45543899
That said the solution is simple. Open a secondary, or a new primary, account with another provider and add it to your project's list of remotes. Here:
git remote add <name here> <URI>
Boom, problem solved: do it yourself redundancy/decentralization. If you want to make this federated then write a file containing a variety of remotes per addressed location and a script to dynamically update git according to your catalog at every location.
Not if your CI depends on github, or if you have specific actions to review things, or if you use SSO because you're an enterprise, or....
Workarounds exist for each of these cases, but they add significant friction. That's not terrible if you're one person, but if you're an org? big problem.
Enterprise Cloud up time is 100% for last 90 days for most services, with a one being at 99.98 and one at 99.97.
Enterprise customers get an SLA
Edit: I absolutely support federated forges, including Tangled as well as ActivityPub based approaches like the (slow) progress to federate Forgejo.
Issue trackers can be self-hosted from fully mature applications via docker images. You might find something here: https://selfh.st/apps/
CI is typically actioned from a configuration file in your repository to a CI SAAS solution, which could be anything. Travis CI was popular for a long time. When I was big into CI SAAS my favorite was Semaphore CI.
I'd have a strong inclination to run such software if I knew that I was both helping host repos and getting paid.
As long as it’s like Steam and stays private it’ll be fine.
> SourceHut is already federated via email. We have no intention of adding ActivityPub support at this time.
Federated repositories is something very similar to paperless office, distributed authentication (OpenID), and distributed computing … it has been promised since forever, and nobody has ever seen it in the real life, and even less supported by somebody who matters. And yes, those who matter don’t help by sabotaging any efforts towards it.
nowadays it only cooled down, but that's far from "never seen"
Sourcehut does not matter, and federation of repos is already a real thing. The ones that don't want to federate just.. don't?
AI.
They're working on the scaling issues apparently due to huge demand.
I would be happier with my code distributely hosted on every participating node, rather than federating it on my crappy instance.
Also your wallet can be auth + sign so no need for third party auth layers
Github as we know it is gone, forever, it will never come back, except for niche hobby clones with .001% capacity that nobody will use. Agents are re-defining what software engineering means, they already have, right now,and are continuikg to do so, it's just that hackernews is lagging 6 months behind for some reason.
I don’t know their internals, though clearly they choose to tightly couple every major GitHub system to the AI offering, in my eyes that seems like part of the problem (plus Azure cloud migration on top because Microsoft sounds like a disaster).
Anyways, you sound angry.
I like to talk trash about Microsoft as much as anyone, they made insanely bad product descisions in the past (copilot in ms word is one of many) but this is not one of them.
If you push a lot of new features but your baseline is constantly failing, then something is wrong.
For example, in our company, most commits on main currently have 3-5 authors (we squash): 1-2 humans, 1-3 agents (cursor cloud agent getting started, ppl pulling it into cursor locally to continue, then review using copilot review, modify using copilot agent) then use a vibe coded github app offloading UI test execution to a beefy baremetal machine to adjust baselines.
Copilot review in particular is just so good, better than any agent i know (incl opus 4.7). It just allows you to skip the first few review rounds by humans and fix simple but hard to spot logical bugs, keep docstring & style up to date across the codebase, before you give it to a human - which means everyone can focus on writing more code.
Setting all of this up, at a massive scale, is just not feasible for any of these projects.
I think sovereignty over what information you consume is more important than ever. I had to use Twitter for work to get news about <topic> but the amount of virulent propaganda, totally unrelated to <topic>, that you end up absorbing is unforgivable. Even if you think you're smart and don't pay attention to propaganda, by design it hits you at the subconscious level so you can't block it. The only social media I have left is LinkedIn and I really hate it but it has made a direct positive material impact in my life ($$$) so I try to hold my nose while I use it. I really would rather use some kind of federated LinkedIn, but when I last checked nothing like that existed yet.
And with rebase, how are the commits immutable? Seems like MS GitHub found a way to mutably drop commits recently…
tangled distributes the rest of the stack - issues, comments, pulls, stars, etc.
The tricky part is the bugtracker and pull-requests. I don't really know how I feel about the Github issue tracker. In theory it's a good way for a community to report and manage bugs, but it's also what's driving maintainers crazy. Previously, in the olden days, you'd send an email to a mailing list and maybe get a reply, maybe got told to show up with a patch or bugger off.
To some extend Github removed to much friction, and while quick drive by patches can be great, they don't build much community.
https://blog.tangled.org/seed/
It always ends the same way.
enshittification.
Also:
> Bain Capital Crypto is an investor.
A crypto VC is invested in this.
This is not the solution.
Look how well that has turned out even though Bluesky is open source.
Tangled is not funded by the community.
It would be better if it was rather than it be owned by VCs.
??? Bluesky can make decisions, mistakes, or moderation choices you disagree with and you can just go to https://blacksky.community, a completely independent AppView with different moderation that was up for the entirety of a 24hr outage Bluesky recently had.
I'd say AT Protocol is turning out pretty well.
Bluesky PBC still has major influence of the AT Protocol.
> and you can just go to https://blacksky.community, a completely independent AppView
Swapping one broken chair for another broken chair won’t cut it.
Development and steering is subsidised by VCs funding Bluesky at this point. (especially a crypto VC)
Have you ever asked whats in it for them?
What plans are they going to put into the protocol?
I can see the AT Protocol shoving crypto payments or whatever in their insatiable quest for growth and ROI, because when the funding money runs out when BS miss their growth targets, this is what happens.
And for Tangled’s monetisation path, it is questionable.
So no.
Not a solution.
but your overall point is extremely valid. lurching from garden to garden is just stupid for something so critical and core to the way software is developed. there should be a meaningful core standard for the data (the commits, PRs, workflows, etc). If people want to innovate and change on top of that great.
that's how GitHub started, but they flattered and turned the screws and convinced everyone that using them was the only viable workflow. for that matter can't we revisit the notion of a 'forge', that's really some product marketers version of how things should work and be bundled and charged for, not anything fundamental.
"createIssue(title=string, body=string, labels=[string])" would be the same in Git's source code as it would be on a REST API server. The point of this is to standardize the software development lifecycle everyone uses around Git. That way you can do all the work we all need, with any VCS, without tight coupling. That's been the missing piece that nobody has made yet.
Want just the CI/CD component? Use that part of the schema. Want just the Issues? Use that part of the schema. Now you can write any tool you want, and just implement the features you want, and say "this follows the SDLC v1 CICD standard", or "the follows the SDLC v1 Issues standard". Much simpler to add extensions or support different use cases, without implementing everything you don't need. Yet everything's compatible.
We need that implementation-agnostic standard, so we can make transport-agnostic protocols, so different providers, clients, and servers can all talk to each other, without a hundred different bespoke "things". Rather than write your plugin-downloading app only against GitHub or against Federated-Whatever, you write it to use "httpSLDCs://some-server/v1". Don't want to use https? Use "grpcSDLC://some-server/v1", or "atSLDC://some-server/v1". You layer the application-specific protocol on top of the transport protocol, and express that in a URL. That's how we did 'federation' in the 80's/90's/2000's.
(also: did nobody come up with a better name? Tangled? Knot? you want your solution to be a tangled knot?!)
What prompted this? I can't see "tanglers" in the OP. Did you see them calling their users "tanglers" somewhere? Honest question.
Or rather, it will go over way too well.
Undoubtedly these various hosts will come under pressure from spammers and the like and they will react by placing extraordinary barriers around accessing the code.
That’s fine but it reminds me of the later stages of online forums, where it was impossible to browse most threads because you had to create an account and then build up community points until the screenshot of the kernel panic on the ZTE phone would be visible so you could see if it’s the same problem as yours.
GitHub was big and powerful enough to not need all of this but now we’re going back to the era of decentralization and I suppose with that come the pros and cons.
Alternatively, they fix these things now, so once CRQC arrives, it's already not a problem, and no gets compromised nor have to urgently update their software.
Tangles is, apparently, a gitlab-type project where PRs and bug reports and stuff are available on something called "at protocol" which is the bluesky social network "federated protocol".
at protocol competes with ActivityPub, which is mastadon
--
so you could, in theory, have a little federation of gitlabs peer-to-peering with each other, which is desirable for some reason.
So it's as if all the github pull requests were tweets, I guess?