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Comment by troglodytetrain | Hacker News Reader

I would describe it like this. We are all standing on the edge of a cliff. You can choose the 'Red' option. That option means you don't jump off the cliff. Or you can choose the 'Blue' option. You jump off the cliff. If 50% of individuals choose also the 'Blue' option then there will be a net to catch you so you don't all die.

So, now we agree? Red option it is every time.

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Yes, when you completely rephrase the problem you will have different sentiments.

The thought experiment demands that the phrasing that was used actually be used, and you don’t get a chance to show the dumb blue people how smart you are before they pick their button.

The problem isn't rephrased. Option Red = 0% chance of death, Option Blue = chance of death but maybe you can be the hero and save everyone.

So we all choose option Red and you, the hero, chose Blue. Congratulations, we will write some nice words on your tombstone.

It is rephrased. Any phrasing besides the original exists only in your head and not in anyone else’s.

The only reason I’m in my tomb is because you and people like you voted to kill me instead of voting to do nothing. Luckily for me, I’m dead and don’t care.

Congratulations! Enjoy your life with people who think like you.

Well, that is one way to rationalize, as I guess there is an infinite number of ways to do so.

The point remains, only one singular choice guarantees your own safety. And another has a Chance of death. Take the stupid choice because you think everyone else is also stupid? Thats your choice.

It doesn’t guarantee my safety, though. It puts me in a world where the only people left were so afraid of dying that they opted into a completely avoidable mass murder.

It may not have been completely avoidable though. What if the maximum number of people who would ever vote for blue is 30%

If that's the case then it's truly impossible to save them.

Your assumption is there is more than 50% of people who will vote blue or could be convinced to do so.

It's a terrifying thought that there could be such a deficit of empathetic people. But without any evidence you're just hoping based on your own beliefs that over 50% believe in blue like you do.

What if I'm not afraid of dying. But I'm just not willing to throw my life away unless there's decent evidence it could succeed and we could get above 50%

Then I’d say you either really deserve the world you get when red wins, or you don’t really deserve the world you get when blue wins.

I notice that this thing you and others call empathy doesn't extend to the outgroup: if anybody doesn't subscribe to it, fuck 'em, is the general sentiment.

I have no idea what you are referring to. This isn’t a question of ingroup or outgroup.

No idea! Well, I must assume good faith and believe you. To me it looks like you're labelling everybody you dislike as "probably a psychopath, best disposed of". I suppose that's consistent with saying they're not the outgroup, it's just a practical necessity or something.

In this instance of course what you're proposing is very mild: you think they should suffer one another's company - which you imagine would be a terrible experience. Unless you further imagine that they'd like it? But my impression was that you thought they'd have a bad time, and since they're your non-compassionate outgroup, you very compassionately don't care.

You read a bunch of things into what I wrote that simply are not there. I like plenty of people who would press the red button without hesitation. Their decision is their decision and my decision is mine. Might they “have a bad time?” Maybe. Maybe not. I’m certain I would have a terrible time, if I joined them in the majority.

How about this: everyone has a magic gun. The guns don't go off until everyone has pulled the trigger or pressed the magic disable button. After everyone has decided and the guns have fired, the bullets kill everyone that disabled their guns and then any remaining bullets collide with each other in the air, falling harmlessly to the ground. However, if a majority of people pressed disable, the guns never fire.

Hooray, it's mechanically identical but your preferred choice is framed negatively! I am very persuasive.

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