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Flipdiscs

flipdisc.io

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Andrew Zolty under the artist name BREAKFAST has created quite a few stunning kinetic artworks with flipdisks.

Just one example: https://theartistbreakfast.com/works/traverse

Also created a larger more sculpted derivative the „brixel“ a rotating brick as pixel. Eg https://theartistbreakfast.com/works/oceans

This is the product they commercialized: https://flipdisc.co/

Last I heard a number of years ago it’s around $2000/sq ft. Around the same price scale as mid range LED wall modules.

> "Oceans" is a kinetic sculpture that embodies the dynamism of the world's oceans within the arid landscape of Las Vegas. Crafted from 483 motorized elements known as "Brixels," this piece mimics the movement of the sea's surface. The sculpture is alive with the pulse of the planet's waters, ...

All I can see are bars of gold.

I agree... it's gorgeous, but it's missing the ocean's colors.

BREAKFAST (AKA Zolty) here. The “ocean” aspect of the piece is in how it moves and the real-time API data that drives the wave-like motion. It grabs live tide data from a different coastal city each minute and changes based on that. The gold and marble bricks took inspiration from the Fontainebleau art deco style of their original Miami hotel (this piece lives in their Vegas location).

Here’s a clip of it moving (doesn’t read so well as a static image): https://theartistbreakfast.com/works/oceans

Can someone explain the “Fontainebleau art deco style”? I have been to Fountainbleau and I remember it as much older renaissance style architecture and geometric/baroque gardens.

Whoah!

Sorry, I was half joking, half of me gets the metaphor, but the other me is seeing a wall of bricks of gold in a Las Vegas casino and gets another metaphor.

Either way it's beautiful!

Interesting, that "fade away" effect looks almost exactly like what I see when I get a migraine aura.

It is so sad to see both this and the title "It's ok to abandon your side project" on the front page while I have three flipdisc displays sitting in the basement without the time and equipment to get them up and running.

No, it's not ok to abandon those flipdisc displays! :(

Admittedly I read neither of the articles. But who doesn't sometimes get caught up in the conincidence of titles on here may vote me down :D

Unless you've thrown everything away, your side project isn't abandoned, it's reprioritized.

You'll get to it when you get to it. After 2 years, I've just been working on my flipdiscs this weekend!

Maybe we should both stare at walls more than scrolling on HN.

There is a fairly impressive installation of these at Heathrow airport in Terminal 5 outside the BA lounges. Struggling to find a decent video on YouTube, but this one’s not terrible https://youtu.be/G03WA30yFMI?si=hx5aLlrj_BH21yr2

The Climate Pledge Arena in Seattle has an installation too:

https://www.pippakelmenson.com/work/climate-pledge-arena

https://www.coleorloff.com/specifically/pitchbook

https://www.behance.net/gallery/136172923/Climate-Pledge-Are...

There's also one at the entrance to Google's High Line Cafe in NYC (above the Chelsea Market).

I did the same for my office and bought used LAWO flipdot panels for this. Screenshot of the thing here: https://github.com/aivju/flipdotz

Nice. Seeing that gives me memories of flight displays at airports.

They've been slowly replacing the flip-disc displays on the buses where I live with LEDs and LCD panels which has been such a shame. There is a beautiful mechanical satisfaction to a panel of flip-discs inverting and I genuinely find them easier to read.

Yes, even the ones that have an LED behind each disk which are on in the dark. This display [1] is the same but in the dark [2] you see the LEDs instead.

[2] https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/...

[1] https://cdn.unitycms.io/images/2padXosoqh99o13dcrN3co.jpg

The LED / LCD displays are probably lighter (less heavy), and someone figured they can save 0.001 gallons of diesel a year fleet wide if they replace displays.

Net Zero Fatigue is real.

Much more likely, I think, the mechanical displays had some maintenance cost which cheap LED displays will not.

You've confabulated a reason why they replaced them, linked it to initiative then complained about them doing it all in two sentences. A gold medal in mental gymnastics is warranted here!

They’re probably just cheaper and require less maintenance.

You’re not doing your cause any favors by projecting everything on an ill-fitting frame.

They seemed less reliable than LEDs. When they were common here they would always have tens of dots stuck in the wrong position.

I'd imagine the vibrations didn't do them any good

Interestingly, I've never noticed any stuck discs. I'm pretty observant of them as well, because I think they're so cool.

The ones here could have been nearing the end of their life to be fair. They have basically all been replaced with LED signs now.

This is BREAKFAST (AKA Zolty) mentioned above.

The old panels had diode issues. It wasn’t the mechanism failing — the simplicity of electromagnets means they last an insanely long time, significantly longer than an LED. The diodes were just cheap and undersized. If you have a stuck disc on an old board, 99% chance you just need to replace the diode. If it still flips but gets stuck on one side, a pin has gotten sticky and needs graphite applied.

The Luminator MAX 3000 is an interesting hybrid between a flip dot display and an LED display. I find it very pleasing to the eye and easy to read, particularly at night.

In front of the flip dots is a frame that has a mini-LED that faces and front-lights each flip dot. This gives the appearance that each flip dot is glowing.

(1) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ru1DSs1tjQ

If I’m not mistaken (their pricing is a bit hard to find), nine of the flip fits display modules will set you back ~$5000 alone, plus the rest of the hardware. While I love the idea that is a lot of fun budget for other projects…

Thanks, I've been looking for that. Interesting how nowadays it's orders of magnitude cheaper to buy a 4k 65" panel and fake the dots (and sound) on it.

I recall a comment from somewhere that it was cheaper to put up a large monitor over a hole in the wall than to pay someone to patch it...

Haha, that actually sounds plausible, but, since monitors are backlit, your hole will be glowing.

Nobody outside a gas station wants a glowy hole.

You can put an OLED TV over a hole in the wall and it's cheaper than getting someone to fix the drywall.

This is insanely cool, the noise they make is also really satisfying!

What was the cost/time breakdown of the entire project because the flipdisc prices are hidden behind quotes and it seems like it would take quite a lot of time to complete the whole display!

The prices I’ve seen mentioned are around USD$3-5 per “pixel”.

Similar to all the ePaper projects that show up here, they’re expensive but cool gimmicks.

Whole dollars per pixel is insane!

The whole mechanism looks very 3d printable... I wonder if one could design one with PCB coils and a large 3d print only? If so, cost could probably come down to cents per pixel...

You'd probably also need a single 'C' shaped piece of steel for the magnetic flux path, but you might be able to find a supplier for the right shape already used for something else you can buy in large quantities very cheaply (eg. Steel staples).

These mention 25-30 fps, so the mechanism may cost a bit to be that sturdy.

I wonder if anyone makes cheaper versions that you're only supposed to update at 1 frame per minute or less...

This fella gave it a shot. https://hackaday.com/2021/05/29/3d-printed-flip-dots/

There’s a very large one of these at “Climate Pledge Arena” in Seattle. Perhaps 8 feet tall and 16 feet wide. Pretty cool, but stuck pixels are even more annoying when it makes you want to reach out and poke them.

I use quotes because it will always be the Colosseum to me, where I saw the Butthole Surfers, Dead Moon and Nirvana. Don’t get me started on the Kingdome.

That arena famously has dead pixels on its video boards hanging over the ice as well!

> as a pleasant bonus, they emit a sound like rain hitting a window each time one of the disc flips

must be vrey annoying very fast if you have to sit next to it all day

I suppose it would be much more quiet if the disc stops were magnetic with no actual contact, but that would add a lot of expense.

Mikeselectricstuff did a 26minute deep dive into flipdots a few years ago which is worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u26N-pQY2U4

That display needs some Conway’s Game of Life action pronto.

they have a gif at the bottom of the article which looks like game of life

https://github.com/simpsoka/office-flipdisc/blob/main/scenes...

Dunno where your link is going, but yeah I see the gif at the bottom of the article now.

Still, I wanna see and hear it on the display.

I came here to say Bad Apple

I bought a flip dot display on eBay and now I am stuck with the old thing and my lack of knowledge to make it work. Here's a great resource about technical details (only German though) https://radow.org/flip-dot.php

EDIT: "They have high readability, a long lifespan, and achieves anywhere between 25-60fps" - I think you can't achieve 60fps with a flip dot display.

Depends how much power and noise you're willing for it to make!!

Remember that texas instruments DLP technology which is in use in pretty much every office/home cinema projector is effectively micro flip-dots micromachined in silicon, and that can operate at ~10,000 FPS.

With my rudimentary physics knowledge I'd think that smaller structures can be moved faster than bigger structures.

EDIT: also when you google a bit you can find a guy who maxed out flip dot displays at 30fps (which honestly I thought would not be possible either)

Uhm yeah they are a lot smaller. That makes a difference obviously.

They can't if they are wired like they usually are from the factory, because they are wired in a matrix where you can only update one row at a time. They did this to save on IO lines/output transistors, I guess. So you have to wait for the whole screen to finish drawing before beginning the next frame.

But you can flip them fast/in parallel if you have a driver for each disc:

https://pierremuth.wordpress.com/2021/02/17/flipping-dots-fa...

I've been working on one and I have and I am trying to use an H-bridge per disc. It's possible to find very cheap ICs; for my 308 discs, it only cost $10 for these (not counting the additional time/costs that comes with coming up with 616 IO lines, getting a PCB made, dealing with power issues, etc):

https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/C5795599.html

There's also the Atkinson dithering (made by Bill Atkinson) which produces very neat results.

(2024) It was a Show HN last time - maybe the author is still around (455 points, 123 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40789672

I'd like to see someone play DOOM (or any game, really) using that flip disc screen!

I was thinking of Bad Apple!![1], but maybe that's too niche.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtutLA63Cp8

You made me wonder just how often Touhou is even mentioned on HN, so I did a quick search and... less than 15 results! (not counting dupes).

Niche indeed...

That seems weird. Bad Apple is up there with doom in terms of "make it run", and a few high profile-ish hackers seem to enjoy touhou stuff (drew devault off the top of my head)

Not niche enough :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NXSMdUH_Cg

The first thing I dig in the article was a search for "bad". Glad I'm not the only one.

I wonder if you could have it play the music as well by the right timing of flipping, just like how the Floppotron works.

Someone on reddit did it: https://www.reddit.com/r/arduino/comments/1rcs8dc/flipdot_di...

You're in luck: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5NXSMdUH_Cg

Tetris seems like a good fit -- given the frame to frame changes are minimal adjacent pixels, the responsiveness should be acceptable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSeQucVAjLg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6rfI28zJ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSdiop75jIg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQVp-srqRBY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJU2-1X8kHQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiFSnoJQU7I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWIKOjGXTEM

I remember seeing those at the airport when I was a kid it was fascinating, one of the screens was close to the ground and I got over the chairs just curious how do they flip, now we have the boring soulless LEDs.

I have a question about those wire ferrules they said they were using:

I occasionally connect wires to terminals, but - I've never used ferrules: I just self-twist the thin strands, push the thing in, and use the lever or tightening screw depending on the terminal's mechanism.

Why would I use a ferrule? Or perhaps, under what circumstances is that advised?

PS - Link to the ferrules they mentioned: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R6QQ7MW/

Ferrules often have insulating shells around the base which are good strain relief.

Ferrules also evenly distribute the clamping force and prevent crushing of the strands.

Ferrules solve the problem of having to align the threads every time you re-post them in a terminal block.

I wonder if crushing is more of a phenomenon when you have a lever you're encouraged to push down to a flush position, rather than a screw you tighten and have tactile feedback regarding the difficult of tightening further.

The wire will crush over time and the connection will become looser. That will increase the resistance of the connection and in high current applications will cause heating. If you're really unlucky it will cause a fire.

I guess that's theoretically possible, but - I've not known this to happen anywhere in my lifetime, and I've not seem use of ferrules in wire terminals anywhere.

Crazy seeing this posted today. I learned about flipdiscs from ChatGPT just a few hours ago because I'm trying to find a text display type you could build or at least repair yourself. Don't need much just ASCII with enough lines for running commands and output.

I think flipdiscs would be too expensive. Honestly a teletypewriter might be the most realistic, but wastes a lot of paper.

Any other suggestions?

A plotter with a whiteboard marker would be interesting

I love physical displays like this, or split flaps. Anything that is not a screen, and keeps it's display without power. I keep getting ads for vesta boards, but I just can't justify the expense.

I have notebook from ~15 years ago full of pie-in-the-sky ideas for different types of displays. This was before I got a job that took up all of my attention span.

It's crazy that I was trying to find good resources for split flaps and then flip discs just yesterday and was just thinking, damn, there aren't any good or recent information about flip discs, just decade-old proprietary stuff to be found Great work!

Popular in UK train stations until very recently. I suspect that there are still a few out there!

The author mentions SubSpace (the computer game, from the 90s), and the limited pixel budget for player banners in it.

It would be interesting to see if you could run a pared-down version of that game on a display like this.

I think a missed opportunity on the website would be to have a flip button to change the colors pallete too! White background black text and flip back to the current one!

Very cool project!

Is the last photo on that page, describing the cabling, a screenshot of another photo displayed using flipdiscs? that is a whole lot of discs!!

I think it's just a simulation of what it could look like if it were flipdiscs.

Damn, I really wish there was a T in "Quick jazzy vibe flows from exploding pixels", 'cause the sentence is just cool!

From the exploding pixels and then you're fine. You needed an H as well anyway.

It makes me really anxious that the 3d model in the header is not in quaternions and i keep getting gimbal locked

Lookmumnocomputer did some nice work for thismuseumisnotobsolete with flip displays.

See on YouTube or visit in person

If you're into electromechanical machines, he also has a working telephone exchange and a bunch of videos where he restores its various components and explains how it works (I still don't quite understand how it works though). That's the original reason I subscribed to his channel, but his wild musical contraptions are also cool.

I would love to see the cost of the whole hardware mentioned. I guess it would be around a 1000USD

Looks like this would lend itself naturally to sorting algorithm demos.

I wonder how small they can be. Would be an amazing watch display.

Technology is so cool and you're using it to build a mirror. Would have loved to see generative or other weird graphics.

Did you read the article? The author goes into several applications beyond just that.

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