Smart TV tracking raises privacy concerns (2024) | Hacker News Reader

Smart TV tracking raises privacy concerns (2024)

ucl.ac.uk

51 pointsnowflux59 comments

I took out the Wi-Fi module before I ever powered up the TV. I don't want to have to trust that a guest won't try to connect to their own hotspot to watch their Netflix on my TV.

If I had to buy a smart TV, this is what I would do. It's the only way to be sure.

Sadly, the purchase would still reward the company for making a spyware screen, and signal that I find it acceptable, which is why I plan to avoid them forever.

I think these TVs are subsidized by the ad revenue, so you might cause them more pain by buying one and never connecting it.

p.s. if you like this idea use the Ad Nauseam plugin for firefox et al in lieu of ublock whatever. It clicks on all ads it hides, polluting metrics, wasting money.

it also tells you the estimated cost of all ads it's clicked on your behalf.

You're also going to be profiled based on every list imaginable. Have fun when companies think you're an extremist and into wild things like fetishes.

Perhaps, but for that i use TrackMeNot plugin, which gets a list of headlines then does headline remixes/mashup and googles/searches for them on a set schedule of your choosing. you can choose to disallow words that would be illegal to search for in your jurisdiction.

also, oh no! Coca Cola will think i like latex? Shoot, this ruins my retirement plans.

> oh no! Coca Cola will think i like latex? Shoot, this ruins my retirement plans.

Oh no! Now you didn't get that job because the company farms out their background checks and that company uses these metrics to determine different types of risks (social risks, financial risks (you must really like gambling after clicking on all of those gambling ads), etc). Oh no! Now you're on an extremist list and being investigated. Oh no! Now you're paying more for the same products because you're on a list of people that companies think will pay more. Oh no! Your social score is tanking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

Yea this isn't a thing and is just another scare tactic that gets dragged out when Ad Nauseum is brought up as the better solution. It's banned in the Chrome because it works

I don't know, some of the other Black Mirror episodes ended up being right on the money.

Ah yes, "banned because it works"... That's why lots of stuff is banned /s

Cool

Rad

What sort of sites do you think i visit?

also good luck doing price discrimination when i'm at a regular store in meatspace. i don't use any apps for any brand or store. If there comes a day where it is possible to "update prices in realtime" in stores, before i get to the register, and it's somehow legal for them to charge a different price at the register than it says on the shelf; then i won't shop at that store.

all stores are like that? doubtful. the farmer's market isn't.

I also don't particularly care if some employer passes me over because of what ads i click on. If any of you work for a company that does this, can you let us know the name of the company?

Also, oh no, not an investigation where nothing illegal happened! What will i do? Oh right, "i don't answer questions unless my lawyer directs me to. you can call him, here's his card"

reply to your "/s" comment below: it's banned because google is an adtech company that also makes "the most popular browser." I have no idea what strings ublock origin (or whatever they changed the name to this week) pulled to still "technically" be allowed (or was allowed, a few years ago); but ad nauseam uses the same lists as ublock, as well as possibly others.

I don't use chrome, and haven't for like 6 years; it isn't installed on my PC and it isn't my browser on android (when allowed to make the decision.)

But i cannot imagine the thought process that got us here. How did you come to believe all of the things you typed?

I believe those are possibilities and plan accordingly.

I pay attention to what's going on and care - it has worked out very well for me in life.

https://xcancel.com/heynavtoor/status/2044433988312560051

I'm curious to know whether my Google TV is surveilling my use of Netflix and other apps. If I watch something via XBMC streaming does it sample it?

It would be a shame if I had to have my own HDMI generator go back to switching inputs.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2409.06203 the study

Instructions given from the twitter thread but are probably slop:

Samsung:

Menu → Settings → All Settings → General & Privacy → Terms & Privacy → Turn off "Viewing Information Services"

LG:

Settings → General → System → Additional Settings → Turn off "Live Plus"

Settings → Support → Privacy & Terms → User Agreements → Turn off "Viewing Information"

Roku TVs (TCL, Hisense, Philips, Insignia, Onn, Sharp, and others):

Settings → Privacy → Smart TV Experience → Turn off "Use Info from TV Inputs"

Settings → Privacy → Advertising → Turn off "Personalize Ads"

Sony:

Settings → All Settings → Turn off "Samba Interactive TV"

Vizio:

Settings → All Settings → Admin & Privacy → Turn off "Viewing Data"

Amazon:

Settings → Preferences → Privacy Settings → Turn off "Device Usage Data", "Collect App and Over-the-Air Usage", "Interest-Based Ads"

FWIW, I would not trust LG here to actually do nothing even after turning all the elements off, their GUI is especially "web"-like. Just leave it disconnected.

I don't understand why people can't just get a secondary device for accessing live streaming programs. There's numerous devices you can buy that do it.

TVs should not be connected to the internet. The incentive structures are just too bad against the user.

How do you know the TV will not also screenshot the HDMI input? That’s what I would do if I were looking to further milk the rubes buying my tv.

It seems like they do? That’s why gp suggested disconnecting the Wi-Fi entirely.

The TV can take all the screenshots it wants in that scenario. It isn't connected to the Internet

They'll probably start making them with sim card and modem at some point. I can picture it now on a future ebay listing: faraday cage for your tv - only 99.99!

I thought texas sued them all because they did it even after changing settings.

Those preferences get turned back on after firmware updates, which is yet another reason to disconnect them entirely

Just connect your TV to WiFi then block it at your router/wifi AP.

Though at some point they'll just start using random MAC addresses Then you have to ensure that you block all external access for stuff that didn't get an IP from your DHCP server. Which probably won't work with IPv6 because it could just assign itself an IP and go.

How would you block a random device on IPv6 that's generating its own IP?

> How would you block a random device on IPv6 that's generating its own IP?

If you’re referring to your TV presenting itself as a random device with a random address, you give it the WiFi info to an AP that you control which has no network connectivity at all, via vlan separation, routing rules, or just by the physical AP not being connected to any other network.

I have UniFi stuff and I created another AP on those which can’t talk to anything, and is unencrypted, and if my tv wants to use an insecure WiFi network it can try to use that one and fail because there’s no internet connectivity. I should just remove the WiFi module or antenna.

(2024) sources instead of twitter threads:

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2024/nov/smart-tv-tracking-raises...

https://arxiv.org/abs/2409.06203

Dumb devices have gotta be a billion dollar market at this point.

I bought a dumb 4K TV years ago. When I looked not too long ago, I couldn't find any for sale.

Unfortunately most just don't care, and a truly dumb tv will have to be so expensive no-one will want to buy it.

People tend to really underestimate the value of their personal information, so they don't really realize how much their modern tech is subsidized by personal information.

The thing I don't get is, smart TVs suck to use regardless of the privacy issues, so why isn't there competition to at least make them good? It's gotten to the point where just turning it on and switching to HDMI 1 is sometimes difficult even for people who understand tech. Samsung TVs are the worst about this despite not being the cheapest tier.

What is the framework of the TV's these days? I still have a 2011 high end Samsung that has no Wifi, but this thing is not going to last forever.

Seems the only viable solution nowadays is computer monitor + converter box and/or computer + speakers. There's ~$150 32" monitors nowadays, even a few non-TV 42-43 inch monitors if you're willing to spend ~$700-1200.

TCL roku TVs are cheap and you can just tell them you don't have an internet connection (or whatever) on first setup. I have no idea if TCL or Roku have pulled a samsung/sony/visio - i forget which - and connect to "open wifi" to phone home.

I got tired of my TCL Roku taking so long to turn on and switch inputs and turning itself on and off to update. So i factory reset it and told it "no network". works fine.

Sceptre makes dumb TVs, too. https://www.sceptre.com/ - i have been buying their panels for something like 24 years. they're "decent" nothing super remarkable, but they're just dumb displays. at least mine are.

And finally, find a projector that does what you want. they're usually so compact they don't have roku/other smart stuff. I use a wall, we used dark brown or black paint to frame out a 95" screen roughly in between 16:8 and 16:9 aspect. wash the wall or sand lightly and wash the wall, then apply Behr Silver Screen in the matte-est behr base. I personally did three coats, it took less than a quart, so you only need a quart for ~100" with 3 coats. It looks like a movie screen when it's off, and it looks like a TV screen when the projector is on.

observe a random clip of it in action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG6VJ9WlLcs note i know there is trapezoid, i fixed that later by ceiling mounting the projector in the middle as opposed to slightly to the side. a more expensive / nicer projector can actually transform the image trapezoid to fix this, and the most expensive can do it on their own! mine has vertical trap but not horizontal.

pitch black room and vibrant colors (powanqatsi maybe) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYrsm2B9UeY

Since TV screenshots are used for advertising purposes, I'd like to know if the same thing happens on mobile phones.

Maybe, but since I'll never connect that sucker to a network, it'll just have to sit and brood on them.

They're increasingly turning to contracts with Comcast and AT+T so that even if you don't have them on the network, they can phone home on the neighbor's wifi.

Do you have additional information about this? I'm having trouble finding reporting or discussion on it.

That's because they understand how creepy it is. But you can find plenty of pieces about what great things it's doing for local municipalities, who have comparably small budgets, and read between the lines.

https://corporate.comcast.com/press/releases/comcast-expands...

Don't forget they can just drop a 4G modem into the TV too.

but also don’t forget that nobody has yet.

Zealous Autoconfig https://xkcd.com/416/

lots of hacker news folks provide information:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46294456

I have an open WiFi network provisioned which can’t reach the internet or even outside its own VLAN. Some tvs will automatically connect to open APs and use them, so I made my own which has the strongest signal of any of them.

Otherwise, TVs in my house do not get the WiFi SSID or password. I also don’t plug in Ethernet unless I need to do a firmware update, which I did one time.

AppleTV connected and am happy.

If TVs won’t come in dumb form, I’ll separate them from their remote brains and make them dumb.

I changed the WiFi password as never told my Samsung the new one. I expect this will work for a year or two until they figure out how to force their way onto the network.

Do you just use a Roku to watch stuff or what?

There's a wonderful thing that we used to have and still do have, but might be going away soon. It's called "terrestrial television". For decades people streamed programming over the airwaves, straight off the antenna! For free! Ad-supported of course, but... no tracking! (Actually opt-in tracking with a Nielsen People Meter.)

You can also use a DVR to record terrestrial broadcast TV, and there's even tools to automatically skip ads: https://github.com/Protektor-Desura/jellyfin-dvr-comskip

What is of value to watch on any of the streaming platforms?

Netflix content is atrophying. Disney Plus is dying. To say nothing of Hulu or others.

I watch youtube. The content is way more varied and interesting and less sanitized.

Apple is producing multiple series that each could be in contention for a top spot on best sci Fi TV shows of all time.

Which ones?

Dunno what gp likes, but IMO Foundation is incredible.

Foundation, For All Mankind, Silo, Pluribus, Monarch. See was pretty good but is over

Invasion isn't as good as the above but still better than a lot of shows before it.

Severance second season made me question the show's quality sadly

Amazon fire stick

Amazon sidewalk and related technologies will likely allow devices to bypass needing your network at all in the future. The last TV that doesnt support these features will probably be my last.

They will probably eventually upload stuff through people walking by with Samsung phones or smart tags.

look up 5g miot. 6g will be worse.

There it is. Thank you very much.

Right? Couldn’t they exfiltrate this info through BLE?

Thank god the EoH never became a thing, despite being in the HDMI standard

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