Why aren't we all using Japanese toilets?
priceonomics.com
priceonomics.com
Toto does not have that relationship with the person responsible for picking your toilet.
Why does Toto have that relationship with the guy who picked my toilet? They've got a sales rep in Ogaki. His most important job is making sure they know of every business start for a construction company and that every time it happens the company gets a wreath (that's considered auspicious and is socially mandatory to buy when someone close to you starts a shop) and the principals get invited out drinking. Toto is, naturally, buying. The sales guy will not be so gauche as to mention "Say, apropos of nothing, do you do cost-plus projects? We have a proposition for you which will put $100 extra in your pocket for every bathroom you build."
Edit: Not every, of course. And the number would vary by region of the US. Excuse the universal quantifier :)
I don't understand why bidets are fringe :(
Wouldn't this have been the case in Japan in the early 80s too, when Washlets first came to the market?
Edit: After reading the other comments, it is apparent that this is probably a good idea for primary users too. Makes sure the job is done right.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0011YSEUC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...
Although it does come with a remote (with LCD display), water temperature adjustment, volume control (for your iDevice), warm air-dryer, and air deodorizer.
It looks like it's perceived as a modern, costly setup in Japan(and the thing shown in the article is expensive) but the simple comod-bidet setup is inexpensive. It's quite common in India.
It does work outside of Japan.
The relationship of "enterprise" software company to partner VAR to enterprise works much the same way, drinks and all.
People not picking the pipes or bricks that are used I can see, but the toilet? No way. Before I buy a toilet I want to at least sit on it and I cannot imagine anyone feeling any other way about that.
Also, remember that not everyone owns their own house. Many people rent apartments or houses from other people, or live with families.
Between all of those factors, I would say a very small percentage of toilets in this country were picked out by the person using them.
The factor of the cost is important too. For $1700 I could redo a whole room - why would I spend this on a toilet when I already have a perfectly working one? Of course, if money is not an issue, it's different - but for most people money still is the issue.
There is an entire industry of show rooms for high end bathrooms and kitchens with salesmen to help you pick out the right bath tub or dishwasher.
If you're not getting an incredibly detailed itemised bill, you might find it tough to spot ~1K extra in 'bathroom furniture and installations'
Maybe it's a Japanese thing. It's like asking why we don't use arabic toilets...
Consider the following experiment:
Smear some mud on your arm. Now, using a jet stream the power of a squirt gun and very low precision, wash it all off in 10 seconds. Not so easy. Then - imagine if you put mud on a place with hair! Not only will it not be clean without some actual washing, we haven't even gotten to the drying part yet.
Fact of the matter is, these do not replace toilet paper. I thought they were OK (Google) until I decided to use toilet paper after - and I was shocked and disappointed. My routine simply got longer and more complex, with a small value add of washing with water instead of dry paper.
Sorry about the grim detail - I think the 'squeamish about bathroom routine' point of the article is right - just in the wrong way!
Another observation was that you got better with the wash over time. Once familiarized with the placement controls of the unit and the 'feel' (sorry) of the action you could achieve better results. There was some interesting speculation on what a 'complete' fix might entail, and one of the hardware engineers put a 'watts up' meters in line with the seat to get a read on its actual usage (about .037 kwH per month),
My take away was that it was an improvement but not a $1,500 improvement (or $4,500 if I wanted to do it to all three toilets in my house). It also increases water usage, albeit modestly, which is sort of anti-california but that was before I talked with the toilet guys who said the water saving toilets only save water on urine flushes since it it typical for solid matter to require more than one flush cycle. (it still saves water but still).
These ass-jet toilets are not intended to replace toilet paper. They are for getting your asshole (and ladyparts, but I can't testify on that topic) much cleaner in much less time than with conventional American toilets and dry paper alone.
You use the ass-jet, then paper. That's how they work. (For a heinous bowel-movement situation, you might do paper, ass-jet, paper again.) You aren't supposed to skip the paper!
Using your mud example, if you got mud all over your head, would you rather just keep scraping your head with dry paper towels, and use up a couple rolls worth and still have some mud left over, or use some water too? Same principle.
If you take a perfect shit (love when that happens), then sure, it just slides out and leaves behind minimal debris. Great. But let's say you ate a plate of Uncle Jim's nachos the night before, along with a twelve pack of PBR, and you definitely didn't achieve shitting perfection this time. That is when these toilets really shine.
The number of times you have to wipe your ass to achieve that comforting pure-white-no-residue final wipe, that tells you your asshole is clean, is astronomically higher with paper only than it is with an ass-jet plus paper. I mean, have you ever had one of those wipe-it-ten-time-and-dammit-it-still-isn't-clean kind of shits? You just never have that happen with the ass-jet. The water helps wash your doody-hole AND that moistens the toilet paper (for the first post-jet wipe). That makes it work better, just like a wet dishrag is more effective at cleaning a dish than a dry one.
I personally would be surprised if populations that lack ass-jet toilets didn't have a higher incidence of hemmhorrhoids from all that wiping, over a lifetime. I don't think we have that long-term data yet.
But from personal experience, they have saved me thousdands and thousands of asshole-wipes over the years, and I could never go back to a the barbaric American toilets of my youth.
(When I moved back to America several years ago, I brought a Toto washlet toilet seat with me. And the new apartment that I just bought in Tokyo had many options to specify, but the toilet wasn't one of them--just as patio11 suggests above, the place came with a brand new whiz-bang model featuring the latest in shitter technology from Toto, complete with not only heated seat, ass-jet, and wall-mounted control panel, but also sensors that allow it to raise the seat automatically as I approach, and flush for me when I am done.)
When you dive into a mud pit, do you wipe yourself off with paper towels until you're done, or do you use a bit of soap & water?
I've never had the opportunity to use a bidet, but on top of the lack of a thorough cleaning, aren't you dripping wet after?
Even in a half squat after the fact, I would expect this unsanitary water to run down one's legs.
Also some toilets have an air-dryer.
It is kind of nice to have hot air blown up your ass though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2...
tl;dw: thorougly shake, the wipe with one paper folded once
After she passed, my Dad just threw them in the guest bathroom. Using both paper and these (preferred order is up to the user) seems to fit the bill for just about any, uh, circumstance, and I've had numerous people make positive comments on it which is strange in and of itself.
At first I thought it was a bit wasteful, but I think many times you can get by with less total paper. YTPMV.
The article makes it sound as though you don't need toilet paper and that didn't sound quite right unless the jet was pretty significant and included some kind of soap.
The only thing worse than cleaning feces paste off my butt with paper that shields my hand would be cleaning diluted feces water off my butt with paper that soaks the water through to my hand.
Further, they shouldn't require much precision as the area we are talking about isn't all that large. Of course, until you get to the high end models, you generally don't get position adjustment or oscillating cleansing.
Maybe the Google ones you used were just poor? The ones I used in Japan ranged from excellent to ok.
I have tried these in Japan and the first time I hit the squirt button I got a shock-inducing surprise at how accurate they are. It's like they are laser guided or something, such is the accuracy of hitting the target.
Is incredible aim required, or does it just spray all over and go through a drain in the floor?
Also, these toilets come with a warm air dryer as well.
I also saw them for the first time at Google, and then I bought one for home. It saves a ton of waste and you'll be and feel cleaner afterwards.
Granted, it does take a little more time to exit after you are done. But, if people were really in a hurry why would they keep a magazine/book by the toilet?
Also, should you find an additional paper pass to be necessary, you'll find it complicated by the fact that the area to be wiped is now wet. Toilet paper notoriously doesn't hold up well when soaking wet.
Also, the warm seat, warm water, warm air changes the whole thing, especially in winter.
For something that you will use every day, if you appreciate the advantages, I think $500 is an acceptable price.
Sounds like you just answered the question of why these are popular in Japan but not in America.
Doesn't explain their popularity in Europe, though.
When I mentioned working at Google, I have had multiple people say to me, "I heard the founders at Google are OBSESSED with toilets and import special models from Japan." As if one has to be stark raving mad to use a modern toilet from Japan, instead of the old fashioned toilet which was probably imported from China anyway.
I prefer Western toilets (I'm American), but think the squat-strategy has a lot of sense to it: you never touch anything, and the squat position angles your body "just right" if you know what I mean. It's just a bit awkward for us (Westerners) when you're not used to holding that body position, though.
There, now I can cross off "get into public internet discussion of pooping strategy" from my life goals list. :)
To that end, there are several companies out there that sell stepstools designed to allow squatting with western toilets. The first one I saw was the Lilipad, made in New Zealand, and more recently a company called Squatty Potty has started making them in the US.
This was on a western toilet.
You just lean to the side, while seated. Just try it once, and keep an open mind.
I'm French- there's a bidet at my grandparents' house which is never used, and there used to be one at my parents' house but they removed it when they remodeled the bathroom because they never used it (it was there when they bought the house).
I've only ever used a bidet to wash my feet (or as kids, we would put our swimsuits in it to dry). I'm not even sure what its original purpose is.
In india, they have a dedicated cup and tub near the floor. A godsend for the many visitors catching turista: you can only sustain so much dry wiping before getting a serious rash...
It's purpose is similar to that of the Japanese toilet, though way more primitive - the Japanese solution takes less space and is more advanced generally, but way more expensive.
All you need is the "spray head" with flexible hose [0], plus the adaptor to make a kitchen part fit the bathroom piping (for some reason, kitchen and bathroom have non-interchangeable parts).
You hang it on a hook next to the toilet, and you use it to clean yourself. I cannot live without these, and I intensely regret any overnight trips to a hotel or other place that does not have such an amenity. I regularly recommend and sometimes even buy and install these for friends and family.
The USA is still living in the dark ages when it comes to some parts of self-hygiene.
0: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21PJ48yqYmL._SL500_AA3...
In areas without (edit: running) water, they'll have a bucket of clean water nearby with some sort of cup to use. I've heard this is pretty common in SE Asia.
And people eat with their hands a lot too. This is why its considered disgusting to eat with the left hand in many places. Right hand for eating, left hand for washing your ass.
One of the benefits of having travelled a lot in Asia is you will never again be phased by running out of toilet paper.
In my estimation water pressure seems to be higher in the US (maybe just because I'm in a big apartment and pressure is higher to compensate for altitude). What this means is that it will take some time to adjust to the.. um.. high pressure cleaning. Also beware that pressure cleaning yourself in the middle of january with near freezing water is an experience that will.. wake you up in the morning. It'll be awkward for the first week, but after then you'll be a pro.
EDIT: I think it's worth mentioning that the bidets in thailand tend to be kitchen sprayers. For a more ideal situation you want something with a more focused and narrow beam width, so to speak. The bidet I have is like that, but I haven't been able to find it on amazon after a quick search..
http://www.amazon.com/bumGenius-890077002003-Diaper-Sprayer/...
But I wouldn't want to use these on a person, the water pressure and flux area are too large.
http://brondell.com/blog/washing-with-water-around-the-world...
>Approved backflow preventers or vacuum breakers shall be installed with any plumbing fixture or equipment, the potable water supply outlet of which may be submerged and which cannot be protected by a minimum air gap.
I know Boston has a Toto showroom in its North End, but I really cant consider it due to the rules of my apartment building.
Maybe their brand hasn't earned enough credibility to command the prices.
And if you want a warmer, you'll need a GFCI outlet installed next to the toilet, which most US homes do not have. You'll want a warmer in many areas of the US during the winter.
So you're looking at quite a bit of cash there.
Edit: Please read what I wrote. I'm not saying most US homes do not have a GFCI outlet, period. I'm saying most US homes do not have a GFCI outlet next to the toilet.
Think about what you're saying before commenting. Are you going to permanently run an extension cord from the toilet over to the GFCI near the sink?
(My current apartment has four: two in the bathroom, two in the kitchen.)
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001KKRCFA
It gets the job done just fine — I’ve never felt the need for heated water or a blow drier. The head is spring-loaded and retracts when water pressure isn’t being applied. Happy to answer questions if, er, anyone’s curious.
Interestingly enough, they offered to ship me a second one if I wrote a review, any review, on Amazon (I did). I’m guessing they’re trying to raise awareness of these things.
Am I the only one here who would install it myself?
Then we are talking less than the cost of your internet connection (and we won't mention the cost of food, which is way more than that).
And right now toilets are fully functional for most people, mine aren't uncomfortable to me and are easy to clean and most repairs can be done quite easily yourself. Adding technology to that sounds like trouble and would likely require calling out a plumber to fix things.
The valves and seals may need replacing, and the bowl should be kept clean to avoid staining, but I've never heard of someone replacing the entire unit every 10 years.
Not if you consider the time value of money, which you should do when making any cost comparison.
Now substitute toilet for door, and wiping for greasing. Or sink, and running out of room or not having the nozzle high enough or having scratches. Do this a couple times and congrats, you've just paid enough for most Americans to buy a car - which is more important?
* How does the toilet know that everything is clean? With toilet paper, you can just wipe with new toilet paper until there is no more residue.
* What is the algorithm for the toilet's spraying? Does it end up spreading diluted feces around, or is it careful to spray outward-in?
* What happens if feces end up on the nozzle? Is there some kind of auto-cleaning mechanism? Otherwise it might end up spraying old feces back to me.
- The sprayer is manually controlled: when you're done using and flushing, then you wash & dry. It doesn't just stick out the whole time.
Is there a cover for the sprayer, so that it's protected from splatter while you're excreting?
But yes, the SPRAYER is protected from the SPLATTER by a plastic housing. It(the sprayer) kind of lowers to spray only when you turn the knob.
This is the one that I have and it works suprisingly well: http://www.amazon.com/LUXE-Bidet-Vi-110-Non-Electric-Mechani...
Having said that, The plastic cover housing of the sprayer itself might get soiled in cases of extreme explosion (i.e after mexican lunches etc haha) in which case I had to use some TP to clean the mess up.
I found this bidet (mentioned above) the easiest to use.
- Easy to install (5 - 10 min) - Small footprint (doesnt include the cover so a lot cheaper) and fits most of the commodes - Pretty much no touch mechanism - turn knob and you are done ( drying with TP optional)
Anyone who uses that toilet will inevitably share the germ cultures from one another's feces. That doesn't strike me as very sanitary.
Way less toilet paper (just to wipe&dry at the end), cleans way faster, your bum is not itchy, and it costs nothing. The toilet bowls come with this.
I hate American toilets. This can't just be a Turkish quirk, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet_shower
I use a lillipad: http://www.lillipad.co.nz/
It converts any normal toilet into an optional squat toilet. I don't think it would work with these warm-water jet toilets though.
If you have any issues with your bowel movements (constipation, diarrhea, both), you owe it to yourself to try a squat toilet.
I suggested they raise prices to a level that would let them sell more. Never heard anything back.
> In 1980 the first "paperless toilet" was launched in Japan, a combination toilet and bidet which also dries the user after washing.
The bidet often required something separate to dry after cleaning, so the difference seems to be integration with the toilet plus the dryer (heated seat optional).
On another note, on a recent trip to Korea, I noticed that many homes had these toilets (mentioned on wikipedia article). The article seems to imply that they are unique to Japan, when they're actually popular almost everywhere outside of the US.
Here in the UK , we can't have nice things because someone will just take the liberty of smashing it to pieces for you.
For what I have heard about places like Tokyo; you have vending machines for just about all of your needs, fancy toilets and video game arcades have actual chairs to sit on while you play the machines.
None of these things would last 5 minutes in the UK.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/video-hub/home--garden/be...
Really? I was there for 5 days last spring and never encountered one of these toilets. I did, however, encounter a hole in the ground, you gotta squat to do a number two public toilet stall.
- A foot-stool to place your feet on so you are in a more natural position which seems to help with the flow of things and could reduce the amount of cleanup required. See "Going to the Bathroom 2.0" - http://youtu.be/0WQaqeC_wME
- And flushable baby wipes.
Simple but very effective.
Although I've never used one the Japanese toilets, I would be a huge fan of the heated seat portion. If I had the money, that would be a feature I'd enjoy.
Unfortunately these are not easy to install in houses built in a North American style, because there are no floor drains in the toilet, so if you install a "shattaf" the floor will eventually soak in water; keeping it clean and dry is very annoying and difficult.
I don't understand why people in the West use toilet papers instead of washing.
When I have to use toilet papers, I will also use flushable wet wipes.
The water washes me clean. Often 100% and always most of the way. It took a bit to get the hang of it: to get a good wash I find it helps to clench my butt muscles and wiggle on the seat. After 5-10 seconds, I wipe with the cloth: old t-shirts cut into ~4x8" rectangles. The water does a much better job of cleaning than toilet paper.
When I first had the bidet I used toilet paper after the spray to dry off. It was only slightly less miserable than having a waterlogged ass. I needed twice as much paper to dry myself off as I would have used to wipe.
For a while I hung an old microfiber towel next to the toilet and used that, but "oh, that's just my butt-towel…" is an interesting conversation to have. So I cut up some old shirts. They go into a bucket after use and I wash them regularly. The cloth is what makes it work.
I can only imagine what it would be like to have a blowdryer down there.
If you're not keen on using a piece of paper to smudge your shit into your anus more permanently than necessary, then there are always bidet showers (without the bidet sink, it's just an extra shower with a smaller outlet). Wikipedia says "Its [bidet shower] use is very common in Finland, romance speaking countries, arab countries and other countries of muslim background."
So, the dry and wet options are already covered to most countries' likings and the spraying toilet seat doesn't effectively offer any groundbreaking improvements in the appropriate department.
ex from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=muslim+shower&...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet_shower
Huh, guess not. Those have been around in Finland at least since the late 80s, and don't have the "what's the deal with the computerized toilet seat" image problem.
I poop in the morning, wipe off the worst with toilet paper, then hop in the shower. Works great, and my shower head has the advantage of never having been splashed by someone else's pee.
Think about it, if you were to get shit on your hands you wouldn't just wipe it off with dry paper would you? Why do you wash your butt that way? It is completely illogical and very unsanitary.
I bought one of these: http://www.amazon.com/LUXE-Bidet-Vi-110-Non-Electric-Mechani...
$42 installed in 10 minutes with a screwdriver and wrench.
I love it! I wish other bathrooms had them.
Of course, you do use significantly more toilet paper with the latter, but a pack is ~$5 and lasts ~ 1 month, so you'd still be looking at, what 8-10 year return on investment.
Ah, I remember my bachelor days too.
When I lived in Japan for a few months, I think I only ever came across one or two bidet toilets. Frankly, I was too afraid to try it. I kept wondering what would happen if the mechanism malfunctioned or missed or something. Typical geek worries, I guess!
The marketing could be better. Education comes first. If non-bidet toilets were contrasted as crude, unhygienic and downright barbaric, I think we'd see a lot more demand for them and bidet makers should be offering them free to restaurants and clothing stores to place in women's bathrooms.
But for me, the problem still comes back to power.
1) I rent
2) have two bathrooms: downstairs everyone uses, upstairs is mostly me.
So:
1) do I take care of everyone or just myself first (i.e. upstairs or downstairs)?
2) costs are probably not as low as they claim. I'll need to have an electrician run power near to the toilet which also means ripping out part of the wall, replacing, and repainting.
3) I feel funny doing this as a tenant and I've wondered how well property company would respond to covering the installation costs. I figure it's like installing a new appliance...
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...
I respect Bill Gates for working on those projects - it would be easier just to manage traditionally all that money.
I reckon an episode Modern Family or Community where this type of toilet/bidet is a positive driver of the comedy would bring in a lot of sales for bidets.
Other than they might as well be good, they are certainly a novelty unless you have very specific reasons to get one. Also another thing to fear is cameras and wifi, it's japanese after all!
Somebody is pushin some high-tech loos! I'd rather know how to use the three seashell system...
2. You need to retrain your cleaning staff to know how to handle these. It's like entrusting them with dusting off your server rack.
Finding a plumber I trust seems like a problem some startup has solved. There's never enough time to follow this up, I've been intending to upgrade for over a year.
The best for me was heated train seats, but we've ventured away from toilets.
http://ergonomenon.com/ergonomics-articles/the-ergonomics-of...
... joking aside, I think it's the notion of using water that might freak people out. I'm not opposed to the concept, but I would worry about its effectiveness. I mean, I feel like I'd always want toilet paper there, even if it's just a placebo for making me feel truly clean.
What I found fascinating was this site claiming that,"it takes 635 gallons of water to make a hamburger, but only one to flush it." http://www.map-testing.com/
a)The toilet spray isn't sufficient to eradicate your fecal remains, unless it is adjusted to garden-hose spray levels. Painful.
b)Drying your sprayed behind with a heated fan is uncomfortable.
Clearly not true. The Apple Computer of toilets would only allow you to download via iPoop.
My 4 year old used it. Once. When it sprayed her, she jumped up, ran out of the room, and refused to ever touch that toilet again.
These are just extortion, taking advantage of a cultural "issue" in a first world country like Japan.
I can't believe hn are even discussing this.
I can't believe hn are even discussing this.
If you can't see the difference then go right ahead and keep discussing this nonsense. Funny how the rest of the animal kingdom seems to have managed. Funny how nobody but the Japanese want these? Ever ask why the same nation that needs soiled panty dispensing vending machines also needs an electric bidet. See it for what it is, a fetish. I'm sure jonathan swift would have loved one.
Cleaning yourself with water, whether it be your hands or your butt, is not a "fetish" and I cannot comprehend why you would try to paint it as such. Why are you so scared of the idea that you'll go to the extreme of trying to dismiss it as sexual deviancy? Your argument says a lot more about you than it does about the topic at hand.
And for your information, used pantie vending machines in Japan is basically an urban myth. There may be some in fetishist sex shops, I'm not sure. I'm sure you can buy used panties in American fetish sex shops, too.
Diarrhoea is a major cause of child death. Many of these deaths could be prevented with better hygiene, including better toilets and running water for hand washing with soap.
We also went for millennia without computers and cars, yet we have no problem discussing those. Heck, the species survived without medicine for the vast majority of its existence; yet now we have it we'd never go back (and attempting to do so would be legitimately considered inhumane).
So I fail to see how discussing a sanitation issue is a first-world problem.
medicine has actually been with humans for centuries, but yes, mankind managed just fine without medicine. Most things that kill us (besides predators) are the result of technology, like agricultural-era based diseases and the more modern pollutions in the water and air. antibiotics, however, are a welcome modern addition...
http://articles.latimes.com/1996-11-21/news/mn-1397_1_cleani...
Uh, no they don't. And if the author is using them that way, that's fucking gross. If they rendered toilet paper obsolete then Japanese bathrooms wouldn't have toilet paper, or Japanese wouldn't use it anyway, but neither statement is true. The 'feature' of Japanese toilets is that your asshole will be clean, regardless of how dire the shit you just took is. And believe me, it's a wonderful thing, but it doesn't render the paper obsolete.
Pardon the pun, but this author is talking out of his ass.