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> Every day hike in Zion Canyon is kind of like waiting in line at Disney World. You’re waiting in line in a magical place, but you’re still waiting in line. You ask a dead-eyed park ranger to recommend you a less popular hike, and he spits in your face. There is no such thing as a less-popular hike in Zion Canyon. You will wait in line on the trail and you will be grateful you piece of shit.

Yeah, you can safely disregard anything this idiot says. This is simply not true. When I did the Zion traverse we went a full day without seeing people at one point, never waited in line. If you want to the Disneyland version, yeah it'll be crowded.

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With most parks the crowds quickly disappear once you are 2 miles in. That's the case pretty much all over the world. I remember in Iceland there were these huge crowds at a water fall close to the bus stop. I hiked 3 miles in to another similar waterfall. There we had less than 10 people.

Yep! In my experience it's about 3 miles; people turn around in between 2 and 3. By 3 miles you're guaranteed solo.

Power law:

The number of people decrease as a power of the distance you travel away from popular spots

The NPS has an even more specific version of this: the overwhelming majority of Americans visiting a park will not walk more than 1/4 mile from their vehicle. So everything is designed to reinforce this behavior as much as possible, which (a) means that the majority of people get a richer, more dramatic and/or more informative/eye-opening visit (b) the backcountry is left alone, both for the other animals that live there and for the rare humans who will head out there.

It doesn't help that basically all the hikes in Zion are popular hikes. There was definitely waiting involved in the Angels Landing hike and that was well beyond 1/4 mile from the parking lot up a significant incline before you even reach the chains to begin climbing up. Lots of passing and waiting once you hit the chains. Tons of people. The very top was quite crowded but we went before the permitting system was in place.

> With most parks the crowds quickly disappear once you are 2 miles in.

And those crowds just aren't present in the early morning. Nobody gets up early enough to be out at sunrise. I'm not worried about saying this out loud and spoiling it either, because most people just don't like to get up that early.

I've been to gorgeous places all over the US that are absolutely packed by 10am or noon. Those same places are completely empty, and even more beautiful at sunrise. I live near one of the best mountain biking places in the southeast US, and regularly do 20-30 mile rides starting at sunrise, and only occasionally see a runner or another cyclist. There's just nobody out in the early mornings.

Also, when the weather isn't perfect. I love taking a hike when it is chily, rainy, or even cold and snowing.

All it takes is proper gear.

> There we had less than 10 people

In Iceland, 10 people is a huge crowd.

Not at the tourist sites. They are quite crowded once the busses come in .

Very much true. I heard so many complaints both of the times I lived in Colorado about how everything was crowded and that was really only true in the parking lot/road in at the trailheads. Once you got a couple miles in, the only people you'd see were those on their return trip passing you by going in the opposite direction, and for the parking situation if you go early enough that you're starting your hike in earnest just after first light, you'll be the one passing people on your return trip.

I've been to most of the places he said were bad and I totally agree that you can ignore what he says. Shortly after talking about how bad Zion is for the crowds he says that Capitol Reef is also terrible. I thought Capitol Reef was great. It's a lot like Zion but without the crowds.

He also dismissed a few parks that I think are ideal for families with young children. Petrified forest has lots of interesting short hikes that you can do with small children. They also have a really nice ice cream shop with great views. The fact that you can do short hikes to amazing views is part of what makes Arches nice. If you want a longer hike drive next door to Canyonlands which is also fantastic.

I just went to Zion last week. There was an hour long wait to get on the shuttles due to crowds. The River Walk trail to the Narrows was so congested you would bump into people. The Emerald pools was packed with people despite being a 500’ climb. It’s a very popular park during spring break.

I visited Zion a fair bit when I had pretty regular business travel to Vegas. Probably wouldn't go back today. The shuttle is something of a nightmare if you don't pay to stay in the park and I think my favorite hike is still closed due to rockfall.

I think the winning strategy to beat crowds is to get an e-bike rental and skip the shuttle.

If you bike, probably.

I never paid to stay in the park. Simply do the traverse.

Yes, the shuttles are the disneyland portion of the park. The backcountry is just as beautiful and way, way, way less people.

Zion backcountry isnt in the canyon though. Its nice, but not nearly as scenic as the canyon. If you want the unique canyon experience theres no way to get it without the crowds.

> The backcountry is just as beautiful

Just not true. There are 10,000 sq miles in utah alone that are just as nice as the non canyon part of zion. The canyon is unique.

You're wrong. The Subway, Orderville, and Mystery Canyon are all slot/narrow canyons and you won't find crowds remotely comparable to the shuttle stops. You can get the unique canyon experience without the crowds.

This article was either written to be clickbait, or written by the kind of person who can find a way to be unhappy in any situation.

The article is safely ignored.

Or is was written for people who understand humor and hyperbole in making a point.

Or the point the writer is making is inherently bad and no amount of humor or hyperbole will change that.

It's quite solid: most of these places are oversold, overcrowded, not that interesting, or a combination of the above.

Of course you can't explain humor.

> It's quite solid: most of these places are oversold, overcrowded, not that interesting, or a combination of the above.

I would disagree with almost everything this person has written. I think you have to be completely incurious or cynical to derive no wonder from the Grand Canyon or to dismiss Zion so completely.

Even Congaree National Park - an easy target - is to me a wonderful spot due to its east coast old growth forests (not many of those!) and the truly marvelous bald cypress trees which are very unique. You know what else it has? A magical, truly magical display of synchronized fireflies. This is a rare wonder in the world!

If you've no interest in the natural world or only very select elements of it, then sure, I guess the author's point is something worth reading. And I did recognize the humor in it, but to me that humor was a filter on top of a toxic way to experience the magic of the natural world, preserved in our National Parks.

The point I will agree with the author on: the petrified forest will be a total disappointment if you are visiting based on the name and have no idea what it actually is.

It's been over a decade since I went, but I went there (and Bryce Canyon) twice during the winter. You practically have the whole park to yourself!

With Bryce Canyon, it's best to go before snowfall, though. Once the ice sets in, they shut down a lot of the trails.

Also went once to Arches in winter. Awesome (except again, a lot of trails too slippery).

Yeah. I went through Bryce in the winter and you couldn't do a lot of hiking below the rim. The trails just weren't signposted or set up for it. Beautiful from the rim with the snow but the canyon itself wasn't really accessible.

Yeah. The first time I went it was the week after Thanksgiving. No snow yet, so I could hike.

I have gone in the summer once and it was busy but still an amazing experience. I have been twice in the winter/off season (they clear the roads right after snow!) and we had the park basically to ourselves. Was absolutely fantastic.

Agreed. I've been to zion many times and the rangers have never been anything but helpful. A while back a ranger recommended a hike with few people and now I do it every visit.

It is crowded, which is a bummer, but still a great experience.

It's 30 years since I visited Zion. So beautiful. The best part of a trip that included Lake Powell, Yosemite and the Grand Cannyon, though those were all great. Being British, basically no-one here has ever heard of it, so I'm always keen to tell people about it. The Park Rangers were great, too.

Mind you, your President seems keen on deterring foreign visitors of all sorts, so those visitor numbers are sure to decline. So that's a win, I guess.

> Yeah, you can safely disregard anything this idiot says. This is simply not true. When I did the Zion traverse we went a full day without seeing people at one point, never waited in line. If you want to the Disneyland version, yeah it'll be crowded.

Zion is great in that it does have the theme park stuff for those where accessibility is an issue and it also has strenuous backcountry stuff for those who can handle it.

We did the top-to-bottom narrows hike, where you start above the beginning of the canyon and hike down. We had some older hikers with us so we decided to spend the night in the canyon at the halfway point.

We saw nobody outside of the small group who rode the van from the outfitters with us for the entire first day. It was amazing.

The next day we finished the hike, which ends at the theme park section. It got increasingly crowded as you got closer to the bus stop until you could find people with all kinds of mobility restrictions still able to enjoy the park.

I left thoroughly impressed at what the NPS had accomplished.

There's also another entrance to Zion park in another area called Kolob Canyon. It's a few hours drive from the main entrance, far less developed, and there's never anyone there. Still very beautiful, though.

Theres a reason no one goes to Kolob canyon, its rather unremarkable compared to zion canyon. All the national monuments in utah are nicer and also have zero crowds, other than the cave in provo.

I think this might be rage bait.

I think it really depends what time of year you go. Zion is beautiful, but when I went it was early in the season and a lot of the popular stuff was closed and it was very crowded everywhere. On the same trip I did all 5 parks in Utah, and I easily rank Zion as my least favorite, even though people seem to love it the most. I would definitely go back though.

Yeah, this was an off article that half I completely disagreed with, a quarter is probably accurate, and the other quarter I don’t know anything about.

Zion is amazing. One of my favorites. We found a great dry riverbed trail and saw no one for nearly two hours. My kids loved Arches. Had we known? We would have planned longer. Bryce we thought was meh, unpopular opinion, I’m sure. Canyonlands I can’t even remember.

Smokey Mountains is beautiful as well. Mountains, a ghost town, beautiful forest, an Ectomobile from Ghostbusters II, and motorcycle from Terminator 2. Seems pretty ideal.

The Grand Canyon review is spot on though.

Edit to add: Dry Tortugas is amazing. Take the last sea plane and revel in being lost at sea with 20 other people for serval hours. It’s Unlike anything else.

> The Grand Canyon review is spot on though.

It may be factually accurate, but nevertheless, hiking down to the river and back up again was one of the most amazing hiking experiences of my life, and there have been quite a few of those.

> The Grand Canyon review is spot on though.

The review of the Grand Canyon annoyed me the most:

``` Can you hike in the Grand Canyon? Yes, technically. You can walk along the rim, but the view won’t change; same damn canyon on one side, same damn parking lot on the other. There are trails that go down into the canyon, but they’re a trap ```

So you can't even hike there, except of course for the hike that you can do.

"They are featureless steep inclines formed into endless switchbacks, and when they finally end, there’s nothing to do except go back up"

That is what hiking is! Granted, usually you hike up and then back down. And I wouldn't call the hike down into the canyon "featureless". Honestly, it sounds like this person just doesn't really like hiking, which if fine it's not for everyone, but that is just what there is to do in most national parks.

I think it's mostly to tongue in cheek.

That's what I thought too. It's written in a curmudgeonly style for curmudgeonly readers similar to the author's other posts on substack. Don't think the author made this for very broad reading or expected this to get on HN lol

We once did a hike from Chamberlain's Ranch down. No one else for 10+ miles until we reached the switchbacks at the end. It really depends on where you go.

Zion? Rent a bike at the entrance. They'll take them on the shuttle into the park. Ride them back to the entrance.

Magical.

Just like many popular places it depends when you go. Last time we were there it was off season and a bit cold but pretty empty.

That's because you went during the off-season. Zion gets packed during the busy times.

May is not off-season

His first choice of a ~"good"~ correction:worthwhile national park is Gateway Arch in St. Louis.

When I got to that part, I was sure this was rage bait.

No it isn't. He says nothing about what his first choice good national park is. That section is about parks that people say are bad but aren't. His contention is merely that it is fine.

Ah, you're right.

But still, if he is saying that for a national park, Gateway Arch is fine, but the Grand Canyon is about as worthwhile as Times Square Margaritaville and Yosemite valley is comparable to anyplace else in California, I have to believe this is rage bait (or disingenuous engagement bait at best)

must be a seasonal thing. i’ve never seen nobody but have also never seen disney.

Disney is engineered to be "packed" no matter the season or weather.

But national parks are very seasonal; go even slightly off-season and everything is empty (but you may miss some things that close for winter, etc).

no one is an idiot. no one has that identity. people do not have more or less value. we are all worthy of respect. someone can act with idiot tendencies, but they are NOT an idiot.

oh.

people agree with the top comment, so they are totally cool with the insult and will downvote anyone calling it out.

if they disagreed with the comment, everyone would flag it for having an insult and you'd be getting upvotes instead.

what about people who get confused by the nested comments, can we comment?

Not helping your case here, it's also against the guidelines to talk about the votes on comments.

You're not supposed to write down the unwritten rules.

I would expect, reminding _hackers_ about the rules is not exactly productive.

Edit: Comment I replied to originally said "Why am I being downvoted" and their original post said something like "Calling someone an idiot is against the rules"

Some people are idiots and deserve to be called out.

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