Comment by lynndotpy | Hacker News Reader

Comment by lynndotpy | Hacker News Reader

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You absolutely need to pop the bubble you're in, because what you believe is the opposite of reality.

There's a reason cryptographers laud Signal (the protocol) over MTProto (Telegram's protocol), and Signal (the app) over Telegram (the app). Telegram is not E2EE by default, does not have E2EE for group chats, and does not have a good crpytographic protocol, and Musk has long been rallying against Signal.

Under Elon Musk, DOGE exfiltrated and breached American's data from the major government agencies they broke into, exfiltrated information to private databases (with DOGE employees leaving with flashdrives), Russian IPs accessing NLRB systems with provided credentials, and we're even seeing DOGE's once-alleged US citizen master-database project come to proposal as a DHS project under the SAVE act.

In just a year, Musk and DOGE helped to expand the US government's mass surveillance capacity beyond what we've ever seen. This is not surprising, since Elon Musk is aligned with the United States fascist movement, and mass surveillance is a hallmark of fascism.

We have a much stronger surveillance state, owing to DOGE and Musk.

Which part of what I said is the opposite of reality?

I'm aware that Telegram is not E2EE by default, and you have to turn it on manually. But it's not true that Elon has long been rallying against Signal. In fact, he endorsed Signal a while back along with Edward Snowden. He also later criticized Signal, as well as other encrypted messaging apps. I remember seeing a podcast clip of him saying something along the lines of "none of them can really protect against the government spying on him", which is true. If you're a high profile individual like Musk, nation states will expend lots of resources to spy on you, and no messaging app will protect you from that. The point of encrypted messaging apps like Signal and Telegram is to raise the per capita cost of doing surveillance so that surveiling the entire population becomes prohibitively expensive, but it doesn't prevent targeted operations on an individual by determined state actors. Having multiple options for those apps is a good thing, even if the apps are individually imperfect, because the government will have to deal with multiple apps instead of one, and that takes more resources.

As for the rest of your comment, those claims aren't true, at least not in the way you stated. DOGE has been accused of mishandling sensitive records, and that part might be true, but I've not seen any evidence pointing towards the mishandling being a part of a evil plot to strengthen the surveillance state and promote fascism. Mass surveillance was already a problem back in 2013 when Snowden leaked it. In fact, it was already a problem before Obama's first term, and Snowden held off on leaking it because he thought Obama would introduce reforms, which didn't happen. The surveillance state is not a recent fascist movement spearheaded by Musk or DOGE. And I think a lot of the vitriol towards Musk is manufactured. He occasionally lies and is prone to manipulation like everyone else, but he's not the supervillain you think he is.

> encrypted messaging apps like Signal and Telegram

Telegram less of an "encrypted messaging app" than Instagram was (which, until May 8th, has optional E2EE apps using the Signal protocol). It's simply incorrect to think of Telegram as an "encrypted messaging app" when the default use case is not E2EE.

> the mishandling being a part of a evil plot to strengthen the surveillance state and promote fascism

DOGE strengthened the surveillance state. It does not matter whether or not it's tied to a singular intentional plot.

> Mass surveillance was already a problem back in 2013

Yes, and mass surveillance was a problem even before 2013. We saw it greatly expand especially under the Bush administration under the guise of the "war on terror". As you noted, we haven't seen Obama or Biden reform to account for expansions of power that happened under the preceding administrations. (Hopefully we can get another Watergate style realignment!) So, you have to think about the world in systems thinking, and you have to think about how the state of things are changing over time.

Musk endorsed Signal in 2021, but since then he's denigrated it as "vulnerable", promoted Telegram (which, again, is not even in the same ballpark), blocked Signal for a period and banned users for posting them, and has promoted XChat (which stores keys and metadata serverside and which does not even have forward secrecy).

Musk is a proponent of surveillance and censorship, not the other way around.

> Telegram less of an "encrypted messaging app" than Instagram was

Instagram is not comparable to Telegram. It is closed source, so there's no way to verify that it's doing E2EE.

> DOGE strengthened the surveillance state. It does not matter whether or not it's tied to a singular intentional plot.

That's not what you originally implied, but no matter. DOGE probably strengthened surveillance capacity within the government as a side effect of its auditing work, but I don't think it added any new capability to surveil citizens that the NSA did not already have.

As for Musk being a proponent of surveillance and censorship, there's a difference between an individual surveiling and censoring users on a platform he bought vs the government using mass surveillance and censorship against its citizens.

After Elon bought Twitter, he is like the Discord mod of his giant server, and doesn't want people to go to other servers. I don't think there's much more to it than that behind the ban of Signal links on X. He had previously banned other platforms' links on a whim as well [0]. He enforces his own rules on his own platform, but he's outspoken against government surveillance and censorship. He's somewhat hypocritical value-wise in this regard, which is one of his flaws, but he's also not the government. And even so, Twitter still manages to have looser speech restrictions nowadays than it did in 2021.

[0] https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/18/23515221/twitter-bans-li...

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