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Comment by eigenspace | Hacker News Reader

A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path"

My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path, but I think if one is concerned about that, it's a sign youre cycling too fast, and should just slow down.

With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.

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>My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do.

The culture around this varies a lot. I'm in Melbourne, Australia. Virtually all bike paths are "shared", and many have signs telling you to ring your bell when approaching pedestrians - you're not telling them to move out of the way, you're telling them that you're there.

In practice, I tend to use one ding to mean "I'm here" and multiple dings to mean "you're on the wrong side of the path and need to move".

But in no situation do I rely on a bike bell to avoid an accident.

I've always wanted two horns in my car: one that toots with a smile and a tip of the hat, and one that heralds your pending demise. It sounds like Australia cycle bell culture does that with short vs. long bell ding-a-lings.

Which is kind of how it has worked with cars, except I find that more and more cars have a style of horn that's hard to control with the necessary precision. Maybe this is Canadian culture but I get very anxious that my horn will honk for a millisecond too long and the poor victim will think I'm angry at them.

go somewhere appropriate and do a little practice with the friendly multi-tap vs. the two-hand push!

adding on a wave helps too; I wish more drivers waved...

I hate how many cars I see these days with windows so tinted that eye contact and waves are impossible.

It feels dangerous to be unable to see the driver through their side window (eg. 4-way stop eye contact on who goes)

Agreed! It's a small but satisfying interaction to have that coordination and unspoken communication with other drivers at a 4-way stop.

I've taught my kids when crossing the street to make eye contact with drivers to make sure they see you. Drivers with smartphones unfortunately add to the challenge.

Reminds me of a mini-course I took on sound design. Lots of exercises in trying to squeeze expression out of a limited palette. Not too different from LEDs, but of course we have different cultural references for audio. Neat subject.

Some large trucks have that. A "city horn" that is like a normal car horn, and the traditional air horn that will rattle your windows.

The Ineos Grenadier 4x4 has a 'toot' function for cyclists, largely because Ineos is a sponsor of a cycling team.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PbGp24MIRDQ

I can corroborate this finding -- I think the horn switch is just a logic-level digital switch going into one or more MCUs somewhere, subjected to all manner of latency and (probably) CANBUS jitter. It's not great. Trying to send Morse, or even a quick 'toot toot' results in a garbled mangled mess, and I find that very annoying. My early cars & motorbike had what felt like direct, switched control over power to the horn, those were great to use. I've debated installing a dedicated pushbutton rated for the amperage or at least controlling a solenoid somewhere that would power the horn.

As an experiment, I've found that you can reliably detect the presence of crummy horn control by trying to pulse the horn for the shortest amount of time possible. The shorter my push on the horn button gets, the more likely it is that the timing will feel wrong somehow, or the horn doesn't even sound at all.

I've definitely tried friendly beeps at friends or neighbors and it came out sounding like an angry honk.

Your right and I think local culture gets the difference between the escalating "move over! I've rung my bell 5 times already" vs. the light courtesy "coming up from behind" ring

It's legally mandated in my city so I guess the polite thing to do is ring a bell, you know, just stick to the protocol, for everyone's sake. A bell however seems at least as likely to startle someone into behaving erratically as not.

As far as the pedestrian's safety is concerned what matters is either giving them a wide berth or slowing right down when passing.

Whether on a bike or not I'm sick of all the modern world's beeping and ringing and buzzing and blaring and if I'm wearing noise cancelling headphones that means I don't want to hear it. Don't tell you're being annoying for my own good because you aren't.

First reaction to warning tone should always be to (safely!) stop and assess.

Considering that the persons involved can't be expected to not be deaf, or functionally so via e.g. headphones, and thus you always have to be able to brake anyways. Running onto a driving lane (be it bikes or cars doesn't matter) without looking especially if the direction you didn't look just gave an audible warning is always reckless.

my own experience is that in the city the bell was to alert people that I think aren't paying attention to me and may be about to step into the bike lane. 100% like you said, I'm letting someone know I'm there

Now that I moved to the country with a comprehensive rails-to-trail network, I thank all the cyclists that use the bell to let me know they're coming up behind me. What really irks me is the dudes going 30+mph silently coming up behind me, passing less than 2' from my dog (who is at my side) when there's PLENTY of room to give me space. No, we can't hear them coming all the time. Yes, it's startling, rude, and dangerous for all of us.

In Germany it's illegal to drive bikes that assist beyond 28km/h (about 20mph) in what are true bike paths (which can be built as lanes! And, notably, they can be marked as virtual-lane-shared (pictogram side by side with a vertical divider) or as true shared (pictogram above and below at a horizontal divider), if pedestrians are also allowed to use them.

An ancient gas-e-bike rating is allowed on them outside city limits but iirc those bikes are exceedingly rare since even before e-bikes became truly mainstream.

> you're telling them that you're there.

Which, IMO is important. Even if they aren't in your way, it can help avoid an accident. If you're on any sort of nicer, well maintained road bike, it's going to be near silent. I've startled pedestrians on mine, so I now ring my bell every time I'm approaching someone, not as a "get out of my way" signal but more of a "hey! I'm coming up behind you, don't get startled and jump into my path"

Generally though, if its a particularly crowded path, I just ride in the road. In stop and go city traffic I'm usually going as fast if not faster than traffic anyway.

I prefer to slow down and actually just say hello to them, they'll usually say sorry and I'm back on my way again. Just ringing a bell, or worse a horn, scares them and they need to turn round to figure out where you are and whether you're about to squash them. I don't feel I have the right to do that to someone just out enjoying a peaceful walk.

On the other hand, I've been angered by dog owners when running who just take up the entire pavement. A couple of weeks ago, I had one guy coming towards me force me to come to a complete stop when I was running flat out, because he couldn't be bothered to control his dogs. He was in the centre of the pavement, and the 2 dogs were at the extreme edges with tight enough leads between him and the dogs, so it'd have tripped me up if I'd tried to jump them. He knew full well I was heading that way, but in the 10 seconds since we had made eye contact, he was clearly determined not to reign his dogs in, and it was only when I was stopped and so he had to reign them in to continuing walking past that I was able to keep using the pavement.

>Just ringing a bell, or worse a horn, scares them and they need to turn round to figure out where you are and whether you're about to squash them. I don't feel I have the right to do that to someone just out enjoying a peaceful walk.

Yes, it's very context-dependent. I'm going to behave very differently in an area where there are hundreds of cyclists every hour compared to a place where there might be one or fewer.

The real trick with bell ringing is to try to get the distance right. Too far away and they won't hear. Too close and it might startle them, and they won't have enough time to react properly.

My solution to this is that I ring my bell when I'm far from people, usually twice while I'm still a fair way away. It just gets pedestrians conscious that there's a bike around, while also being far enough away that it's not going to surprise them and I don't think they assume it's an aggressive bell.

My least favourite is when a cyclist speeds past and shouts "on ya right" (I'm in Australia) but they shout it when they're so close that there's no chance of hearing and understanding in time.

That's how I do it too. I'll tap bell once (and let the ring sustain) when I'm about ~5 seconds from overtaking them so people know there's something coming up behind them, and the sustained sound tells them how fast it's coming. This is especially important with runners, who are prone to suddenly take a U-turn if they're at the end of their route.

Pedestrians regularly wave acknowledgement or even say "thank you." Some other cyclists (especially on e-bikes) just blast by with no warning.

The problem with bells is that they aren't very directional. It's hard for my brain to figure out from which direction the sound is coming from. Someone speaking "on your left" is much more directional, and it includes important context as to what the warning is about.

Its pretty safe to assume on a trail if you hear a bell that a bike is coming up behind you.

Or from the side or oncoming and he's just behind the crowd of pedestrians ahead of you.

Yes haha - a bike coming from _somewhere_

Agreed.

I saw one recently where the cyclist shouted out something like, "ON YOUR LEFT!" and all it did was startle the crap out of a jogger who spun around into the path of the bicycle. Luckily just a close call. That cyclist's "warnings", with no time for pedestrians to react properly, were really just a game of Russian roulette. (And really rude, as you say).

Shouting that while traveling too fast is indeed incorrect, but a polite "on your left" or bell while traveling an appropriate speed is considered good behavior to avoid surprising pedestrians.

Outside of some stage actors and drill sergeants, there are probably few people who can project their voices well enough that a vocal warning is useful.

You're either traveling slow enough that it's not necessary (and why yell at people if you have to?), or are too far away for someone to understand and get a bearing on who isn't already looking at you.

A bell is still rude in a shared space but used correctly, a decent one can at least be effective.

If you just bell once or twice, and don't aggressively keep ringing, I'd never consider a bicycle bell in a shared space rude. I even consider it good manners, though as others have said, that varies between cultures.

Being visually impaired, though, I'm grateful for cyclists who use their bell. It's immediately clear. For some reason, my brain takes slightly longer to process someone yelling "on your left!" or similar, than just a quick "ring ring".

> A bell is still rude in a shared space

I just don't think that is even a little bit true, or at least it's something that is very culturally specific and thus not generally applicable.

I have a friendly sounding bell I use from an appropriate distance (and I can modulate the volume), and I routinely have people give a light wave to show they heard. In addition, the biggest complaint about cyclists in local social media is about them passing without notice.

Cyclists will normally do the same thing passing out other cyclists at a 5-10 km/h speed difference, and it's definitely useful there.

The problem is there's a good number of people that hear "on your left" and shift left.

A gentle bell mostly doesn't do that.

Yeah, I prefer a bell.

also - even though the pedestrian has the obligation to move over - a friendly thanks! or thank you! helps all cyclists in the long-run.

Yep, a wave helps as well.

This again depends on the jurisdiction and kind of path you're on. Where I grew up, if it's not separated into bicyclist & pedestrian lanes, bikes yield to pedestrians.

On US forest trails, the general rule is bikes yield to pedestrians and everyone yields to horses.

(Obviously pedestrians walking in bicycle lanes are doing it wrong.)

Unfortunately in many jurisdictions it is legally required to do that when passing a pedestrian.

Can you list some examples? When I lived in Chicago it was quite common for cyclists to shout this on the long lakefront trail, I wonder if that's the case there too.

I've never ridden in Illinois, but yeah:

> § 11-1512. Bicycles on sidewalks. (a) A person propelling a bicycle upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, shall yield the right of way to any pedestrian and shall give audible signal before overtaking and passing such pedestrian.

https://codes.findlaw.com/il/chapter-625-vehicles/il-st-sect...

No idea if the lakefront trail is classified as a sidewalk but there are at least some cases in Illinois where either a bell or a "on your left" are legally mandatory.

> A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path"

This. I only use the bell on bike paths, too. Sometimes it feels like a game of pac-man, where baddies will wander into my path from all directions and in all kinds of ways. Cars doing a right turn, zombies staring into phones, people walking backwards (!), zombies staring into phones walking backwards, it doesn't end.

The ultimate cyclist killer: those stupid extending dog leashes.

Back when I roller skated, the ultimate question: you see a person and a dog, several meters apart. Is there a leash between them? :-)

Oof. If yes, you might be about to get nailed. If no, will the dog run after me and bite me?

I’ve had a dog on my heels doing doing 40kmh.

They were at my heel, past the back of my rear tyre. I was briefly a competitive sprint cyclist.

FWIW, it's better to stop and talk to the dog. Dogs don't really want to bite you, most will just chase you and don't really even know why. If you stop and confront them, they are confused and don't know what to do next.

Get off the bike on the side opposite of the dog and keep the bike between you and the dog just in case, if you are afraid.

Nope, I was out of there. This one was a biter.

That is an issue on bike paths that are build inside a sidewalk, the cycling path is usually build using a smoother surface than the one designed for pedestrians. Plus it sometimes has a brighter paint.

I am pretty sure most people don't realize it but they are inconciously attracted to it. It just feels better walking on it.

That's an issue on any bike path in the US, even if it's a fire road in the middle of nowhere. I bet there are people walking their dogs or checking Instagram on the single track course that is used for the Red Bull Rampage.

Yeah, it happens on sidewalks, bike trails, mixed use trails, and dedicated bike lanes. If anything, dedicated bike lanes are the worst because they get errant pedestrians and cars.

No, every bike path in a city inevitably has crossings or is laid out next to a sidewalk. People just do their random-walk thing (Brownian motion, really, sometimes) and wander into the bike path.

Sometimes you clearly see more people on the bike paths than on the regular sidewalks. And I definitely attribute that to its smoother nature compared to the fake cobbles you have in many places, amplifyied if there is a baby stroller in the mix.

It's funny, because if that is true, it should give pause to city planners and officials: people prefer smooth sidewalks :-)

> Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path,

This is wrong - on mixed use paths, it is customary and proper to announce "on your left" when passing, and a bell is a nice alternative. Even cycling slowly pedestrians can do some very erratic things, and moreover are very surprised when cyclists suddenly appear on their left (and may do something dumb in surprise!).

On the bike trail it is crucial to do a shoulder check when changing lanes. Some people get "in the zone" and ignore all other traffic in the singular pursuit of the shortest times. They will get very very angry if you get in front of them, if they spot you at all instead of just slamming into your rear tire at full speed.

I personally can't stand to ride without a mirror for situational awareness (or, if on road, a mirror and also radar).

> This is wrong - on mixed use paths, it is customary and proper to announce "on your left" when passing

This is neither customarily nor regulatory uniform. There are mixed-use trails near me where bells are required. There are some trails where most people use a bell, some trails where nobody uses a bell, and some where there is a mix.

In my personal experience, the ratio of bikes to pedestrians and the purpose of the trail greatly affects how people tend to handle this.

Announcing "on your left" is a great way for someone to move left, because more often than not, they're oblivious on the shared paths, and the spotlight effect messes with their head.

It's essential on narrow shared paths e.g. a canal towpath, when you're approaching a pedestrian from behind in order to avoid startling them when you pass.

Most people walking the canal towpath around here know this, runners in particular will sometimes be give a wave or visual acknowledgement they've heard you without turning around.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/bicycle-safety

We are required to have a bell in Ontario. Ontario, at the minimum, asks us to ring a bell, or verbally communicate, when we are passing people.

I've lost count of the amount of people walking abreast taking both sides of a shared path.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've rang a bell in vain to inform them of intent to pass.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've tried verbally communicate in vain, to inform of intent to pass.

And then these path users, completely oblivious of what's going on, act like I'm the villain when I do pass them despite doing what is required of me. Some even had holler back saying that I should have ran a bell, or tell them.

If one's using a shared path, don't use headphones that completely block outside sound. If one wants to meditate, then get off the shared path.

> If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do.

It’s certainly rude to ring the bell in a aggressive manner, but many bells are capable of producing much softer, more polite sounds.

In super busy old European capitals I find that people increasingly just ride around with speakers playing a constant tune at a reasonable volume, a massive improvement on dense streets full of varyingly sober people.

I still think that ringing bells at people is a little rude, regardless of the tone. Like imagine if you were at the grocery store, blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you instead of just saying "excuse me".

IMO if I'm in a dense pedestrian zone and I can't go around people and I can't communicate by voice, it means I'm going too fast.

>blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you instead of just saying "excuse me".

Well, at least here in Europe I’d have to spend a decent amount of time deciding which language to use.

I'm also in Europe, and I always just either say the equivalent in the local language, or just use english. Even in the smallest most remote villages, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find someone who doesn't know the word "sorry".

I’ve found that speaking the wrong language often results in people freezing up as they process what I just said to them, that’s often counterproductive.

I just shout "dreen dreen".. which more or less is the sound a bike bell makes, works anywhere

I don't agree with the former, a bell is not rude if you actuate it in advance from far enough. I do that if I see people about to cross my path but looking somewhere else or if there are kids wandering because I know that kids tend to be imprevisible, are often not very aware of their surrounding and have a smaller field of view. If you are just a handful of meters from them, it is just too late to ring a bell, you should have slowed down already anyway.

There is nothing to be done against old people using noise so I just prepare to stop.

Still agree on the second statement.

On shared use trails, I suspect your voice might give out (especially given the headphone status of most pedestrians) and a bicycle bell is less ambiguous than a voice, which could be a fast walker, a runner, or a bicyclist.

I agree with you, but I can report that in Germany people ring bells constantly and it is simply considered normal. Big cultural difference.

Pedestrians still exist in non dense zones. It seems there's no way to win. I've been told that I should use a bell because vocal addresses are too startling.

Now if there's not enough room to pass safely and silently I completely slow to the pedestrians speed and THEN calmly say excuse me. But I'm convinced that there is just no universally correct way to do it. If you pass people in any way whatsoever, sooner or later someone is going to get mad about it.

A noisy free hub is my solution.

Back peddling or coasting gets people’s attention. Though moving slowly uphill and needing to back peddle is a bit of a test.

> Now if there's not enough room to pass safely and silently I completely slow to the pedestrians speed and THEN calmly say excuse me. But I'm convinced that there is just no universally correct way to do it.

Anyone who is mad that you politely passed them at a safe speed is just too sensitive about these things. You're totally fine there. But "room to pass safely and silently" could still piss people off depending on your speed and distance.

The conclusion I came to is that being totally fine there is independent from whether people could get pissed off about a thing. I try operate in a safe and reasonable manner. I'm sure some people are pissed, as some people will always be.

>> Like imagine if you were at the grocery store, blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you

That sounds delightful. We should have more bells lightly chimed around us.

It's just cultural. If there's a cultural expectation of the ring/honk it's not rude. e.g. in India people will honk as a form of active group flock behaviour but foreigners will interpret it as everyone saying "get out of my way"; but in some European countries I have seen that people use the bell (much less noisy than the typical Indian street) and it's got the same meaning. In Hawaii, if you ever honk at someone, you're going to have a fight on your hands. In San Francisco, if you honk at someone and you're on Bush Street it means you're trying to help the traffic light change (it's a team effort) but anywhere else you get anything from a gun drawn, to a brake check, to a wave in apology for missing the light by being on the phone.

Overall, cultural expectations are everything here so it's best to just "when in Rome, do as Romans do".

Can you explain to me what it means to try to get the traffic light to change on Bush street? I tried searching for it but couldn't find anything.

It was a not-particularly-amusing joke that people honk because doing so helps the light change. It doesn’t, of course, but I used to work at a building at the intersection of Bush and Sansome (I think), the Standard Oil Building, and every day at 5 PM the honking would put Bombay to shame.

Here the pedestrian-bicycle problems are much more likely to occur on dedicated bike paths than in pedestrian zones (where bicyclists must ride at walking speed). Usually a pedestrian nonchalantly crossing the bike path at an angle without paying the slightest attention to what they're doing.

The same people tend to ignore the bell. They're in their own world. I usually shout at them to move in that case. A friend of mine instead bought a loud horn connected to a can of compressed gas, which commands attention much more easily than a puny little bell. Works on car drivers, too.

> imagine if you were at the grocery store, blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you instead of just saying "excuse me"

Greetings from Sweden, where some people will verbally announce "honk honk" (tuut tuut) while avoiding eye contact – then bump into your leg with their grocery cart.

If you're in a grocery store and aren't maintaining enough situational awareness to preemptively move out of somebody's way, I file that as rude. I'm sure the ingredients on that box of slop are very engaging, but you should still be able to see and hear a shopping car rolling up on you.

> In super busy old European capitals I find that people increasingly just ride around with speakers playing a constant tune at a reasonable volume, a massive improvement on dense streets full of varyingly sober people.

I sometimes do that. It helps not having music that could be described as aggressive. I often use reggae.

However it means you need a speaker charged so it is not something I have ready everytime I use my bicycle, nor do I want to carry it everyday when leaving the bike attached somewhere so it can't be the goto solution.

> With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.

There's only a few types of car that will be "aware" of cyclists and I don't think ringing a bell will help their algorithms. Getting the attention of a driver, meanwhile, is difficult with a bell as often they'll be in a semi-soundproof cage with loud music on. (Also deaf drivers are a thing).

I've never really considered using a bell for motorised traffic. I did once buy a loud air-horn, but it was so loud and abrasive that I never used it as it seemed really rude.

> I've never really considered using a bell for motorised traffic.

It works surprisingly well if the car isn't moving quickly. Cars aren't as sound isolating as you'd think. My main use-case is that a car is stopped at an intersection, or crossing my lane so they can turn, and I'm worried they'll pull out and hit me because they're looking the wrong way focused on car traffic, and in these situations they almost always hear my bell.

Thank you, I'm a cyclist too and I always try to respect pedestrians' space, and it really pisses me off when people don't. In many cities cycling on pavement is not allowed, yet some cyclists do it... which I'd be fine with, provided they understand that they're doing something they're not supposed to be doing and that they have no priority. But when they're invading pedestrian space like that AND ring the bell as if people were supposed to be making way for them, I literally want to throw a stick in their wheels.

> But when they're invading pedestrian space like that AND ring the bell as if people were supposed to be making way for them

Honestly, I prefer that over those damn electric scooters. Most people who ride them are complete morons. They don't pay attention, ride into traffic, go at high speeds and don't care about anyone except themselves. I’ve even been hit by one.

YES! I get the point of mobility and all that but I wish someone would give a ticket to some of those a-holes. Honestly, town halls have been looking the other way for far too long on this matter.

I think bells do have a communication use of course, just not really to be used as an emergency 'an accident is about to happen, immediately take action'.

At least a bell sounds relatively polite if you're not spamming it. A horn is a bit aggressive, you have to modulate it.

In a car I use two short tapped toots as a polite kind of 'excuse me' e.g. if someone hasn't noticed a light turning green. That seems more friendly than a sustained blast.

On the bike with a bell I'll just say thank you as I pass, if they've moved for me. Usually seems to go down well enough.

it's a good habit to just ring your bell when approaching things like merges and city intersections regardless if there's other people; you tend to do it earlier and might miss seeing someone.

> I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way,

I got yelled at very rudely the other day for overtaking a pedestrian without ringing my bell. I thought I had plenty of space, rode at an appropriate speed and didn't want to be rude, like you said, but I guess you can never please everyone.

It sounds silly, but apart from liking the sound, this is why I really like wheels with loud hubs.

I have a pair of Hunt wheels and they work fantastically, bonus points because they are “always on”, pedestrians are aware of them, but are never surprised.

I hate loud hubs. So disturbing. Also comes across as passive aggressive.

See how your comment has inbuilt sass? It doesn’t matter what you consider plenty of space and an appropriate speed- if you startle me, I’m going to yell at you for not ringing a bell to let me know you were there.

Note that the worst kind of canal towpath cyclist is the one who slows to a crawl and creeps behind me for minutes sometimes unnoticed, biding their time for a passing spot with lots of space. Just ring the frigging bell and I will stand out of your way for the 3 seconds it takes you to get by!

Its a shared path yes but by two sets of people going at two very different speeds, so I don't feel particularly guilty about the bell, though I do try to avoid it if possible.

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