Comment by dleslie | Hacker News Reader

Comment by dleslie | Hacker News Reader

I have two young daughters who love video games. While there is definitely a great deal many games in my Steam Library they aren't interested in, that's mostly a reflection of my tastes not being shared by them. As it is, there are _many_ games on Steam that they've sunk thousands of hours into. Some that immediately come to mind are A Little to the Left, Unpacking, Hogwart's Legacy, Grounded, Minecraft, Tower Wizard, Little Kitty Big City, A Short Hike, Squirreled Away, Donut County, Goat Simulator 3, Plants vs Zombies, Kingdom Rush, Castle Crashers, Putt Putt, Pajama Sam...

We'll even play co-operative games of Barony, and Borderlands; but those are more that they want to spend time with their Dad. Likewise, I don't think they'd ever have picked up Castle Crashers or Kingdom Rush if I hadn't played those games in front of them and with them.

I think an important undertone in many of the games that appeal to them is that they're primarily focused on solving a puzzle and telling a narrative through puzzle resolution. Only one daughter is particularly fond of the doll dressing aspect of some games, and there are dedicated Android apps for that specific niche. Neither is particularly interested in playing first person shooters or epic CRPGs, unless it's done with my involvement. Also important is the presentation; there's only one game in those that I listed which is in any way presented with modern realism, the rest are _clearly_ stylized in a more playful manner. But maybe that's a reflection of their age?

Isn't it kind of misguided to approach this as men studying women and trying to make more things that appeal to them?

Video game distribution is insanely low friction. Last month the best selling game was Resident Evil (6m copies) and right alongside it you have a Slay the Spire 2 (3m copies) which is made and distributed by like... 15 people maybe?

I definitely don't think I could make a better game for women than women, so hopefully more girls get into playing and making games. It is definitely one of those areas where you have an opportunity to stand out from the 10,000 games that come out every day.

If we agree that women statistically have different preferences with regards to video games than men, wouldn't it also be reasonable to think that women might have difference preferences towards careers and hobbies than men?

The past 40 years we went from pinball and arcade machines, to most men playing some sort of game on a personal device (phone, console, computer etc). I could see the next 40 years capturing women in the same capacity given the right infrastructure and content.

I imagine most of that is cultural.

It would be convenient if it's cultural because it would explain why transfeminine nerds retain "masculine" nerdy interests while avoiding a faux pas.

Calling it a faux pas implies that being treated as women is a tiny, inconsequential thing for trans women. It means the world to me.

If I "retained" masculine interests, it's because I still enjoyed them, even after I no longer felt pressure to act like a man.

I played Harvest Moon, Animal Crossing, and preferred beautiful/cute games before I realized I was trans. I probably would have played more if I didn't care about my friends calling me a f--. I also like plenty of "guy" things but so do plenty of cis women. I had this exciting period of trying all sorts of new things when I came out and I'm only just starting to see what I truly enjoy when I don't worry about the opinions of others.

> Isn't it kind of misguided to approach this as men studying women and trying to make more things that appeal to them?

Why would it be misguided? There are plenty of works that are created by women that appeal to men (Harry Potter, Animorphs, Full Metal Alchemist), so I don't think there's anything wrong with men trying to make something that appeals to women.

It's the "trying" part that taints the stew.

Make art that is truthful and your audience will find you.

Knowing your audience is the most important step in serving them content they want.

I think you are saying something fundamentally different than the parent comment.

I think they are saying 'make something that appeals specifically to you as the creator, and it will resonate with some people out there'.

I personally agree that this seems top result in works I enjoy. (As evidenced by behind-the-scenes content or interviews with creators espousing a similar philosophy.)

I think my advice still follows. If you're making a game for yourself, then it's best to know and understand yourself. There's often a difference between what people think they want and what will actually bring them joy.

I'm interested in helping my daughters discover content that appeals to them, and to do that I need to understand what it is about certain games that is appealing for them.

> I definitely don't think I could make a better game for women than women, so hopefully more girls get into playing and making games.

Some of my favourite game designers and authors are women. I don't think a creator needs to share the gender, sexuality, or ethnicity of their target audience in order to make games that appeal to that audience. They need to _observe and listen_.

Who are your favorite game designers that are women?

Roberta Williams is at the top of the list; her games were a huge part of my youth. Lesser known here would be Lori Cole, who made Hero's Quest. Loved those Quest games.

Rebecca Heineman comes next; again, the games she worked on were massively influential upon me.

I have much respect for Amy Hennig, who pushed narrative gaming to new levels.

Kim Swift is responsible for _hundreds_ of hours of time lost to multiplayer games with friends of mine.

There's good odds most gamers of my age have played, and enjoyed, something worked on by Sheri Graner Ray.

Honorable mention is Corrinne Yu; I started following her career with passive interest when she was hired at 3DRealms, I expected she had the potential to be the next John Carmack.

> Lesser known here would be Lori Cole, who made Hero's Quest.

Also lesser known because due to a trademark dispute, all sequels and the VGA remakes of the series were renamed to Quest for Glory.

I deeply enjoyed that whole series in my childhood, even despite how weird the voxel-based art in the fifth game was. IIRC, I learned the "razzle dazzle root beer" cheat in Hero's Quest before I learned the Konami code, and, with the help of my dad, even learned how to hex edit my save games in Quest for Glory 2.

> Neither is particularly interested in playing first person shooters or epic CRPGs, unless it's done with my involvement.

This is interesting, as my five year old daughter loves Pillars of Eternity. That being said, she mostly just likes to watch me fighting monsters and change the outfits of the characters.

She absolutely adores the simulation games (Avatar World, Toca Boca World etc) which leads me to believe that she'd love the Sims. I wonder if I can get them on Switch?

She has Animal Crossing, but there's a lot of text there which she isn't yet comfortable with.

Toca Boca World is a game my daughters (8 and 10) love, and i completely don't understand. It doesn't seem to have a goal or any mechanics --they're just playing dolls on a screen, which is cool but with so little interactivity i think i'd rather they just play with dolls (which they do also...)

Animal crossing has very recently started to take over as "favorite video game", and at least there's a *game* there...

> It doesn't seem to have a goal or any mechanics --they're just playing dolls on a screen, which is cool but with so little interactivity i think i'd rather they just play with dolls

> Animal crossing has very recently started to take over as "favorite video game", and at least there's a game there...

A large part of the problem here is that folks believe that "game" necessarily implies goals and mechanics.

From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/game

> 1. a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other

vs

> 2. activity engaged in for diversion or amusement

Lots of folks see it as definition 1 (cooperative is still a contest against some non-player), whereas your girls seem to be operating under definition 2.

The equivalent to your statement from the other side of the fence would be women that deride male competition.

At the end of the day, we likes what we likes. Doing fun things is the fullest definition of a game. So the application of the priciple looks different depending on what the people enjoy.

I touched on it in my way-too-long post elsewhere on here, but I think this is exactly it: there's a (fuzzy at some boundary, sure, but useful) distinction to be drawn on something like where the game happens. Does "the game" (the software) supply most or all of "the game"? Or is "the game" (the software) a toy in service of a game that the player brings and gives shape?

Both types of software plausibly "are video games" but can take extremely different forms, and their appeal may diverge wildly—someone who likes one to an extreme, may have zero interest in the other. Others may like both sorts of play, but not regard them as interchangeable (i.e. if what you're wanting at the moment is an e-sport, a visual novel may not be any amount of a satisfactory substitute, even if you like visual novels).

We tend to draw a "toy/game" distinction (with games perhaps being a subset of "toys", but still its own sub-category, anyway) with physical objects to divide those with built-in goals from those without, and that seems to serve us well, but we've not translated that to the digital realm very well (and maybe we shouldn't, I dunno)

> This is interesting, as my five year old daughter loves Pillars of Eternity.

Funnily enough, PoE is the game I've been needling my eldest to try for _years_ now. The PoE games are fabulous CRPGs that I've played through twice each, myself; I expected that she would love the mix of puzzle solving, narrative, and strategy. But it just didn't hook, for whatever reason.

> That being said, she mostly just likes to watch me fighting monsters and change the outfits of the characters.

Oh, well, yes. My kids love watching me play whatever game I'm playing. That's different: they are choosing to show interest in my interests in order to spend time with me.

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