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Comment by wildrhythms | Hacker News Reader

"We've done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical. It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. it doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible."

-Steve Jobs, 2010

https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-touch-screen-mac-...

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“Who wants a stylus? You have to get ’em and put ’em away, and you lose ’em. Yuck. Nobody wants a stylus. So let’s not use a stylus. We’re going to use the best pointing device in the world. We’re going to use a pointing device that we’re all born with—born with ten of them. We’re going to use our fingers.”

— Steve Jobs, 2007

(8 years before the introduction of the Apple Pencil)

The Pencil isn’t a stylus. At least not primarily. It’s designed for freehand. This is probably why they insisted on it charging via Lightning by removing its end cap. They didn’t want people getting ideas.

When Steve Jobs said that, he was talking about a stylus as a main or even only input device. And he is still right about it. The Apple Pencil for the iPad never was a main input device but an alternative.

That wasn't the only time Jobs trashed a category Apple didn't currently have annon-sale model for, but was actively developing; he also slurred 6-inch Android phones as "Hummers", and mocked the 7-inch Android tablets as "too small" a little while before Apple launched its iPad Mini.

Exactly, but watch people leap into to defend how brilliant he supposedly was.

I see no contradiction.

There’s no contradiction here. Jobs’ point was about the MAIN input method. A touchscreen that requires a stylus as main input method still is a terrible idea. The Apple Pencil is meant for alternative and creative input, something you can’t do well with your fingers.

Please, leave that reddit-esque “iSheep”-type of comment out of here.

To be fair, 7.9 inches is quite a bit bigger than 7 inches. That's ~30% more screen area.

Touch input needn't be the main input to a laptop with a keyboard and a trackpad...

And here we are, and the Pencil STILL doesn't work on the defectively oversized trackpads on Apple laptops.

So... we're talking about more than one blunder here.

> And here we are, and the Pencil STILL doesn't work on the defectively oversized trackpads on Apple laptops.

Many (including me) argue that Apple sells the best trackpads ever made, the size being a key attribute.

That and the excellent palm rejection. Probably why other manufactures didn't make track pads as large

It's just like Apple to create a problem and then have to implement an overly-complicated and flawed "solution."

Then they're not paying attention to how little of the pad they actually use, and the irritating-as-hell spurious presses that can cost you several minutes (or more) of work.

There's nothing like filling out a form (or comment) on a Web page to have it suddenly reload or back-page, deleting everything you entered.

I've literally never had a "spurious press" on a modern Apple trackpad.

I absolutely loathed non-Apple ones when I had to use them, the palm detection was completely useless and the cursor just swooshed around. I usually disabled the touchpad in the BIOS and just used the red nipple-mouse on Lenovos instead.

I love the Mac trackpad but would love it more if the pencil worked with it

A larger and, more importantly, taller trackpad that also functions like a Wacom with Apple Pencil, which would compel Apple to adopt a more square display, 3:2 or 4:3, capable of showing more lines of code. Too bad that would cannibalize the iPad line, so Apple would never do it.

Calling Apple’s trackpad defective and/oversized has got to be one of the most tone-deaf and uninformed things I’ve seen this year.

Please.

Then you obviously don't do much work with it.

8 hours a day every work day for the last 15+ years, plus whatever I do at home with just a laptop (I have an external touchpad for most use).

You must have some weirdly conductive palms or something.

For a device that fits in your hand I understand his argument, for something that takes more than one hand to hold, I can see the usefulness of a different "pointer" device, but also, artists use things like the Apple Pencil, it makes way more sense.

> (8 years before the introduction of the Apple Pencil)

I have briefly used one of the old PDAs with Windows Mobile and a stylus, and i have an ipad with an apple pencil.

They are two completely different experiences.

A stylus is clunky, particularly if you consider styluses as they were back in the day: pieces of dumb plastic with a specific shape to fit in the PDA itself, to be used on dumb resistive touch screens.

the apple pencil (as well as other modern styluses) are completely different, and work on capacitive touch screens.

The original "gorilla arm" UX research is much older. However, Microsoft surface was something of a niche hit, and spawned a number of clones. PC laptops with touchscreens are quite prevalent even if they're not in the full-hinge form factor. They work a lot better if you can lay the screen flat or at a low angle in your lap.

Re: the stylus sub-thread, I've actually used cheap Android resistive+stylus phones and a Compaq Palm Pilot clone and .. yes, they were really bad compared to modern phone interfaces. The stylus has a niche market for artists, who need a high quality pressure sensitive version.

(edit: attempting to find the original citation for "gorilla arm" takes me to the Jargon File and the early 1980s. Along the way I found the delightful existence of a UX researcher with the name Sebastian Boring, though)

I've used two touchscreen laptops during the Windows 7 era, and I'd largely agree with Jobs. It's great for some niche cases, but sits unused 99% of the time. Of course that was before Windows 8 completely redesigned the UI to better support touch, but that also hasn't lead to an appreciable portion of Windows laptops selling with touchscreens.

The Surface devices are a bit of an exception. For the tablets it works great. The convertibles that were a laptop with a screen that can turn into a tablet (or just be attached in reverse, so you have a very heavy but powerful tablet) were also great presentation laptops. Though apparently that niche was too small to support the exotic hardware. I don't quite get the appeal of the current surface laptops. But the ones I see in the wild are almost all the tablet surface devices.

> I've used two touchscreen laptops during the Windows 7 era

To be fair, the point at which Microsoft rewrote their UI to be touch-friendly was Windows 8, inspired by Windows Phone (RIP).

> Of course that was before Windows 8 completely redesigned the UI to better support touch

It's great for some niche cases

With my left hand, I poke the required bits of my corporate training modules. With my right hand, I rest my fingers behind the right side of my display and quickly click the "next" button. I get through training in record time.

This is the only time I use the touchscreen on my (non-convertible) laptop. It seems like touchscreen is most useful when you have big enough targets spread out over the page. Most software I use isn't designed like that. Aiming for the restore button may result in hitting the close button...

That's only an argument against using it as the primary interface. There have been many, many times for me where it was so much easier to reach for the screen and touch a button, than to reach for the mouse and maneuver the cursor over the button to click it.

It shouldn't be the only way to interact, but as an option, it's awesome.

Yeah, as I noted elsethread, I use a proprietary drawing program thus, and it allowed the program to work w/o keyboard shortcuts for years....

I wonder what people will say when Apple releases the touch screen MacBook later this year then.

That it’s a silly idea, mostly. But some people will love it. As with anything Apple does.

(Longtime Apple user.)

And then everyone will realize that it's stupid shit, like the embarrassing emoji bar on Jony Ive's MacBook "Pro."

They'll say it sucks ass, and they'll be right.

Touchscreen computers have failed for a reason.

Then again... so did "transparent" UI, which Apple just exhumed.

> They'll say it sucks ass, and they'll be right.

And yet my wife will disagree hard with you, as all her fingerprints on my laptop screen will attest to. She always defaults to trying to swipe the screen instead of going to the mouse.

> Touchscreen computers have failed for a reason.

The only people who think touch screens have failed are people who actually use computers, and we are a tiny minority of the population these days. The majority of people live on touchscreen devices already.

Your wife actually swipes at a non touch screen thinking it is a touch screen?

Some people actually do do that, yes. It's a force of habit especially if they have another touch screen computer.

Average users won't, like the sibling comment notes, and that's who Apple generally targets; only power users complain. And not sure where you are getting the idea that touchscreen computers failed, many models with touchscreens have great sales figures, Surface for one notable example, Lenovo's for another.

The Surface is a tablet.

I don't know one person who has a touchscreen computer. It's a dumb way to work: not only impractical because your finger is too crude of a pointing device and your hand blocks your view of what you're trying to manipulate, but also uncomfortable to wave your arms around in front of you all day... pushing the lid of your laptop away to boot.

The Surface is a computer. Just because you don't like touchscreens doesn't mean other people don't.

I have a touchscreen laptop and I love it.

Mainly for stuff like quickly moving windows or highlighting.

But also I'm shocked Slay the Spire 2 on KDE is just working perfectly with the touch screen. Card games feel pretty natural with touch screens.

I had several PCs with touch screen and this absolutely true. Even intermittent use is not something I did, it’s just too inconvenient to ever become a habit, so the few times it’d be great, I don’t think about it being there because it’s not in my active list of affordances.

The problem with touchscreen laptops is you have to reach over the keyboard and trackpad to actually touch the screen to make it work, and that's physically uncomfortable and kind of inconvenient.

The answer is to make them fold flat so you're just looking at the screen with the keyboard facing away from you (and, ideally, disabled by a switch in the hinge so when you put it down you don't zkjltohtrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrolkmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Then, of course, it becomes annoying and inconvenient to use in a different way, but at least you get really really good at replacing the little flexi PCB ribbon that connects the screen through the hinge.

It's totally pointless, because the trackpad is already a touch device... and you use it to manipulate a precise cursor that doesn't block your view of what you're working on.

Except that the trackpad has to be used to get the cursor all the way over to the control --- it's often faster to just reach out and touch, and if using a stylus, then the cursor goes right back to where the other hand was working as soon as one lowers it back into hover range.

I can move my cursor across my entire screen without lifting my wrist with the trackpad. It is vastly easier than tapping at a screen.

And requires a LOT less effort too. There simply is no real benefit to a touchscreen on a laptop. It’s ridiculous. It’s the phablet of laptops. Insane.

I find it lends a lot to the flexibility of the device --- but I'm using a touchscreen on a convertible which I can flatten out into a tablet w/ keyboard to one side or the other, or fully reverse into an expansive tablet.

Flexibility in what way?

Spurious keyboard inputs and broken ribbon cables may have been issues in 2003, but tablet-mode laptops made in the last 15 years face no such issues; e.g. the many generations of the Lenovo Yoga series in that period. In 2026, even 7mm-thick phones can have reliable 180°/-180° folding screens - laptops have a lot more volume to play with and fewer lifetime open/close events.

Apple's problems with touchscreen laptops are not mechanical; if Apple were to make a decent touchscreen laptop - say a 12" MacBook Air, it'd have a 360° hinge and cannibalize iPad sales, so they don't make that device to preserve the segmentation motivating people to buy both devices.

It's not uncomfortable and inconvenient. There are many times when it's much more convenient to reach for the screen than to reach for the mouse or touchpad and carefully move the cursor. Touching the screen directly is much more natural for the occasional interaction. For prolonged use, nothing beats the mouse (and yet laptops still come with a touchpad and sometimes a clitmouse).

Carefully move the cursor? Come on. It is a subconcious action. How do you think people play fps games? Do you even use a mouse yourself or maybe have some physical disability that impairs you?

Then, on the rare occasion where you do use it, you end up with a single finger smudge that lasts until you find the will to clean it.

I work for a company which has developed a special purpose drawing (well, entry-level CAD) app, and for a long while, it didn't have keyboard shortcuts, and that was probably because I mostly used it on my Toshiba Encore 2 Write 10/Samsung Galaxy Book 12/Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360, so would use it w/ touch and stylus, which was quick/natural enough that I never felt the need for keyboard shortcuts.

Such usages pretty much want a very flexible device though --- I'll often use mine fully flat on a lap desk and will rotate it in various ways depending on what I'm doing, and will then further mix in using my Kindle Scribe and Samsung Galaxy Note 10+ (which use the same stylus tech as the GB12/GB3Pro360).

Sometimes I'll add my MacBook into the mix by way of a Wacom One display, but I have a 1st gen unit, so no touch, so every so often I'll find myself dragging at it to scroll or tapping a control with my left hand to no effect.

I'd like to try Apple Sidecar on an iPad (which arguably is Apple's touch interface), but can't justify the expense, esp. for yet another stylus (I couldn't easily count how many I own, and carry a spare Lamy Wacom EMR in my sling bag), esp. a stylus which only works on one device.

Still waiting on Apple to make a replacement for the Newton --- the smallest size iPad which supports the Apple Pencil is close, but I need something daylight viewable, hence the Kindle Scribe (which I'm going to be replacing w/ the KS Colorsoft presently).

I have never owned a touchscreen laptop and I agree with most of the criticism in comments here against it. But after just briefly using one from my father I have to say there is some thing in our brain that makes it kinda more satisfying, if that is the right word, to touch on things that appear on a screen. Even as a power user being used to just using keyboard most of the time, after 10 minutes with a touchscreen my mind prefers to touch on screen instead of touchpad.

...wait until you see Munority Report.

Nobody forces you to use touchscreen exclusively?

If that's the case then the interface will remain a compromise that has to work for both point and touch, and ends up being suboptimal for both. Touch input necessitates bigger hit targets, lots of additional negative space around important buttons rather than groups, and a much lower information density on anything that has a click/touch handler like a list in order to avoid accidental presses. Apps need to be written with a touch UI in mind to work well.

It will likely compromise anti-glare performance too, since an oleophobic treatment will be required for the screen to not instantly be covered in a haze of fingerprints. For someone who has no use for touch this is a strict downgrade.

The only way touch on MacBooks can make a shred of sense is if it’s a non-default option in the configurator, much like the current nanotexture matte option.

The line of thinking here applies to accessibility features as well. Luckily, it is uncool to say those things against the accessibility features, and there are even many good preemptive positive arguments, such as “a good design with accessibility in mind benefits everyone”. And those same arguments do apply for touch-enabled design as well; a good design with touch input in mind can benefit all.

You say that now. And yet Apple now forces you to use shitty Bluetooth headphones to listen to its most popular music player.

What product are you referring to? One where you can’t use USB-C headphones or an adapter?

Not while you're charging.

Not while you’re charging via USB-C

I’ve got a MagSafe nightstand and powerbank that both leave the port free. I do use Bluetooth for audio so I don’t actually ever use the USB-C port at all.

Yeah, because I want to junk up my car with all that crap. You're just admitting that your "thin, elegant" Apple product becomes a Christmas tree of dongles to make it practical.

lol, it seems like you got out of the wrong side of the bed. My car (Tesla) has in-built Qi charging and a place to put both the driver and passenger phones, along with Bluetooth. I literally never use a cable with my phone.

"Getting up on the wrong side of the bed" replaces your car?

What a world you live in.

You seem to be angry at something and I’m not sure what. You don’t need to replace your car to add Bluetooth support or Qi charging to it but I think you know that there are cheap ways to do that already. It sounds like you don’t have to or want to and that’s ok too.

But you're sure I'm "angry?" Maybe your point of view is skewed toward apathy.

When a manufacturer deliberately creates a perpetual pain in the ass with anti-consumer actions such as deleting the headphone jacks from media-centric devices, it should be no surprise that self-respecting consumers will condemn that move. If you find it surprising that people are annoyed by such actions, I don't know what to tell you.

> But you're sure I'm "angry?"

Yes, by the way you come across whether you mean to or not.

I guess I’m not self respecting by your definition, in my wire-free existence.

The reason you want a touchscreen on a laptop isn't so that you can use it for "an extended period of time" but rather so that you can use it to do the few things that are painful with a touchpad, like drag and drop.

That is painful for you on a touchpad?

Are you asking about my sensitivity to pain here or disagreeing that this is easier with a touchscreen?

Both.

There’s been plenty of times where I would rather drag an item on the screen than fiddle with the sometimes flaky responsiveness and range of a touchpad. I’m usually fussy about my Asus laptop’s pad - the MacBook _usually_ does fine in the touchpad area. The best was my old ThinkPad’s nipple - preferable in most ways to what I use touchpads for at all.

I know I don't want, nor do I want anyone else, touching my Mac screen. Steve Jobs quote notwithstanding. They are pretty good at getting dirty on their own.

Yea but now they're selling $400+ Magic Keyboards for iPads which then function exactly in this vertical way. No difference. I've typed this on one.

I have used a couple of laptops with touchscreens, and the experience was awful, even with the latest technology. If Apple gave us an iPhone or iPad-quality touchscreen on MacBooks, I am 100% sure the experience would be perfect.

I have a laptop with a touchscreen that I regularly forget is a touchscreen until I accidentally touch it.

Same. My work laptop has a touch screen and every now and then, when I remember that fact, I’ll use it to scroll through a few pages of a PDF. It gives me a chuckle because it’s so inefficient and inaccurate… then I immediately revert to my click-wheel mouse.

Yeah, but this was also strategically in Apple's interest to sell the iPads with nerfed up iPad OS as a separate line up. I love Steve Jobs and all, but this did NOT age well. The millions of people using Surface and Surface Pro will absolutely disagree with this take.

Yeah I have a Surface Laptop Studio. Windows 11 is generally awful to the point where I have switched to Bazzite for my desktop, but the form factor with touch support (and pen support) is great. Easel mode is great for drawing, tablet mode is pretty good for drawing as well and also for casual browsing or for displaying DND character sheet info. Even in laptop mode sometimes I find myself using it to scroll a bit on pages.

did steve jobs ever see an easel?

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