Fact-checkers: Talking crap in Holland v America
economist.com
economist.com
So it's a strong cultural thing. There are no mainstream politicians here who hold scientifically untenable positions about evolution, global warming, vaccinations/autism, abortion, and so on. They'd get ridiculed, and rightly so.
This does not mean that rationality prevails in the Netherlands, unfortunately. Austerity measures are seen as the obviously responsible thing to do, even though economists don't agree. As a result we're looking at an economic recovery significantly worse than the one in the US. The GDP growth is projected at a meager 1.5% per year until 2017.
scientifically untenable positions about evolution, global warming, vaccinations/autism, abortion
What is the scientifically untenable position about abortion? As far as I know there is no scientific controversy concerning abortion in general, but rather it is wholly a moral question.
The argument that can be summed up as 'life starts at conception'.
In the UK there are moves to reduce the time limits for abortion. At the moment it is possible for a woman to have an abortion at under 24 weeks.
The science comes in because politicians say that it's possible for infants to survive if they're born under 24 weeks, and that's one reason to reduce the limits.
The problems are:
- we do not have abortion on demand in the UK. There can be delays in getting the tests and etc. This is one reason why abortions are sometimes carried out over 12 weeks. Changing the law to allow abortion on demand under 12 weeks may increase the numbers of those abortions, but also decrease the numbers of abortions carried out over 12 weeks.
- very few abortions are carried out at over 20 weeks. It's likely to be distressing for the woman and her partner. It's almost certainly because the child has a condition incompatible with life. This isn't just a child who will live a short and miserable life of a few years; it is a child who will live at most a few days. Reducing the time limits will increase the number of women forced to carry this child to term, and to give birth to it, and to watch it die after a few hours or days.
- Survivability of infants born under 24 weeks is not great. Doctors spend a lot of time (and money) making big interventions to keep these children alive. Many doctors and nurses do not feel that these interventions are humane.
You're right that most of the decisions to be made about abortion are purely moral, but some people are making scientificky claims for their position. Those people need to be using correct information.
You could lower the limit based on survivability but still allow provisos for severely diabled children. I believe you can exceed the 24 week limit now in such cases.
I'd be in favour of a panel of doctors and scientists that get to review the limit every two years, based on advantages or otherwise in infant survivability.
" Some question the usefulness of the economic models the CPB uses, which (like all economic models) have never successfully predicted what the economy will do several years down the road."
The problem with any sort of fact checking agency in regards to economics, while useful, is far from a magic crystal ball. Economics is a pretty vague sort of thing that straddles the line between between the humanities and hard science. As a former economics student, I can tell you I've met very brilliant people who have adamantly disagree with one another, yet both have excellent insights. It's tough to definitely say that x plan is better than y plan, because there are so many what if scenarios and assumptions to rely on. That being said, I find it's generally better to trust whoever has articulated their plan better. Simply the act of extrapolating out their assumptions means that while they may be wrong, we can look and see if they've taken into account the metrics that matter.
For example, check out this graph, which breaks up the effects of the new government by income level: http://static3.volkskrant.nl/static/photo/2012/14/8/6/201211...
The idea that you would do better by listening to the words of politicians on TV, than a group of experts working on this full time who actually calculate the effects of all the proposed policies sounds preposterous to me.
> there are currently ten parties represented in parliament, four to six of which are major contenders.
makes me insane with jealousy. What is it that enables this number of parties to remain viable? My first guess would be that the voting system is not first-past-the-post, but I can't find that info after a cursory Wikipedia search.
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_Netherlands#Pol...
That is different from, for example, Germany, where seats are proportionally distributed among parties that got at least 5% of the votes.
So, the theoretical maximum number of parties in parliament is 150 in the Nethelands, but 20 in Germany.
This was the result of so-called strategic voters. Left-wing voters people feared that the VVD (the liberals) would become the largest party and voted for the PvdA (labour party) en masse.
Interestingly this resulted in even more right wing voters voting for the VVD, instead of a smaller party. Right now we are stuck with two titans—that also happen to have opposing views.
Fortunately both parties were able to form a coalition. Albeit with the necessary financial consequences. The labour party let the VVD cut mercilessly on government expenses, although it pretty much decided who should get hit the most; the higher incomes.
And/or historical accident. Maybe it's like the appendix - not the result of any modern circumstance, but it's here to stay for the foreseeable future.
So this "fact-check" seems to invert the truth--the Democrats have given no details about their plans, while the Republicans have been very specific about theirs, whether or not you agree with them.
So since September 2010, to keep the government functioning, Congress has passed a series of seven continuing resolutions. In their frustration at the unwillingness of the Democratic Senators to propose a budget resolution, the Republicans even brought President Obama's proposal up for a vote this last year, but it went down 0-99 in a rare show of bipartisanship. Admittedly a stunt, but the point is that Democrats are refusing to negotiate by ordinary procedures.
The Budget Process is clearly broken, and it's a serious problem for the economy and country. The non-partisan "No Labels" organization has echoed Independent former Senator Joe Lieberman in calling for a serious reform of the budget process.
Also, the blog article in question prominently attacked Rep. Ryan, and said the Romney-Ryan campaign did not have a budget plan. At least part of it was a typical partisan hit piece implying "facts" existed where they didn't.
>> In the Dutch electoral system, this can't happen. Two months before the elections, every political party is expected to submit a detailed budget plan to a non-partisan agency called the Central Plan Bureau (CPB), which plays a role similar to the Congressional Budget Office in America. The CPB produces an analysis of the economic consequences of those budget plans. The effects are assessed in detail for 2013-2017, and there's also a prognosis for 2040 to discourage parties from larding up their budgets with short-term candy that leads to negative long-term consequences.
So, what happens instead, is that all parties write up their budget plan in a way that they expect will yield the most favorable CPB calculations for their intended audience. Contrary to most voters, they realize full well that most of their plans will never be realized, because the Dutch political systems is built around political coalitions, where multiple parties (typically 2, 3 or 4) have to make compromises. Almost inevitably, this means the sharp edges are taken off, and typically it's exactly the sharp edges that influence the CPB calculations the most.
>> The CPB's report came out Monday, and most parties had their strong and weak points. Of the two parties most likely to win the elections, the Liberals did well on deficit-cutting and long-term job creation but hiked income inequality and hurt household purchasing power; the Socialists did well on purchasing power and jobs in the short run but had low employment growth in the long run.
In the mean time, we had our elections, and the resulting coalition comprises the liberal party (VVD) and the socalist party (PvdA). Together, they negotiated their plans for the coming 4 years. And guess what: the net effect of these plans is almost the exact opposite of what the 2 parties have been advertising during election time.
The liberal party agreed to health care reforms that will actually decrease income inequality, and will have a huge impact on upper middle class incomes, up to 10% net income loss. They also agreed to cut tax benefits for home owners, which again mostly hurts upper middle class incomes. In exchange, the socialists agreed on labor market reforms that will cut unemployment benefits, and on housing market reforms that will increase the cost of living for people who rent, usually people with lower incomes.
The last few weeks there has been a raging debate here, because voters on both sides feel cheated. People who voted the liberal party feel particularly cheated, because the current plans hurt them disproportionally, while at the same time they will destroy jobs, reduce consumer spending, and hence are very bad for economic growth. The only rationale for these measurements is redistribution of wealth, which the socialists traded for reducing social security. All iof this goes against everything the liberal party stands for, never ever have the liberals even hinted that they would agree with such measures.
So tl;dr: Even though the unbiased analysis of the plans the different parties have reduces fact-free policies, it's far from a guarantee that after the elections, the winning parties will simply make a 180 degree turn and screw you over anyway.
Anyway, my point wasn't that there's something wrong with our political system, or that compromises are bad or something. Just that the fact that it's harder for parties to outright lie about the effects of their intended plans, doesn't automatically make them trustworthy.
Please note I'm not trying to make a point about the politics themselves, just about the different ways politicians can and will deceive voters even when they can't outright make up facts about the effects of their policies. I didn't vote for either of the two winning parties.
Be careful what you wish for. There are only two ways for parties to avoid abandoning their campaign promises. One is for a single winning party to have complete control over government policy. The other is for minority parties to prevent the government from implementing any policy at all. In the U.S. we have politicians who promise to derail the government and leave it a smoking ruin rather than allow any part of the other party's platform to be implemented.
Fact-checkers are not infallible, either. It's usually someone who doesn't know the issue at all looking it up on Wikipedia or interviewing an "expert" with his own biases to get an answer.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/11/05/the-ten-worst-fa... is from a conservative viewpoint, so read it with a grain of salt, but it's should be enough to make you skeptical of the whole process.
Yes, but there are enough things that are incontrovertibly right and wrong, like a lot of pundit predictions of this last election. Even if this were not the case with anything whatsoever, there is clear value in being able to look up a pundit and see all of the predictions and statements in one place.
Fact-checkers are not infallible, either. It's usually someone who doesn't know the issue at all looking it up on Wikipedia or interviewing an "expert" with his own biases to get an answer.
So there would be 3 or 5 grades for predictions and factual/nonsense statements made by pundits.
It's impossible for a neutral arbiter to preserve its public legitimacy when ruling on subjects of partisan dispute in an election if there are only two disputing parties. Neither side will accept the referee's judgments.
So it works in sports, but doesn't work in politics for some reason?
Understatement of the century.
So, the election may affect Dutch economy. Doubly so because the economy of the Netherlands is highly dependent on foreign trade. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...:
- GDP : $840 billion
- Imports: $492 billion (5.9% from the USA)
- Exports: $550 billion
(some economists joke that it isn't necessary to have a Dutch minister of economics, as there is no way local policy can compensate for the effect of foreign economies on that of the Netherlands)