Biggest open question is whether the small changes to the module system in this standard will actually lead to more widespread adoption
It's nice to have new features, but what is really killing C++ is Cargo. I don't think a new generation of developers are going to be inspired to learn a language where you can't simply `cargo add` whatever you need and instead have to go through hell to use a dependency.
C and C++ are usually stuck in that antiquated thinking that you should build a module, package it into some libraries, install/export the library binaries and associated assets, then import those in other projects. That makes everything slow, inefficient, and widely dangerous.
There are of course good ways of building C++, but those are the exception rather than the standard.
What are the good ways?
You should also avoid libraries, as they reduce granularity and needlessly complexify the logic.
I'd also argue you shouldn't have any kind of declaration of dependencies and simply deduce them transparently based on what the code includes, with some logic to map header to implementation files.
Which tool do you use for content-addressable storage in your builds?
>You should also avoid libraries, as they reduce granularity and needlessly complexify the logic.
This isn't always feasible though.
What's the best practice when one cannot avoid a library?
You hash all the inputs that go into building foo.cpp, and then that gives you /objs/<hash>.o. If it exists, you use it; if not, you build it first. Then if any other .cpp file ever includes foo.hpp (directly or indirectly), you mark that it needs to link /objs/<hash>.o.
You expand the link requirements transitively, and you have a build system. 200 lines of code. Your code is self-describing and you never need to write any build logic again, and your build system is reliable, strictly builds only what it needs while sharing artifacts across the team, and never leads to ODR.
Bazel is certainly not the solution; it's arguably closer to being the problem. The worst build system I have ever seen was Bazel-based.
Really? I'd love a link to even something that works as a toy project
> Bazel is certainly not the solution; it's arguably closer to being the problem. The worst build system I have ever seen was Bazel-based.
I agree
I usually make it so that it's fully integrated with wherever we store artifacts (for CAS), source (to download specific revisions as needed), remote running (which depending on the shop can be local, docker, ssh, kubernetes, ...), GDB, IDEs... All that stuff takes more work for a truly generic solution, and it's generally more valuable to have tight integration for the one workflow you actually use.
Since I also control the build image and toolchain (that I build from source) it also ends up specifically tied to that too.
In practice, I find that regardless of what generic tool you use like cmake or bazel, you end up layering your own build system and workflow scripts on top of those tools anyway. At some point I decided the complexity and overhead of building on top of bazel was more trouble than it was worth, while building it from scratch is actually quite easy and gives you all the control you could possibly need.
If you import some ready made binaries, you have no way to guarantee they are compatible with the rest of your build or contain the features you need. If anything needs updating and you actually bother to do it for correctness (most would just hope it's compatible) your only option is usually to rebuild the whole thing, even if your usage only needed one file.
Rust is interested in having a properly thought out ABI that's nicer than the C ABI which it supports today. It'd be nice to have say, ABI for slices for example. But "freeze everything and hope" isn't that, it means every user of your language into the unforeseeable future has to pay for every mistake made by the language designers, and that's already a sizeable price for C++ to pay, "ABI: Now or never" spells some of that out and we don't want to join them.
The de-facto ABI for slices involves passing/storing pointer and length separately and rebuilding the slice locally. It's hard to do better than that other than by somehow standardizing a "slice" binary representation across C and C-like languages. And then you'll still have to deal with existing legacy code that doesn't agree with that strict representation.
Obviously it's easier to provide a stable ABI for say &'static [T] (a reference which lives forever to an immutable slice of T) or Option<NonZeroU32> (either a positive 32-bit unsigned integer, or nothing) than for String (amortized growable UTF-8 text) or File (an open file somewhere on the filesystem, whatever that means) and it will never be practical to provide some sort of "stable ABI" for arbitrary things like IntoIterator -- but that's exactly why the C++ choice was a bad idea. In practice of course the internal guts of things in C++ are not frozen, that would be a nightmare for maintenance teams - but in theory there should be no observable effect from such changes and so that discrepancy leads to endless bugs where a user found some obscure way to depend on what you'd hidden inside some implementation detail, the letter of the ISO document says your change is fine but the practice of C++ development says it is a breaking change - and the resulting engineering overhead at C++ vendors is made even worse by all the UB in real C++ software.
This is the real reason libc++ still shipped Quicksort as its unstable sort when Biden was President, many years after this was in theory prohibited by the ISO standard† Fixing the sort breaks people's code and they'd rather it was technically faulty and practically slower than have their crap code stop working.
† Tony's Quicksort algorithm on its own is worse than O(n log n) for some inputs, you should use an introspective comparison sort aka introsort here, those existed almost 30 years ago but C++ only began to require them in 2011.
It seems to me the "convenient" options are the dangerous ones.
The traditional method is for third party code to have a stable API. Newer versions add functions or fix bugs but existing functions continue to work as before. API mistakes get deprecated and alternatives offered but newly-deprecated functions remain available for 10+ years. With the result that you can link all applications against any sufficiently recent version of the library, e.g. the latest stable release, which can then be installed via the system package manager and have a manageable maintenance burden because only one version needs to be maintained.
Language package managers have a tendency to facilitate breaking changes. You "don't have to worry" about removing functions without deprecating them because anyone can just pull in the older version of the code. Except the older version is no longer maintained.
Then you're using a version of the code from a few years ago because you didn't need any of the newer features and it hadn't had any problems, until it picks up a CVE. Suddenly you have vulnerable code running in production but fixing it isn't just a matter of "apt upgrade" because no one else is going to patch the version only you were using, and the current version has several breaking changes so you can't switch to it until you integrate them into your code.
First you confuse API and ABI.
Second there is no practical difference between first and third-party for any sufficiently complex project.
Third you cannot have multiple versions of the same thing in the same program without very careful isolation and engineering. It's a bad idea and a recipe for ODR violations.
In any non-trivial project there will be complex dependency webs across different files and subprojects, and humans are notoriously bad at packaging pieces of code into sensible modules, libraries or packages, with well-defined and maintained boundaries. Being able to maintain ABI compatibility, deprecating things while introducing replacement etc. is a massive engineering work and simply makes people much less likely to change the way things are done, even if they are broken or not ideal. That's an effort you'll do for a kernel (and only on specific boundaries) but not for the average program.
I'm not confusing API with ABI. If you don't have a stable ABI then you essentially forfeit the traditional method of having every program on the system use the same copy (and therefore version) of that library, which in turn encourages them to each use a different version and facilitates API instability by making the bad thing easier.
> Second there is no practical difference between first and third-party for any sufficiently complex project.
Even when you have a large project, making use of curl or sqlite or openssl does not imply that you would like to start maintaining a private fork.
There are also many projects that are not large enough to absorb the maintenance burden of all of their external dependencies.
> Third you cannot have multiple versions of the same thing in the same program without very careful isolation and engineering.
Which is all the more reason to encourage every program on the system to use the same copy by maintaining a stable ABI. What do you do after you've encouraged everyone to include their own copy of their dependencies and therefore not care if there are many other incompatible versions, and then two of your dependencies each require a different version of a third?
> In any non-trivial project there will be complex dependency webs across different files and subprojects, and humans are notoriously bad at packaging pieces of code into sensible modules, libraries or packages, with well-defined and maintained boundaries.
This feels like arguing that people are bad at writing documentation so we should we should reduce their incentive to write it, instead of coming up with ways to make doing the good thing easier.
In C, ABI = API because the declaration of a function contains the name and arguments, which is all the info needed to use it. You can swap out the definition without affecting callers.
That's why Rust allows a stable C-style ABI; the definition of a function declared in C doesn't have to be in C!
But in a C++-style templated function, the caller needs access to the definition to do template substitution. If you change the definition, you need to recompile calling code i.e. ABI breakage.
If you don't recompile calling code and link with other libraries that are using the new definition, you'll violate the one-definition rule (ODR).
This is bad because duplicate template functions are pruned at link-time for size reasons. So it's a mystery as to what definition you'll get. Your code will break in mysterious ways.
This means the C++ committee can never change the implementation of a standardized templated class or function. The only time they did was a minor optimization to std::string in 2011 and it was such a catastrophe they never did it again.
That is why Rust will not support stable ABIs for any of its features relying on generic types. It is impossible to keep the ABI stable and optimize an implementation.
There nothing faster and more efficient than building C programs. I also not sure what is dangerous in having libraries. C++ is quite different though.
The same problems exist.
C++ mitigates that issue with its mangling (which checks the type name is the same), Rust goes the extra mile and puts a hash of the whole definition of the arguments in the symbol name.
C has the most unsafe solution (no mitigation at all).
In C, it is UB when the types are not compatible, which is more robust. In practice it also easy to avoid with the same solution as in C++, i.e. there is a single header which declares the object. But even if not, tooling can check consistency across TU it is just not required by the ISO standard (which Rust does not have, so the comparison makes no sense). In practice, with GCC a LTO build detects inconsistencies.
Things being built piecemeal also likely won't be using LTO (even if fat LTO allows this, no static library packages in a distro are built with it).
The standard was initially meant to standardize existing practice. There is no good existing practice. Very large institutions depending heavily on C++ systematically fail to manage the build properly despite large amounts of third party licenses and dedicated build teams.
With AI, how you build and integrate together fragmented code bases is even more important, but someone has yet to design a real industry-wide solution.
I'm doing a migration of a large codebase from local builds to remote execution and I constantly have bugs with mystery shared library dependencies implicitly pulled from the environment.
This is extremely tricky because if you run an executable without its shared library, you get "file not found" with no explanation. Even AI doesn't understand this error.
You can also very easily harden this if you somehow don't want to capture libraries from outside certain paths.
You can even build the compiler in such a way that every binary it produces has a built-in RPATH if you want to force certain locations.
I can only infer that your lack of familiarity was what made it take so long.
Rebuilding GCC with specs does take forever, and building GCC is in general quite painful, but you could also use patchelf to modify the binary after the fact (which is what a lot of build systems do).
Pretty much.
Trying to convert an existing build that doesn't explicitly declare object dependencies is painful. Rust does it properly by default.
For example, I'm discovering our clang toolchain has a transitive dependency on a gcc toolchain.
In general though, a clang install will still depend on libstdc++, libgcc, GCC crtbegin.o and binutils (at least on Linux), which is typically why it will refer to a specific GCC install even after being built.
There are of course ways to use clang without any GCC runtime, but that's more involved and non-standard (unless you're on Mac).
And there is also the libc dependency (and all sysroot aspects in general) and while that is usually considered completely separate from GCC, the filesystem location and how it is found is often tied to how GCC is configured.
(And "absolute" or other adjectives don't qualify "correctness"... it simply is or isn't.)
And Mesons awesome dependency handling:
https://mesonbuild.com/Dependencies.html
https://mesonbuild.com/Using-the-WrapDB.html#using-the-wrapd...
https://nibblestew.blogspot.com/2026/02/c-and-c-dependencies...
I suffered with Java from Any, Maven and Gradle (the oldest is the the best). After reading about GNU Autotools I was wondering why the C/C++ folks still suffer? Right at that time Meson appeared and I skipped the suffering.
* No XML
* Simple to read and understand
* Simple to manage dependencies
* Simple to use options
> I’m still surprised how people ignore Meson. Please test it :)
I did just that a few years ago and found it rather inconvenient and inflexible, so I went back to ignoring it. But YMMV I suppose.
> After reading about GNU Autotools
Consider Kitware's CMake.
In C++ you don't get lockfiles, you don't get automatic dependency install, you don't get local dependencies, there's no package registry, no version support, no dependency-wide feature flags (this is an incoherent mess in Meson), no notion of workspaces, etc.
Compared to Cargo, Meson isn't even in the same galaxy. And even compared to CMake, Meson is yet another incompatible incremental "improvement" that offers basically nothing other than cute syntax (which in an era when AI writes all of your build system anyway, doesn't even matter). I'd much rather just pick CMake and move on.
In the interest of pedantry, locating source files relative to the crate root is a language-level Rust feature, not something specific to Cargo. You can pass any single Rust source file directly to rustc (bypassing Cargo altogether) and it will treat it as a crate root and locate additional files as needed based on the normal lookup rules.
That being said, I'd argue that the fact that this happens so transparently that people don't really need to know this to use Cargo correctly is somewhat the point I was making. Compared to something like cmake, the amount of effort to use it is at least an order of magnitude lower.
The standard module in Rust is basically a Rust source file (<module_name>.rs) with the name of the module or a directory <module_name> with a mod.rs file inside (<module_name>/mod.rs). However, that alone doesn't make it a module. The root source file (lib.rs or main.rs) must declare that <module_name>.rs is actually a module in the preamble via mod <module_name>;
Thus it works "backwards" in comparison to C style #include. mod doesn't include a module into the current file/module, it includes the module into the current project directory tree, which means you will never need a second mod <module_name>.rs declaration again.
You might argue that all of these are solvable problems, but I'd argue that learning how to properly declare a module in Rust is overall a lot simpler than learning how to deal with all of the analogous problems in C/C++. For people who have never used C/C++ or Rust before, you could just as easily say that they work backwards in comparison to Rust, and in a vaccuum, I think the way Rust does it would be far more intuitive to someone who had familiarity with neither and were presented both at the same time.
As a thought experiment: if you had a group of people who didn't know either Rust or C/C++, and you split them in half, and taught half of them Rust first and C second and did the reverse for the other half, how many of the people in each group would you expect to consider the configuration of Rust builds to be more confusing than the configuration of C builds? I'd be willing to bet that you'd have a far more people in the group that you taught C first who considered Rust builds to be more intuitive than people in the other group who thought that C builds were more intuitive, and that it would be strong evidence that the build system for Rust is overall much easier to understand.
For most crates, yes. But you might be surprised how many crates have a build.rs that is doing more complex stuff under the hood (generating code, setting environment variables, calling a C compiler, make or some other build system, etc). It just also almost always works flawlessly (and the script itself has a standardised name), so you don't notice most of the time.
It's the same with compilers, there's not one single implementation which is the compiler, and the ecosystem of compilers makes things more interesting.
There should be a happy path for the majority of C++ use cases so that I can make a package, publish it and consume other people's packages. Anyone who wants to leave that happy path can do so freely at their own risk.
The important thing is to get one system blessed as The C++ Package Format by the standard to avoid xkcd 927 issues.
There's no current effort to standardize what a package registry is or how build frontends and backends communicate (a la PEP 517/518), though its a constant topic of discussion.
You cannot cargo add Unreal, LLVM, GCC, CUDA,...
The fact that building C++ is this opaque process defined in 15 different ways via make, autoconf, automake, cmake, ninja, with 50 other toolchains is something that continues to create a barrier to entry.
I still remember the horrors of trying to compile c++ in 2004 on windows without anything besides borland...
Standardizing the build system and toolchain needs to happen. It's a hard problem that needs to be solved.
I agree, and I also think it’s never happening. It requires agreeing on so many things that are subjective and likely change behaviour. C++ couldn’t even manage to get module names to be required to match the file name. That was for a new feature that would have allowed us to figure out esports without actually opening the file…
What'll spur adoption is cmake adopting Clang's two-step compilation model that increases performance.
At that point every project will migrate overnight for the huge build time impact since it'll avoid redundant preprocessing. Right now, the loss of parallelism ruins adoption too much.
IMO, the modules standard should have aimed to only support headers with no inline code (including no templates). That would be a severe limitation, but at least maybe it might have solved the problem posed by protobuf soup (AFAIK the original motivation for modules) and had a chance of being a real thing.
yes you have CPM, vcpkg and conan, but those are not really standard and there is friction involved in getting it work.
Once big companies like Google started pulling out of the committee, they lost their connection to reality and now they're standardizing things that either can't be implemented or no one wants as specced.
Neither of those things require modules as currently defined.
Only the idea is crazy. What Conan does is much more sensible: give s layer independent of the build system (and a way to consume packages and if you want some predefined "profiles" such as debug, etc), leave it half-open for extensions and let existing tools talk with that communication protocol.
That is much more realistic and you have way more chances of having a full ecosystem to consume.
Also, noone needs to port full build system or move from oerfectly working build systems.
> That is not even half realistic.
uv is an existence proof that when you make something that doesn’t suck ass the entire industry will very very rapidly converge.
Claude makes converting any particular configuration from one system to another very very very tractable.
Ah, and the two compiler major frameworks that all those C++ wannabe replacements use as their backend.
Personally I use them in new projects using XMake and it just works.
There's not a compatible format between different compilers, or even different versions of the same compiler, or even the same versions of the same compiler with different flags.
This seems immediately to create too many permutations of builds for them to be distributable artifacts as we'd use them in other languages. More like a glorified object file cache. So what problem does it even solve?
Modules solve the problems of text substitution (headers) as interface description. It's why we call the importable module units "interface units". The goals were to fix all the problems with headers (macro leakage, uncontrolled export semantics, Static Initialization Order Fiasco, etc) and improve build performance.
They succeeded at this rather wonderfully as a design. Implementation proved more difficult but we're almost there.
They have effectively zero use outside of hobby projects. I don’t know that any open source C++ library I have ever interacted with even pretends that modules exist.
Meanwhile C++ build system is an abomination. Header files should be unnecessary.