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Comment by epolanski | Hacker News Reader

It's insane the power and influence Israelis have.

In the US it's blatant, from the insane amounts of money and weaponry sent to Israel (why are american taxpayers subsidizing Israel exactly? It's not like they are neither poor nor US owes them) to the recent events in the middle east.

But even in Europe. Here in Italy the coalition government has multiple high profile politicians that just happen to be shareholders or CEOs of security companies owned by Israelis. And just so it happens that the same security and communication companies get lots of work by the Italian government. And when journalists brought this up because they didn't report it to neither the government nor parliament, nothing happened anyway.

It's a scandal really, but if you write or say it, you're labeled as anti semitic, so criticizing and surfacing this terrible stuff is always controversial.

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As a Jewish American, I don't think it's antisemitic. We really shouldn't be sending any money or weapons to Israel or joining them in any wars.

What I do think is a bit antisemitic is the suggestion that Israel is somehow unique here. Russia, China, and the U.S. are all doing this. Heck we just captured Maduro and killed leader of Iran. I just think a country like Russia is way more effective and subtle when it comes to election manipulation, especially in Eastern Europe.

So, if I don't follow your what-about-ism, Im a racist? Thats what you are saying there; We all know that the US, china, Russia, and 99% of the countries in the world are doing this. Why is it racist to pick on the COUNTRY of Israel, which right now is trying its hardest to wipe out entire countries? We know Russia is doing that right now in Ukraine, but that does not eliminate what Israel is doing.

We see hate everywhere to China and Russia every time in way higher levels than to Israel. Is that racist, too? Russia is also embargoed for doing the same things Israel does. Why isn't Israel embargoed? Antisemitism, too?

The US sadly just do the fuck they want, but I think they get a lot of criticism here in Europe at least. The only thing in what Israel is unique about is that it seems there are no consequences for their actions.

Actually - it's not Israeli influence. It's pro-Israel influence. Important difference. This includes lobby organisations funded or founded by wealthy Jews, conservative Christian lobbyists, pro-arms trade interests, and geopolitical interests (essentially Israel acts as a US military proxy they can use to keep the middle east in check). Not quite Israel secretly pulling strings (which is quite rightly dismissed as traditional boring anti-semetic conspiracy theory wearing a different hat), more of an alignment of interests, which dictator Netenyahu is currently taking advantage of to pursue his own career agenda (complete destruction of Iran and security of Israel from the mindset of a paranoid Israeli nationalist). Naturally, this involves attempting to buy out journalists and promote propaganda - and the Israeli attempts to do this are usually rather inept. What's far more effective is the already existing domestic pro-Israel lobby groups that have a completely above board, and vastly more effective way of funding Israel (and the vastly more powerful US military-financial-geopolitical interests).

Agree with your post. As a Jewish American, I have been advocating that it would be better for Americans and even Jews if we stop sending money to Israel and put political pressure on Israel to abandon illegal settlements, end the war on Gaza and work towards a resolution of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

Unfortunately, this POV doesn't seem to be widely held by many woth influence.

Illegal settlements are mostly pushed by radical jews from US. Israel does not really have money and people resources, for this endless war.

Do you have any sources for this? I know a lot of Jews in the U.S. support Israel, but not sure why they would care about settlements if they don't live there.

And if what you say is true, why is Netanyahu still in power?

That said I don't think your point undermines my suggestion that the U.S. should get out of the business of funding Israel and joining it in any wars over there.

A 2 state solution is still wildly unpopular amongst Palestinians (both in the West Bank and Gaza), and since 10/7, is now a minority opinion (although still the plurality) amongst Israelis[1].

They also did try as recently as 2009, not that you'd have heard about it[2].

Also, the aid money the USA sends to Israel doesn't disappear into nothing any more than NASA's funding does. American aid to Israel (and to most places in the world) hinges on the condition that they only use that money to buy from American companies.

[1]: https://www.pcpsr.org/

[2]: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articl...

NASA is exploring space, our money to Israel encourages US participation in genocide, apartheid, ethnic cleansing and global war. I'm in the US and support a single state solution: Palestine. I think most people under the age of 45 are in agreement.

"Sovereign is he who decides on the exception" - Carl Schmitt.

Always different rules for Israel vs. any other "normal country", and that in itself tells you all you need to know

Indeed. Israel is the only country that can get the majority of UN condemnations for merely existing.

The UN is irrelevant, when it comes down to it Israel has had the support of the most powerful country in the world (the US) for the last half century, despite doing basically nothing that's been in US strategic interests.

That's at a cold hearted strategic level, not even mentioning the war crimes, genocide and general moral bankruptcy

Yep, UN sanctions deployed on Israel for invading other countries are much worse that when Russia invaded other countries (sarcasm). UN really tried to set an example here.

That's because its existence is predicated on the ethnic cleansing of indigenous Palestinians. It was literally formed via the Nakba, a brutal crime against humanity and it's been maintained through terrorism and now genocide. What's the point of the UN existing if it doesn't at least condemn these actions?

> why are american taxpayers subsidizing Israel exactly?

The same reason USA is subsidizing half the middle eastern countries - its a strategic location near extremely important transit routes, near important resources, and right between major powers so the region doesn't squarely fall in any major power's sphere of influence and thus up to be influenced.

I dont know why all these conspiracy theories think the usa<->israel relationship is so strange, but dont blink at the relationship usa has with egypt, uae, saudi arabia, bharain, etc.

We primarily fund the other Middle Eastern countries to keep Israel safe. Were it not for Israel, we would just have normal diplomatic relations with them.

I wouldn't go that far. The U.S. and other European powers have a long history of involvement in Middle East politics. Significant parts of the Middle East were once parts of various European empires. Many of them gained their independence only to find there were still a lot of strings and (pipe)lines of exploitation attached.

The U.S. did more than its fair share to glom onto those lines of exploitation and keep them alive at the expense of locals. e.g. Iran is what it is today because of U.S. oil interests. The CIA installed an authoritarian Shah when Iran's (at the time) democratic government started taking control of its own oil industry (American oil companies would have had to start paying taxes). Rule under the Shah was "unpleasant" for Iranians and revolution was the direct response. Hence, theocracy.

Israel is a special case in the Middle East. The zionist movement gained state sponsors and convinced European powers (and the U.S.) to pour money in instead of sucking it out. How they did that is a question that stretches back well into the 19th century. I'd argue that a lot of it was the result of people who had their hearts in the right places. Things just went sideways when it came to Israelis and Palestinians co-existing peacefully. At least some of the idealists of the early zionist movement honestly believed the influx of Jewish people would be a benefit to Arabs already living in Palestine.

> Things just went sideways when it came to Israelis and Palestinians co-existing peacefully. At least some of the idealists of the early zionist movement honestly believed the influx of Jewish people would be a benefit to Arabs already living in Palestine.

Teodore Hertzl (Zionism’s founder) was explicit about the need to ethically cleanse the Palestinians from their land.

Herzl, nor Hertzl. Do you have a citation or resource for this?

(I ask not because it's inconceivable, but because Herzl died almost half a century before Israel declared its independence. Ze'ev Jabotinsky is more consistently identified with revisionist Zionism/territorial maximalism.)

> "We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of the immoveable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back."

https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quot...

Thanks. This demonstrates a world view that I don’t agree with, but it doesn’t really read to me like a justification of ethnic cleansing. The mention of removal is of poor people, and it doesn’t mention Palestine at all.

This is in marked contrast to Jabotinsky, who says these things explicitly[1]:

> Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonialization.

And:

> We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached

This isn’t to somehow excuse Herzl; he’s still an essentially colonial thinker. But from what I can tell he never thought deeply about the political mechanics of Israel/Palestine itself, in part because of European colonial assumptions around a lack of Palestinian connection to the land.

(Or in other words: Jabotinsky’s “innovation” is realizing that the Palestinians are a people with real attachments, not just realtors. It’s from there that he concludes, decades later, that displacement is the only workable strategy. He is, needless to say, also wrong.)

Edit: or another framing is that Herzl was too racist and provincializing in his limited view of Arabs/Palestinians to see where his movement would go.

[1]: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ze%27ev_Jabotinsky

Israel controls no strategic resources, unlike the other allies the USA has in the Middle East.

Your comment completely ignores the long history Israel has of rigging the US elections by funding their pet congressmen.

> Israel controls no strategic resources

Israel is, to use a Pacific-theatre term, our unsinkable aircraft carrier. A better Pakistan.

> long history Israel has of rigging the US elections by funding their pet congressmen

Americans were, until recently, pro Israel. The funding worked because amplifying anti-Israeli sentiments among electeds lost them votes. Now that that balance of perceptions has shifted, the effect has as well. And note that pro-Israel != Israel; lots of America pro-Israeli influence is entirely homegrown.

You can look at the FARA website, Israel barely spends money on lobbying. Hungary spent more last year than Israel did. They simply don't need to.

wtf is this antisemitic bullshit.

Israel isn’t even in the top 10 of countries paying politicians.

Same in Spain with prominent figures of the right. Diaz Ayuso the president of the Madrid autonomic region and a very powerful figure in the right party, has been particularly combative for months to refuse to see a genocide in Gaza, or tried to justify it with nail and teeth. Then her connection with some Israel millionaires was disclosed, and now she is suddenly very quiet about the theme. Not more party invitations, it seems.

To add context and data: Ayuso is a close friend of David Hatchwell Altaras, CEO of Excem technologies (Cibersecurity, telecom and Intelligence).

Hatchwell was one of the biggest donors of Netanyahu campaign, and was in the inner circle of Sheldon Adelson.

He is related also with "Action and Communication on the Middle East" (Acom), the "company accelerator" Zakut (Provider of entrepreneurship and technology consulting services), the investments platform OurCrowd, and several business on real state in Madrid.

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