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Comment by amelius | Hacker News Reader

> He also bought a new wardrobe and replaced his old worn out logo T-shirts and cargo shorts with clothes more appropriate for an adult.

I think the problem many __men__ have with that is that an "appropriate" wardrobe looks more uniform and less individualized, basically boring.

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I don’t think that’s particularly true. There’s a lot you can do with texture, colours and silhouettes, even within items that are “the same”. I do think most men are pretty unimaginative when it comes to dressing themselves though, and most can’t even do basic things like getting trousers hemmed to fit them properly.

Never forget the Australian newscaster who wore the same suit for a year and no one noticed/called him out for it. His broadcasting partner, a woman, had been called out for wearing the same outfit previously. There may be subtle variations available to men, but the simple fact is that many fewer people notice or care.

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-30069564

> There may be subtle variations available to men, but the simple fact is that many fewer people notice or care.

I wouldn’t say that’s the takeaway, even with a simple navy suit you have a lot of options.

What that article does do though is highlight just how low the bar is for men to dress.

The key point in his change was that he started looking like someone who cared enough to put some minimal effort into dressing himself.

It’s not about being uniform or bland. He went from old worn-out clothes he didn’t care about to wearing clothes that were appropriate for a business casual environment or a casual date. When you start dressing like you care, regardless of how unique and individualized, others notice.

It goes a little deeper than "does not care" though: worn out can also be a symptom of caring a lot. Caring in the way of having a strong desire to identify with the stuff worn, and newly bought stuff just not checking that box. Then any newly procured garb, no matter how carefully selected, perhaps even customized, will feel like being dressed up as someone else. It's like a trap, just not being wired for new clothes. I wonder if there's a connection to childhood dress-up play, as in kids who had good times masquerading as some archetype are less likely later in life to fall into that "that's-not-me" trap regarding new clothes.

I wonder how clean the clothes looked, however. Clothes can be well worn but still appear clean and taken care of. There is a difference between "this is my favorite shirt" and "these are my grubbies I use while cleaning the house".

It's caring about the wrong thing if you're looking to improve your life though. You need to logically reason through norms and expectations and realize you gotta put on the correct costume for the setting, even if you don't identify with it.

Otherwise "Thats not me" will be describing things like "successful career" and "romantic relationships".

I think many men look at clothes like the wrapping paper of a gift. They absolutely don't care what a gift comes wrapped in, it's the content that matters. Choosing wrapping paper or even thinking about it is boring as hell.

So they then project themselves onto women, and are then surprised that expectations are different.

They think they believe that but are probably simultaneously attracted to women in part because of how they dress and style themselves.

A man still strongly emotionally attached to faded, worn out logos from many years ago is probably not an appealing signal to most women looking for a man to date.

Part of what you signal with your wardrobe isn’t just that you care for yourself. You’re signaling to others that you care about how you appear to them. We can’t expect other people to ignore that signal because showing that you care about how other people see you is a proxy signal for caring about other people.

I was going to comment something similar to this. To an extent, dressing and grooming well is a sign of respect you show to other people as well as to yourself. If you can't clear that relatively low bar, don't be surprised when people aren't super excited about what you might add to their lives.

> If you can't clear that relatively low bar, don't be surprised when people aren't super excited about what you might add to their lives.

You mean like that guy giving keynote presentations in a turtleneck and jeans?

Yes, Jobs is kind of an exception to my general point, but I think it's a bad idea to live your life assuming you can be the exception.

I'm also not talking about having a great fashion sense though, and it's okay to prefer a more casual look. Just pay a little attention to how you dress and care for yourself.

Jobs looked put together.

> showing that you care about how other people see you is a proxy signal for caring about other people

How so?

> showing that you care about how other people see you is a proxy signal for caring about other people.

It's a very bad proxy for that—its somewhere between uncorrelated and anti-correlated to thing it is taken as a signal for (at least, if “caring about” is meant as having a positive concern for the feelings of rather than a desire to manipulate to extract value)—though (which makes caring about that signal itself a kind of signal.)

I wish the people who thought that was true would give me money instead of buying a suit.

By the way, in academia dressing like a salesman is often considered a no-no.

For many years in large corporations, pretty much the only acceptable dress was white shirt, tie, dark suit, and dress shoes. We were still wearing something like that at. trade shows into the 1990s before things started loosening up.

(Mildly funny story. One big, probably Unix, show the IBM staff showed in logoed polos and suddenly everyone else is like If IBM doesn’t need suits we sure don’t.)

I started dressing nice at work, reasoning that looking sharp would buy me a few seconds or minutes of grace to allow my social deficiencies to catch up - just in case an executive decided to ask me a question.

Of course, that never happened for months, years until the one day I went in wearing cargo pants and a gothy synth band shirt and was greeted by a delegation of executives from out of town engaging everyone in small talk…

I worked for a downtown firm for a while which loosened up dress code a little bit so I didn’t always wear my jacket in—though cargo pants and rock T would definitely have led to an HR meeting. One day I had to borrow a jacket from someone when I had to go to a nearby studio for a TV interview:-)

Men's fashion is a little boring, but there's a lot you can play with in terms of fabric and accessories within it anyway. Men's wear blogs are kinda interesting

And you can usually tell the difference between a tailored suit and something ill-fitting.

I find that buttoned shirts only work if your belly is flat, so you can wear it in your pants.

With even a tiny bit of belly fat, ime it is better to just wear a t-shirt and not wear it in your pants.

Wear braces under your suit, and shirt garters. The combination keeps your pants and shirt exactly where you want them.

Thanks. It looks uncomfortable though and it seriously makes me wonder if there isn't a better way of keeping a shirt in place.

Shirt garters aren’t uncomfortable. I wear them with suits all the time. The other way to do it is to never lift your arms over your head or bend over at all.

I don't think this is true, but you won't be able to just grab a shirt off the rack and rock it. Look at Penn Jillette when he was larger, as an example. He was always dressed to the nines. He also strategically incorporated vests into his wardrobe too.

Depending on your shape, a simple undershirt might be slimming enough, or adding shirt stays or shirt garters might help. Worst case you will have to get it tailored. A tshirt is obviously cheaper and easier though, but that signals something.

When I was a fair bit heavier though very active, off the rack shirts didn’t really fit me very well. Tall upper body and very broad shoulders from sports didn’t help. These days I seem much closer to just being able to buy stuff. Bought a new blazer last year and it didn’t need any tailoring which never used to be the case. And shirts work well enough.

Tailors can make a button down shirt that will fit your body. You will look fat, but you can look much nicer. It will cost you though.

While I can kind of see what you are aiming at, a basic button down and clean pants go a long way. Keep it ironed and clean, and you go even further. No need for the anything that looks like a uniform.

I tried going for just a button down and clean pants and was stopped by the police.

Can you elaborate?

PC said logo T-shirt and cargo shorts because they are so un-individual that they have become cliche.

I guess it all depends on the type of women you're trying to attract. I'm married and have kids, so old worn out logo t-shirts and cargo shorts sound nice and comfortable to me, in most everyday situations. I'll dress appropriate for the circumstance.

Isn't that the point of "appropriateness"? To define what allows one to be boring and disappear into the wallpaper for those who prefer to live that way.

Those who want to stand out will define what is appropriate for themselves.

Only if your idea of personality is expressed through a logo tshirt.

Only if your idea of personality is expressed through a textured fabric

Well yes.

Both of those choices express a lot.

And most women are going to prefer that over the worn out logo Ts.

I mean if you want to go beyond that and have a more distinctive look go for it!

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