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Comment by cthalupa | Hacker News Reader

Interesting. Some of these are big deals (particularly the ones mentioned as important) but others I have seen Japanese people in Tokyo do quite consistently. Soroebashi - not on the table, but I've seen chopsticks aligned by pushing them against the plate hundreds of time. I've also seen them used to stir miso soup, etc. plenty.

Others I don't know that I would have much of an inclination to do and haven't seen but am not sure if it's because it really is a faux pas or just because no one else really tends to do it either.

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I think if you were to do an Osaka version of this, the list would be limited to maybe 4 of these (licking, chopsticks upright in rice, passing between chopsticks, and pointing esp. toward a senior would be taboo).

Whereas when I had a date with a girl from Kyoto, one of the first things that happened when we went to eat was she had to stop me from picking up my chopsticks impolitely and show me the proper way of doing it.

Suffice it to say my Osaka-learned table manners and speech patterns meant there was no second date.

It's always wild to me when I hear about how different the culture is between Osaka and Kyoto when they're so close.

I remember being blown away when I was in a Kyoto Familymart after a few months of living in Osaka after they handed me my fried chicken very delicately with both hands like it was a business card!

I guess that’s the cultural divide that occurs when one community is fishing and trading while the other does, like, competitive perfumed calligraphy or whatever.

competitive perfumed calligraphic etiquette -- of your grandfathers!

Clearly they also cook and serve fried chicken.

Similar in Spain between Andalusia doing trades since forever across the whole Mediterranean Sea vs the inner provinces (the Castille-s) and the chilly Atlantic North regions with Celtic/Basque substrates.

I've had people living in the East of Durgerdam explain to me that people from the West of Durgerdam were a bit weird. For context:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/1026+CD+Durgerdam/@52.3790...

I'm not sure I'd put it down entirely to Osaka versus Kyoto. My impression is that these things often have at least as much to do with upbringing, formality, and social background as with region.

I don't know where you're from, so apologies if this is an unfair assumption, but in countries like the US or Australia people often seem less attuned to social class, whereas in places like the UK, France, and indeed Japan, those distinctions can carry more weight, even if they almost always go unspoken.

Agreed. Was always taught to never put elbows on the table, but as an adult I see people do it everywhere.

Yeah, as if we still have loose table tops, like in medieval times.

Seeing people fail to meet a standard does not mean that the standard does not exist.

When it comes to manners, I'd say seeing enough people fail to meet a standard means it's not a standard, at least.

No, that's argumentum ad populum.

Mind you, I'm not saying that standards must be followed. I am just saying the same thing I tell my kids:

- the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them

- the reason rules and standards came to existence might or might not be applicable to our current context, but some people will expect you to follow them regardless.

- If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence)

- You are free to not comply to some rules, but always be ready to accept the consequences of your decisions.

- What your friends are doing or not doing is not reason enough for you to change your behavior or choices.

But the populus sets the standards. If people decide not to follow a particular one anymore, it stops being the standard.

You and I are using different meanings for standard.

then it’s a custom or etiquette, not a standard

And the point of etiquette is to signal conformity and social status.

I had a friend who came from a working class culture where social aspiration was measured by tiny nuances, like whether someone put milk in their tea before or after pouring it.

Outside of that culture these nuances were irrelevant. Middle and upper class people had a completely different set of etiquette markers - as well as more or less obvious displays of wealth - which the working class aspirers were oblivious to.

So? Doesn’t make it a universal standard. Just an invented shibboleth for a group.

> the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them

If people act like a standard doesn't exist, then the standard actually doesn't exist, because that's the only thing that defines a standard.

Most people in the US use imperial unit, it doesn't mean metric doesn't exist.

Standards are not absolutes.

> the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them

But not observing them does. There are standards no one in the world follows anymore. They may still “be there”, but are only used for mocking purposes.

> If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence)

The corollary to that is that anyone who rebukes anyone else for not following a standard must be able to explain why it exists. “Because it’s rude” it’s not good enough, explain why it’s considered rude.

I don't see anything in your responses that even remotely contradict or relate to what I said.

Are you just looking for an argument here?

It seems like you are making a different point than the other posters. If the majority of a group does not follow an etiquette standard, it is reasonable to say that the group does not hold that standard. Your point that if any group holds an etiquette standard, then that standard exists is true, but is more tangential to the other point that a rebuttal of it.

> Your point that if any group holds an etiquette standard...

Not quite. My original comment was in response to "I see people violating rule X anywhere, even though I was told it was 'wrong'".

All I am saying is one shouldn't be basing their behavior solely on what they see others "getting away with".

That might be true for things like laws, but manners and customs are not strictly enforced by any central authority, at least these days, but rather by how culture/generation changes. It is possible that if nobody follows the same etiquette anymore, it means it is outdated and no longer exists. That is the entire point of progress.

At one point in time, it was considered bad etiquette to interact with people of color, but over time, society changed for the better. That etiquette literally doesn't exist anymore. That doesn't mean people are "getting away with" not following a "rule" these days. But rather customs/morals/etiquette are transitory and prone to changes, and one must understand what is and what isn't actual etiquette instead of just following all outdated "rules".

That's also fundamentally different from something like a law, where the ethical thing to do is that you should still follow it even if others are "getting away" with it.

What is this, abuse?

This is just great way to put it and explain.

"Appeals to public opinion are valid in situations where consensus is the determining factor for the validity of a statement, such as linguistic usage and definitions of words."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

I think the deeper question is whose standards and why should we consider them the standard?

That's the thing with standards: there are so many of them to choose from.

You don't have to follow them, but you do you should be ready to accept the consequences of your choice.

There are lots of standards, but some contradict one-another.

In the area I grew up in, caring too much about useless aesthetic stuff like “elbows on the table” would have a social cost.

Some of them of course are invented whole cloth. British Received Pronunciation was invented and needs to be learned and is the standard of the upper class. It's neither right nor wrong but it's there to differentiate.

You say “needs to be learned” but that’s no more so than any other accent.

We just grow up with it because it’s how our parents and the parents of our friends speak.

If you want to change your accent you can, of course, get elocution lessons but most Brits do not. We just have a large variety of accents of which RP is one.

Not sure why this is controversial. RP is just an accent like any other now.

I didn’t have lessons for it and I don’t know anyone else that did. It’s just how we speak.

"Received Pronunciation was invented"

How so?

It's not the natural evolution of a regional dialect coming to prominence but rather the conscious consensus of a geographically distributed social stratum.

Interestingly, the sociolinguistic literature shows that such a consensus is strongest among an aspirationally upward-mobile social group rather than the already social elite. In other words: The aspirational middle class make a big effort to speak how they think the upper class speak in hopes of joining them one day.

RP isn't really a thing any more, except among some of the older aristocracy and Tories and a few legacy BBC Radio shows.

Most people have settled into Estuary, which has split into a high/corporate/media Estuary-tinged dialect, and low street Estuary. The BBC has its own special neutral version.

Fifty years ago the difference between upper class/BBC/RP and street English was almost hilariously obvious. Watch a BBC show from the 50s and 60s - even something like Dr Who - and everyone is speaking a unique RP dialect that doesn't exist any more.

Idk. I’m in my early 40s, not a Tory, not aristocracy, and I speak with RP, as do many others I know. Maybe a product of schooling, but I wouldn’t say it’s dead.

In media, you’re quite correct - it has become rare bar presenters who are now in their 80s or older.

Maybe some of them may have had a purpose. With this one, if you were used to putting your elbows on the table and there were more people around, you just took up too much space and made it unpleasant for others around you.

In general, upper-classish dining probably used to be more formal in the US in terms of cutlery type and placement and other things. May still be in some circles but no one I know worries about such things and even very decent restaurants don’t. And when was the last time you saw a fish fork?

My mother-in-law always used to get annoyed at me for using my knife and fork in the European manor instead of the American way. She said it was boorish. I don't know anybody else here in the US who cares in the least which way you use your knife and fork, so I always interpreted it left over behavior from her upper class DC upbringing in the 1930-40's.

(I did try to explain to her that it was more related to my being left handed than my attempting to emulate European behavior. It didn't seem to make much difference to her.)

By American way do you mean cutting the food then transferring the fork to your right hand for eating? Or is there some other distinction?

Just guessing here, I'm left handed also. I don't trust myself to cut a piece of steak using the knife in my right hand. So, after cutting with my left hand, I put the knife down and use my left for forking.

Or, it could be what my English son-in-law does, he uses his fork and knife, in different hands to aid in pushing food onto his fork. (He's right handed, not that it matters in this case.)

That and you hold them in your fists or like a pen, rather than the European manner of holding cutlery.

Lee Van Clyf eating in good bad and ugly. Really underlines the savageness of the wild west.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ctrOZIJni8Q

This explains the difference. The European method seems the most optimal.

I thought this would simply be about the knife and the fork switching hands, but holding the fork tines up or down (spearing vs scooping) is new to me.

On the other hand, I don't think Americans ever pick up food with their fork and switch the loaded fork to the other hand, especially if the food is scooped, not speared. A lot of food would be dropped in the process.

As a non-conformist, I taught myself to use my knife in the non-dominant hand so that the fork is used in the same hand regardless of knife usage.

I typically just forgo the knife and cut food with the side of the fork. Unless it's a particularly thick slab of meat, it works just fine.

Pretty much. I do the same thing with a spoon.

This is bonkers. Just cut the food with your non-dominant hand. If you're so weak that you cannot cut the food with your non-dominant hand then you're either a small child, elderly, or you have a medical condition.

It's just awkward, I've held the knife with my dominant hand all my life.

Nonsense. If you can cut with your non dominant hand, then you can also spear and scoop with it.

Spear and scoop requires dexterity, hence the use of the dominant hand. Cutting is an extremely simple task with no special requirements.

Nonsense

Do you always get fish served deboned? Cutting it with non-dominant hand sucks, especially more bony ones like trout. For me doing almost anything with my non dominant part sucks, my left hand is 20x less useful.

Fish are gross and smell gross. I don't get them served at all.

So you probably only "cut" Chicken McNuggets and shit like that. Why use a knife at all? Just cut it with the fork sideways.

You obviously haven’t done it both ways and are assuming that spearing requires more dexterity than cutting. Hilarious that you could just try it for yourself and figure out that knife in the dominant hand works well but choose instead to bore everyone with your ignorance and stunning closemindedness

You are getting reported but you should be given a medal —or token if you are an AI or otherwise lack the anatomy for it.

To save you a click, the answer is: yes.

> no one I know worries about such things

It went underground - those who know just note that you're nekulturny, and move on.

They don't bother telling you about it, nowadays nothing good would come of that.

I live in Osaka (only lived here a year) and it is fascinating the vibe change between Osaka and Kyoto.

I wonder what Ms. Kyoto would tell me to do to properly pick up my chopsticks, given that I’m left-handed, and yet it is apparently a faux pas to lay down the chopsticks pointing to the right.

I’m thinking this would be interesting inspiration for a song by the band Pulp.

Jarvis Cocker-san.

It's probably a faux pas to be left handed

Do you know how serious "chopsticks upright in rice" is? I had a Chinese teacher who mentioned the taboo (with regard to China, not Japan), but she also said that while people recognize that it's something you're not supposed to do, it's not taken seriously either.

I do. My parents (americans) lived between HK and Taiwan for a decade before I was born, and growing up, I was fortunate enough to have my folks teach me a bit of chinese. We'd regularly go to a local Chinese restaurant where the staff would speak to me in Chinese so I could practice speaking. Seeing as some of the staff were significantly older, my dad taught me to be hyper aware of customs surrounding dining norms and etiquette. One day I accidentally left my chopsticks in the rice bowl while there was still rice in it, and the waitress (an older Chinese lady) saw it - poor lady nearly fainted.

I did not make that mistake ever again.

For context - it's a way of saying "death to your family" or something akin to that.

> I do.

I don't think an elderly person who lives in a different country is actually a good guide to modern practice.

Also, I was asking about Japan. I believed my Chinese teacher (in China).

> For context - it's a way of saying "death to your family" or something akin to that.

Nothing so specific. It is felt to resemble something you'd see at a funeral.

Could be the Japanese version of getting a friend to "save them from the date" by calling to pretend it is an emergency.

I would say you dodged a bullet.

I dated many foreign girls and it was always fun to discover the cultural differences.

There are similar faux-pas in France but, really, nobody with an ounce of common sense cares. You like your red wine cold as I do? Someone will maybe mention that you will be loosing some aroma znd that's all. You add sugar and ice? This is probably not a drink for you and you will get some laughs but that's all.

I eat my starters after the main meal in the company restaurant, nobody cares.

You are there to have pleasure, this is not West Point

> You add sugar and ice?

One of my favorite alcoholic drinks is port + ice, which it sounds like the only difference here would be that wine + sugar + ice would be much weaker in terms of alcohol content.

> You like your red wine cold as I do?

Fun fact: "chambrer le vin" i.e getting (usually red) wine from storage temperature to "room temperature" comes from a time where said room temperature was well below 20 degC (more like 13-15 degC), not the comfortable 20+ degC that people like to enjoy these days.

Thanks for the reminder about our traditions. Now, I like to drink it straight from the fridge, i.e. about 6°C :)

Heh, whatever works.

A sommelier friend of mine says that the best way to taste wine is the one you enjoy; if you want to have a glass of chilled powerful Haut-Médoc with some delicate fish, have at it.

There's equally complex dining and utensils etiquette in Western culture but it's largely omitted (or even unknown) on daily basis.

There is a wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_utensil_etiquette

Edit: The wiki on chopsticks has an etiquette section broken down by country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopsticks#Chopstick_customs,_...

  The difference between the American and European styles has been used as plot point in fictional works, including the 1946 film O.S.S. and the 2014 series Turn: Washington's Spies.[5] In both works, using the wrong fork etiquette threatens to expose undercover agents.

Nuts. Apparently I have been a German spy all this time. I don't have time to waste swapping a fork around.

Tarantino has a bit about it in inglorious bastards.

The tell was not related to the cutlery, but counting on the fingers.

American zigzagging utensil acrobatics always seemed like a lot of nonsense to me. It looks bad and fiddly.

You may "enjoy" this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1VRIEg2Xsw

I’m not even sure what the technical etiquite is. As a right handed American it just seems more natural to have my knife in my right hand but if I’m just using a fork I tend to switch that to my right hand. Didn’t even think about it until right now.

I've always just done the cutting at the beginning of the meal then set the knife to the side. All of the etiquette patterns I've heard about seem wrong to me compared to just cut first and then put the knife down.

I was taught that’s old American from before knives were cheap. Originally you’d pass the knife.

Strange that the wiki implies you set the knife down after each cut.

Some people do that but it’s probably not the norm in general.

But can you pronounce 'Scheveningen'?

I'll see your Scheveningen and raise you an angstschreeuwtje.

Oh, good one! I had never heard of it but yes, that would work.

"Nuts" is the correct expression to indicate that you are not a German spy as it is a very perplexing Americanism. Go to Germany and try using "Nüsse" as an interjection! See also: Bastogne.

Fascinating. The difference of the American style where you switch the fork between the left and right hands reminded me of a similar difference in fishing gear - where Americans (to my understanding) mostly cast with their right hand and then switch the rod to their left hand when retrieving, while in Europe (or at least in Italy) you usually just keep the rod in the right hand instead of switching.

Its always extremely funny reading wikipedia articles about a countries customs. For the UK:

>Bread is always served and can be placed on the table cloth itself

This is extremely rare, to the point where I can't remember the last time I saw it. Is bread really.. always served?

> In the United Kingdom, the fork tines face upward while sitting on the table.

Tines down isn't uncommon in the UK either

>if a knife is not needed – such as when eating pasta – the fork can be held in the right hand

I mean it can be, but its fairly uncommon

>it is permissible to place a small piece of bread at the end of the fork for dipping

Its also 100% fine to dip bread in a sauce with your fingers. Putting bread on a fork if you've licked the fork and then dipping the bread would cause everyone to hate you, so *don't do this*

I suspect people who are motivated enough to contribute to the Wikipedia article are a bit over-interested in memorizing social rules.

> >if a knife is not needed – such as when eating pasta – the fork can be held in the right hand

> I mean it can be, but its fairly uncommon

So the norm is that if you're eating one-handed, you use your non-dominant hand? That seems really counterintuitive to me; is it because you're so used to having the fork in the non-dominant hand that it feels awkward the other way? Which hand do you use when eating with a spoon?

Spoons always go in the right hand (eg fork and spoon), but yes I'd say people usually use the fork in the non dominant hand. Fork in the right hand is slightly 'uncouth', possibly due to its american associations

> Is bread really.. always served?

At any kind of formal dining? Yes, absolutely, I would expect there to be a bread roll & a pat of butter served at the beginning of the meal. Both in restaurants & formal dinners in my experience.

It's not an absolute rule though & you generally wouldn't expect bread to be served like this at home in the UK. I think the French are more likely to serve bread at home as well.

I’m right handed, but eat with the fork in my right hand and knife in the left.

Is the issue that people have difficulty cutting with their left hand? Because if you can the process of eating is pretty efficient: hold with fork, cut with knife, move food on fork to mouth …

I'm in Europe and I did the same as a child because it just felt the most natural. But you better believe our teachers in school would try to force the opposite. The argument was that imagine if everyone cuts with their right hand, but then you cut with your left and cause a lot of annoyance by bumping your elbow info your table neighbor's elbow.

Absolutely a non-issue in reality obviously. But nowadays I do hold my cutlery "properly" as a result. To me it now feels natural to bring the fork to my mouth with the left hand. Or the right one, really, but I default to holding it in the left.

Ahh! Yeah, my teachers were equally unimpressed - but none of them gave the argument you mentioned, which could at least be understood (like elbows on tables).

Yes! Hardly anyone knows it all, and even people who know the basics adjust their behavior based on the situation. Eating out with your high school buddies requires a different level of observance than the dinner at which your girlfriend is introducing you to her parents.

That's not really a coherent statement.

If people don't even know it, it's not part of the culture.

Who are the “people” that you are referring to?

This makes total sense to me. There is no monolithic “culture”— there are multiple related cultures, differing little in essence but differing greatly in the details. And each individual is usually only partially ignorant anyway.

Culture changes, too, and asymmetrically. So the “done thing” may be done be very few anymore.

I guess I was talking about the people that don't know about the culture you guys say they are part of.

For some reason, you're reading things into the original statement that are not there. "An etiquette exists in a culture" does not mean everyone has to follow or even be aware of it.

I would say I'm accurately reading "Western culture" as a nonsensical concept.

Add an s and it gets a little better.

If mentally adding an "s" to the original comment enables you move past this issue and actually consider the comment as it was intended, then I would say that is well done and worth the effort to get to this point. :) Have a great Sunday!

Please don't do passive aggression here :(

Yeah, I see the problem. It's not a good way to convey what I was trying to say. Thanks for calling it out.

consider the comment as it was intended

What do you think "reading" means?

I feel like there was a brief period when middle class came to existence and started mimicking customs of the upper class, which were very complicated because the upper class was mostly bored and had invented this shit to kill the time. Then two things happened:

1. Upper class stopped being formal because formality stopped being a signal of upper class.

2. Middle class stopped having social gatherings in general.

So, like, "it is a part of the culture" in the same sense as traditional outfits are a part of the culture - most people have very vague awareness, nobody really cares.

> invented this shit to kill the time

This is unnecessarily flippant, trivializing, and reductive.

The upper classes had the time and position to refine manners. I think one mistake people make is to think manners are arbitrary nonsense. But manners, when fitting, honor the self and others with conduct that suits the dignity of the human person and functions as a sign of that dignity. You cannot tell me that a man hunched over a table cramming food down his throat gaping at a television is no different than one who eats according to the above custom of etiquette.

I’m not one for stiff artifice especially when slavishly applied, but I don’t think manners as such are arbitrary. That nobody cares would explain why so many people look like slobs and behave like boors.

If we begin with human nature and then view the virtues as perfections that actualize the fullness of that nature, then it becomes clearer that some behavior is more fitting and honored better by certain practices.

> when fitting

This phrase is doing a lot of heavy lifting, because what one considers basic etiquette another considers a theatre. The end result is often that people gather in order to perform the spectacle of manners rather than use manners to facilitate a social gathering.

One of the true markers of being upper class is that you can get away with literal atrocities (see Epstein and co) as long as you're discrete enough and/or polished enough when talking to underlings and wannabes.

The upper classes in the UK regularly practice tone policing, where legitimate dissent is waved away as uncouth, even though what they say and do is far worse in private, and sometimes in public.

If you're looking for human dignity, I don't think this is its natural home.

Exactly. The Royal formerly known as Prince Andrew for sure knew how to use his fork properly.

> You cannot tell me that a man hunched over a table cramming food down his throat gaping at a television is no different than one who eats according to the above custom of etiquette.

Cramming is the only real problem there because it implies not experiencing the food. Seating position does not actually affect dignity or honor, and "gaping at a tv" can be worse or better than the alternative depending on the purpose and mood of the gathering.

And the rules applied to utensils in particular are a waste of thought.

Is is also topic od relevance.

Poland has honorifics that are probably on par to those in Japan, but since the language is difficult to learn and frankly speaking nobody cares about Poland, barely anyone even knows this.

Also lots of corporations prefer "american style" approach of just refering by name (even to the CEO), so this dissapears.

Probably could write few pages about this, but nobody would care to read.

I wonder what will become of our honorifics in upcoming decades. Our language changes so much under influence of English, imported sociopolitical trends that surely made some of our bards spin in their graves.

On a side note, I find interesting is that Czech language still naturally uses that plural form we abandon due to popularity of pan/pani forms.

I'm interested in learning more about this! As a Finn I love Poland and have been there multiple times (most recently just two weeks ago). I don't know the language, but details like honorifics reveal interesting tidbits of the culture and society. I guess I should prompt an LLM about it.

>> Poland has honorifics that are probably on par to those in Japan

> I'm interested in learning more about this!

It's very simple, actually.

For strangers, you use the third person and the title « Pan » or « Pani » (Sir or Lady). You avoid pronouns, « The Lady has forgotten the Lady's purse on the table ».

For friends, you use the t-form ("ty", thou), and use a diminutive rather than the full name. « Johny, you've forgotten your bag on the table ».

For work colleagues, you traditionally use « Pan » or « Pani » with the full form of the first name. « Mister John, the mister's bag is on the table ». This is perceived as old-fashioned, and is increasingly being replaced by the t-form.

The v-form has fallen into disuse, as it was promoted by the Communist regime.

(The old-fashioned honorifics still exist, but they are only used in administrative correspondence: the only time when you're "the respectable gentleman" is when you need to pay taxes.)

Calling someone Sir or Madam also exists in English and is nothing special.

You left out most of the interesting things.

For example the vocative case is partially dissapearing. Someone from Finland can actually understand this topic, since Finnish has multiple cases - more than in Polish language (meanwhile English has one case and if we try very hard we can squeeze something similar to a case - so let's say it has two).

> You left out most of the interesting things. For example the vocative case is partially dissapearing.

The grammar is changing in many ways (for example, the inanimate masculine is being replaced with the animated, kroić kotleta), but this was about honorifics.

In English you can use 'sir' as an insult, which is quite creative.

It's possible in Polish to use "pan" in vocative "panie" form with strong vocal emphasis not followed by name or last name, to give it more rude sounding - but it won't be an insult.

Yes, true, I've heard that, it's like putting emphasis on the fact that you want someone to pay attention or something like that. A bit like the guy saying 'Sir!' in the Blues Brothers restaurant scene but not quite the same.

There's nothing more humiliating than a Warsaw taxi driver who looks at you as you try to work out how to operate the door handle and says "Panie!" with a left-bank accent.

As hilariously portrayed in the indie game "Oh...Sir!! The Insult Simulator".

> English has one case and if we try very hard we can squeeze something similar to a case - so let's say it has two

This isn't a correct way to describe English grammar. You can either say it has no cases or four cases with no inflections (because it definitely has subjects, objects, indirect objects, and possessives).

Presumably your native language doesn't inflect in the nominative or something like that and your English teacher once gave you your statement as a convenience fact, but the vast majority of native English speakers have never heard of grammatical case (ones who have, have typically studied inflected foreign languages). In Linguistics, it might be used to describe English and other uninflected languages (it depends).

Who / Whom

+ Who/ Whose

Are two examples of something that could be considered possesive case. Although those are more words that describe possession than the possesive case.

Still good example of words changing.

If you are a Fin in Poland and a lot into nerd stuff, in Polish language some words are spelled with letters "h" and some with "ch" - where both have the same pronouciation now, but supposedly 150 years ago there was a difference.

Supposedly in Finish language you retained this difference and it can be heard in some words e.g. "raha" ("money" in Finish?).

Personally I never "heard" it - sounded as a regular "h" sound for me.

While historically Polish honorifics are one of the most elaborate in Europe because of its noble culture, I wouldn’t say they are as elaborate as the Japanese, at least not in the same manner.

I use to have a routine with a friend where we paid close attention to the table manners of his wealthy upper class relatives. Then when they did something wrong we would point it out loudly as if it was the end of the world. Best was 3+ mistakes in a row. Bonus points if you can point out the mistake and add something like we are not in Belgium!

I assume this is one of those cases where if you're in the culture, you'll know which rules you're allowed to break (and when) vs if you're on the outside it's easiest to just follow all the rules all the time.

Reminds me of an episode on youtube of How The British Upper Class Live | Stacey Dooley Sleeps Over where the presenter eats her eggs "wrong", much to the dismay of her posh host who tells her (in his subtle British way) that she should "sort that out".

it's like western etiquette: upper class, fine dining traditional practices are not what you'll see everyday even among polite society. the spectrum of behaviors will also depend on one's company.

I assume this must be the case here because I'm familiar with a lot of different etiquette contexts in the US and I have the impression that Japan has far more of that sort of thing than we do. Off the top of my head there are (at minimum) the way we were expected to eat in front of my grandparents, a more "regular" dinner with the extended family, a small gathering at a tex mex joint or chain restaurant or whatever, a fast food joint, and whatever slovenly things I do while sitting on my couch in private.

Anyone from a particularly wealthy family can probably add an additional couple contexts on the high end. Every single one of those situations has slightly different "rules" for what's acceptable.

And then there’s my favorite, the southern seafood boil etiquette.

We have a lot of dining etiquette too if you look into it. But it’s mostly forgotten and irrelevant high class behavior.

Yep. Two words:

_grape scissors_

Look here, Bridgerton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNegQyn-4N8

I've seen those too. I was going to say that I've seen people put the bowl to their mouth and shovel food in with chopsticks, but now that I come to think about it that might well actually be from the series Tokyo Diner and Takeshi Kitano films, and may be deliberately uncouth characterisations...

Bringing the bowl close to your mouth and picking food up from it is proper. Pushing it from the bowl into your mouth is impolite but common.

I'm under the impression this is a Chinese vs. Japanese difference. Shoveling food into your mouth is perfectly acceptable in Chinese etiquette but discouraged in Japanese. Accordingly the Japanese cook their rice to clump together so it's easier to pick up using your chopsticks so that you don't have to resort to shoveling.

Both do, but the moment any sauce gets on the rice it's impossible to pick up with chopsticks.

A lot of culture was lost in the Cultural Revolution

I thought it was okay to shovel noodles, but have not heard it was okay for rice.

I haven't been specifically informed as to either question, but I find that idea surprising, since noodles are infinitely easier to pick up with chopsticks than rice is.

Maybe it's the "slurp" part that is (surprisingly) okay in Japan.

So what are you expected to do with the last few sauce-soaked grains of rice that would at best be able to be plucked grain by grain from the bowl, and even then would likely slip from between the tips of the chopsticks? Just leave them in the bowl?

I vaguely remember something about not finishing completely to acknowledge there was enough

I've heard that clearing the table of food would be considered rude in China, as it means you didn't get enough to eat, almost exactly opposite to the only food-related rule I was ever taught growing in the US - never waste food or serve yourself more than you can eat. That's probably just a "my family" thing though. I get the impression that even saving leftovers is rare among Americans these days.

Which is funny, because the serving sizes in US restaurants are so big that no human being can be expected to eat it all.

There are still contradictory customs around this enough that it is standard practice to warn exchange students from Europe that if they finish absolutely everything on their plate that this is a signal in many American homes that you should be served more. This can lead to some real discomfort as the student tries to eat everything they are given which leads to being given more and more.

So at the same time it is considered poor taste to take more than you can eat, it is also considered poor form to offer a guest anything less than more than they can eat. This also shows up when people rate restaurants by the serving size.

Use a knife and fork

Channel your inner Mr. Miyagi.

I’m Japanese, but honestly, I don’t pay much attention to it. My parents used to get on me about it when I was a kid, but I still do it sometimes.

Half of this list feels about as important as remembering the order of spoons on a table. Something that probably meant a lot 100 years ago but is mostly forgotten now.

I see lots of people do things that are commonly written off as rude too. I don't know if there is much of a monoculture around what's rude or not, if people don't care (then is it truly rude?), or maybe the writings like this are simply outdated.

I am reminded of the passage in Umberto Eco's _Foucault's Pendulum_ where they reconstruct a particularly wild weekend for a Templar based on the rule of the Templars and the idea that a rule exists because it's something people do.

You also see plenty of americans put their elbows on the table.

The original reasons for not putting your elbows on the table (limited space, as well as some others) just don't apply anymore. There's no reason _not_ to put your elbows on the table other than "that's how it's always been done". As such, at least in my opinion, the rule no longer applies.

sailors eat with their elbows on the table, to keep their fare from sliding as the boat rocks. don't look poor!

That could only work as a reason to avoid the behavior if people were familiar with sailors.

Until you do it on a temporary table and knock over everyone's drinks

Yeah? How are you supposed to line up the sticks? And stir the soup? I think the "Mawashibashi" faux pas is to whip the soup like a madman, or to aimlessly swish it, and the translated listicle doesn't convey that.

You could surreptitiously agitate the soup as you pull out the solid contents.

Line them up by using your hands. It’s simple…

If you must mix soup, there is a spoon, or you simply bring it to your lips and it will mix as you tilt and sip from it.

I mean... I've consistently seen people chewing with their mouth open, talking while chewing, biting their fork, and so many others, just in occidental places, and it didn't seem to bother anyone but me. so, why would it be different in Japan?

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