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OpenSUSE Kalpa

kalpadesktop.org

213 pointsogogmad109 comments

Been running Aeon, the Gnome version of Kalpa, on my personal laptop for about six months now. I came from Tumbleweed so the learning curve wasn't steep. Overall the experience has been good!

The one major issue I had from the start was non-free Bluetooth codecs like AptX. That required me to taint the base image and add a non-official repo. It was messy but that was mostly down to it being a learning process, if I had to do it again I could probably do it with a single run of `transactional-update shell`.

The installer is super minimal and surprisingly user-friendly. One thing I remember is that there was zero partitioning choice: just use the full disk for encrypted btrfs and you get no swap (but zram swap is on by default). If you use OpenSUSE with secure boot enabled (as intended) then hibernate is prevented by `kernel_lockdown` anyway.

Snapper by default is nice, but you also get that with Tumbleweed. I ran into no applications that I couldn't get from Flatpaks or export from a distrobox, the latter being mostly for obscure stuff I need to compile myself. And my main toolbox hosts my Emacs environment that I spend most of my time in besides Firefox.

It's hard to recommend a MicroOS desktop over Tumbleweed, the latter being a great all-purpose distro as it is. But I'm hoping the benefits of forcing this "rootless" paradigm on myself will appear when it's time to move to a new machine. Just copy over my home directory and distroboxes and I'm golden, I could even switch to ARM without hesitation.

The distroboxes help with migrating because if I want to compile a newer version of that obscure program from earlier, I don't have to hunt down all the arcane requirements again. They're all still there waiting for me, in a Fedora/Ubuntu/Arch/whatever distrobox, depending on what works best for that program. At least that's the theory.

Happy to answer questions.

I did some manual partitioning when installing Kalpa: I added a Swap partition whose capacity I set equal to RAM + 2GB, which got hibernate working.

I think Hibernate is strictly better than Sleep: Why should a computer still use power when it isn't doing anything? And if you could get a desktop to recover its state before a full reboot without using Hibernate, then why would you need Sleep anyway?

I thought so too, until i saw what writing ~50GB to disk multiple times daily does to SSD lifetime for no good reason.

Yeah I read further down in the comments that Aeon and Kalpa have actually diverged quite a bit, the installer might be one of those divergences. How are you liking Kalpa?

The main benefit of sleeping to RAM is of course the resume speed, which makes it more suitable for when you just left your computer inactive for 15 minutes. That goes double if you use encryption without TPM unlocking.

For leaving your computer overnight, hibernate wins on all fronts. I'm enthusiastic about sleep-then-hibernate schemes, but haven't gotten them to work on my devices yet.

I am not sure I fully understand the usability trade-offs when it comes to these "atomic" distros. One the one hand, security seems to improve markedly, since the root filesystem is largely immutable. On the other hand, it does seem that a lot of straightforward things become harder. I generally dislike flatpaks and favor a low-level, bare-metal approach to things and atomic distros seem to go against that. Maybe I should just run some experiments in a VM.

The idea is that the immutability of the operating system leads to greater stability. The partition should (in theory) be exactly as the distribution expects on every computer it’s installed to, which limits the potential for user changes breaking anything. The benefit to the user is that it’s a lot harder to shoot yourself in the foot by running the wrong script.

For me, the point is not security, but maintenance. Whenever system upgrades have gone wrong, it's almost always been a partial update, and that just no longer happens.

I've found doing work in containers made things straightforward enough, as a developer. Though I still somewhat think that that's just moving the problem - I'm not quite keeping those containers up-to-date. `distrobox assemble` helps a bit though.

Atomic rollback is kinda big for servers.

If you manage enough diverse servers, then patching will break something critical fairly frequently. Back when I was a sysadmin, Windows updates would break some server every 2 months, and Redhat every 6 months.

Being able to just reboot the server back into a working state, and then fix it at a later time would have been nice.

It's also a big deal for desktops, especially when they're operated by people who ain't experts at troubleshooting software issues. Aeon's my go-to when setting up computers for non-technical folks specifically because I can have it auto-update fearlessly, knowing that the absolute worst case scenario is having to talk someone through booting into a known-good snapshot.

Opensuse already supports booting into a known working snapshot with btrfs and snapper. I am using the same in CachyOS now.

> dislike flatpaks and favor a low-level, bare-metal approach

Flatpaks are sandboxed with bubblewrap[1]. I would still call that bare-metal. And flatpaks aren't particularly bloated either, there's no need for a flatpak to be any bigger than a regular binary if it only depends on the kde/gnome/freedesktop runtime.

I used to prefer installing apps via my distro directly, but I now prefer using flatpaks because of the way it sandboxes the applications. When I delete a flatpak I know for sure any configuration or cache files for that app are also gone (unless you opt to keep them).

If you want to play with atomic distro's, there's a bunch of different approaches out there. For instance GnomeOS is not package based at all. OpenSUSE works via btrfs snapshots, Fedora Atomic uses rpm-ostree currently.

[1]: https://github.com/containers/bubblewrap

I've installed https://getaurora.dev/en/, another atomic Linux distro, for a non technical user and find it really good. I've read arguments that its architecture was better than kalpa, but I don't find it back and I have no sufficient knowledge or experience of both to have an opinion.

For the uninitiated, it’s another UniversalBlue project just like the popular Bazzite. It focuses on a general computing usecase instead of gaming.

This web page doesn't do a good job of motivating the reader.

I understand what the Plasma Desktop Environment is. But what is "atomic and transactional Linux"? What are the advantages to the alternatives? What other projects are similar? What is the motivation for this project in particular? Most importantly, why should I want to use it?

Yes, all projects in this sphere should communicate better.

An atomic distro is one in which the updates are swapped atomically at reboots. They also go by the name of immutable distros. Only the "system" partition is immutable.

Most popular I would say is SteamOS followed by the Fedora variants (Silverblue, Kinoite) and derivatives (Bazzite).

They are still limiting in daily use, rough around some edges.

Yeah. I use bazzite, but had to overlay like 5 apps. Flatpaks are often disappointing or just do not exist. AppImage is awesome, too bad it is used rarely.

Make sure flathub is added instead of using the fedora flatpak source. Big difference.

> what is "atomic and transactional Linux"?

Linux distros that are updated with full system snapshots instead of package by package, similar to Android. The key difference is most of / is mounted read-only[0] and is only changed by distribution provided updates so you and the distro team always know exactly what's running.

> What are the advantages to the alternatives?

Greater control and stability since its essentially always running in a supported configuration. Easy roll-backs to a previous update if something goes wrong. You always know exactly what your system is running if you want to keep it in sync across machines (more useful in a server setting).

> What other projects are similar

Kalpa is a "sibling" project to AeonOS, which is atomic OpenSUSE but with Gnome (and other changes, which I'll get to). There's also the Fedora Atomic line of Fedora Kinoite and Silverblue (KDE and Gnome respectively), U-Blue, Bazzite, SteamOS, and more. I think most major distro lines have an Atomic variant at this point.

> What is the motivation for this project in particular?

For Kalpa specifically, it's to offer a KDE alternative to AeonOS. Originally there was just AeonOS, which was OpenSUSE MicroOS (an atomic version of OpenSUSE Tumbleweed) with GNOME installed. Aeon has diverged greatly from MicroOS though and I think it no longer uses it as an upstream. AeonOS also refused to support KDE[1], so Kalpa was created. Kalpa still uses MicroOS as its upstream and I'm not sure if there's any plans to change that.

> Most importantly, why should I want to use it?

I use it on my personal laptop because it lets me have all the benefits of a rolling distro (up to date packages) without the stability concerns. Updates apply automatically in the background and I know when I reboot I'll always have a working system available to me.

[0] /etc is mounted as an overlay FS so you can still make changes to it. /var, /usr/local, and /srv are also still user-writable. I think /mnt is too but I forget off hand.

[1] Aeon is generally anti-customization and does its best to only offer one way of doing things. This is to prevent configuration drift and reduce the maintenance burden per snapshot. GNOME also has a more regular release cadence, which makes it much easier to integrate than KDE (or so I've been told..)

Is there a relationship with concepts such as NixOS?

It's closer to the "sealed system volume" model that macOS uses. The core OS filesystem isn't (normally) writable, although you can finagle it to add drivers and such.

Would the A/B filesystem approach à la Android be a good way to distribute Linux with ZFS-on-root without all the angst from DKMS modules versioning?

[Maybe unrelated, but just occurred to me (some horror stories have prevented me from trying ZFS-on-boot in linux after Ubuntu botched it with their Zsys “adventure”).]

If i understand the intention of a zfs root combined with an a/b approach — it feels like this btrfs root and immutable gives you the same benefits but with better mainline support.

> Would the A/B filesystem approach à la Android be a good way to distribute Linux with ZFS-on-root without all the angst from DKMS modules versioning?

This is exactly what Valve's Steam OS 3 does. (Except it uses Btrfs for the two root partitions, not ZFS.)

It's buried in the About page, but it uses different terminology. They definitely have to review their copy.

> Automatic Updates: Updates never touch your running system, only taking effect on reboot.

> Resilient: Due to the atomic nature of updates, if something goes wrong, the system will automatically roll back to the last known good working state

Wait I thought being able to update without rebooting was a good thing? It was a relatively common argument against windows

Wait until Linux can run itself from the top while keeping your work intact.

See https://lwn.net/Articles/1033364/

That depend on your needs.. linux can do live update if you need that, usefull on servers..

But atomic versions as more target to desktops or containers where you need to have know working setup and when you upgrade you replace it by newer one..

So you dont update per se... You install the new version in a separated partition and boot into it the next time you restart.. Same with containers, you just destroy it and recreate with the new version..

If the new version fail you boot back to the old original version that is know to be working and have not being replaced..

The ideia is to ensure a known to be working system is always available..

It's never been a great argument. Even non-atomic Linux distros have you reboot after updates. It's just the safest way to ensure that everything is running with the updated packages. You're kind of in an untested state if you have mixed versions of applications and their dependencies running.

Plus, updates aren't the only thing that require reboots. Various config changes will need a reboot or at least require you to log out and back in. Even just adding your user to a group needs you to end your session for the change to apply.

User group can be updated within a terminal when needed.

    exec su -l $USER

This works with fish, not sure if bash.

Isn't the point of Linux kernel live patching (kexec, ksplice) to reduce the need for rebooting after kernel updates? There's certainly a user base that still aims to maximize system uptime.

Yes it is, but that's for servers. This is a desktop OS.

> Even non-atomic Linux distros have you reboot after updates.

It depends. Some of them have smart enough tooling to let you know if an update requires a reboot.

>But what is "atomic and transactional Linux"?

It's a glorified Live CD, with added "persistence" for user data. Updates are done by replacing the system install (which is readonly during normal operation, just like a Live CD) and rebooting, with an A+B mechanism enabling seamless updates during operation, as well as rollback if the new install fails. It's the modern "cattle not pets" approach to system administration: every system is running a well-defined ("atomic") Live CD equivalent, not something bespoke that's the unpredictable result of partial updates and/or edits on the running system.

No, updates are done by creating a snapshot of the read only mounted root, and applying the packages via the usual package manager in there. The snapshot only becomes active at reboot, and if starting fails it'll revert automatically back to the last known working snapshot for the next boot.

Things like /etc are writeable, so you don't need to reboot for simple configuration changes.

You can run it just like always with all packages installed - it's just not recommended as the additional complexity on updates increases the risk that manual intervention is needed, and tooling is good enough that for a lot of stuff you don't really need it there. Like, toolbox or distrobox as podman based containers running in the host namespace (either as user or root), allowing persistent installation of debug tools, without having to reboot.

Really well explained - I use fedora kinoite, and have had hard time grasping how the immutability exactly works when compared to traditional setup.

I would add to this that homebrew is a nice tool for being able to install software that are not in flatpaks and if you do not want to add too many layers to the "os-tree".

The fact that home is shared between all the distro- and toolboxes is a bit annoying, because I would like to have stronger isolation from the host in some projects.

Also doing basic polyglot stuff is a bit messy, if you have toolboxes like "node" and "php". But if you have project based boxes, then you end up with billion copies of node.

But what a pleasure it is to just update the base image and have things work, or rollback if something fails. Hell, you can even rebase the base image to some other setup, and most likely have your system work.

Distrobox takes a home parameter if you don't want to share it.

> The fact that home is shared between all the distro- and toolboxes is a bit annoying, because I would like to have stronger isolation from the host in some projects.

You can limit the access of distrobox, but it's a bit annoying, as they didn't think about isolation when designing it. Personally I'm not doing much with distrobox - I've been using LXC for ages to run some applications (like browsers) somewhat isolated, with only specific directories shared between home and the container.

Few years ago I started switching some of them to podman as that makes it easier to pre-build and share containers between systems, with a custom wrapper script to mount in resources as needed (directories, wayland socket, pulse/pipewiresocket, ...) - with my approach the opposite of distrobox: allow nothing per default, and specify resources that should be available.

So when I switched to immutable systems I had everything ready already to not have to rely on either system packages or flatpack and distrobox too much.

Overall I'm very please with the progress there - suse microos is pretty much everything we were hoping to achieve with our phone OS back at Jolla 15 years ago, but for most of the things were just not ready. We did use btrfs with snapshots to allow roll back for updates, though we didn't do a full read only root - and ran into issues with btrfs just not being stable enough at that point.

This is what I don't get. You're supposed to use flatpaks and distrobox and docker none of which are easier or better than just using the package manager. And if you do use the package manager you have to reboot for the most trivial thing. And this is the future. Maybe for an appliance but for a desktop?

Install Fedora Silverblue, or any subedition if you don't like Gnome. The one for Cosmic it's being polished and looks good. You basically use 'toolbox enter' for developing with Docker, Python with pip with venvs and the like and Flatpak (and Flatpak SDK's) to install the desktop software.

If you don't like Fedora's Flatpak repos you can disable these and reinstall all the software installed from FLathub, there are instructions to do so online and again once you do that you pretty much finished your desktop needs.

RPM's are just used as overlays in an emergency (maybe you need virtualization support, but you just install the libvirt services/tools once and you'll never touch rpm-ostree again). Ormaybe to try Waydroid. Again, use rpm-ostree once and forget.

Your maintenance? Upgrade the system with 'rpm-ostree upgrade' and 'flatk upate'.

This is the future, and well, Guix wants to do the same but with Guix and Guile for everything, and IMHO it's a good step over Unix. AIX with SMIT was not-so-Unix, ditto with Solaris with SMF and the like. If Unix itself diverged a lot from v7 with BSD sockets and ioctls, who cares about classical Unix.

The true Unix philosophy lies from late 90's in Plan9/9front, the C creators stated that Unix was already dead and 'rotten'. 9front does Unix better than UnixTM itself. No VT's, true 'everything it's a file everywhere' - hello 9p-, namespaces, rio being much unix-like than the X11 nightmare. No BSD crazyness to create a socket, no ioctls.

If something better gets created with FedoraOS, GNU Guix with Shepherd (plus Hurd too; non-root filesystem mounting and the like looks very liberating for the user), that good for us, the thinkerers. You get really easy rollbacks (9front too, per file, with GeFS), less tirany from package managers (flatpak can set updated desktop software with a stable kernel and with Guix everything it's pinnable, reproducible and whatnot; and from 9front, everything it's statically compiled, so you build something once, backup that file, restore it, done), and so on.

Is there a linux distribution that comes with mac keybindings and make it easy for someone with muscle memory to use both?

There's https://kinto.sh/ you can install on any distro. For visual similarity, GNOME is already quite Mac-ish, but there are distros like elementaryOS that go further by e.g. moving window controls to the left side.

I daily drive kalpa and also installed it on my family computer. I landed on kalpa after a long time researching, so, let me dump an overview of this new distro tech.

# Terminology

1. Immutable: The core OS (/usr directory) is kept in "pristine" condition by disallowing modifications.

  - Discourage installing packages or removing packages.
 
  - well-tested (as most users are running the same OS with same package version)

  - System upgrades are an entirely new immutable copy

2. Atomic/Transactional: Similar to atomicity in databases, where a bunch of operations are bundled into a transaction (atomic =indivisible unit), and it either succeeds completely or it fails completely. Just like that, a system upgrade succeeds or it doesn't. There's no partial package updates.

NOTE: kalpa in particular, uses suse-microos tech called Transactional-Update https://documentation.suse.com/sles/15-SP7/html/SLES-all/cha...

# Atomic styles

4 mainstream models of immutable distros:

1. declarative-config: ALL your system configuration in a config file eg: package versions, network config, user accounts and so on. eg: NixOS, BlendOS

2. OSTree-based: You use cloud/container (OCI) technology (eg: docker files) to layer upon existing layers (eg: pre-baked system images). eg: fedora's atomic spins, vanillaOS, endlessOS. So, fedora coreOS is the base layer -> atomic spins like silverblue/kinoite layer desktop packages like gnome/kde etc.. -> the infamous gaming distro "bazzite" layers gaming packages like wine/steam/drivers etc. and so on.

3. Btrfs-snapshot-based: You take a btrfs snapshot of your root partition before upgrading, so that you can boot into it if the upgrade fails. eg: suse-microos family (kalpa belongs here), chimeraOS

4. systemd-mkosi based: You essentially "curate" an entire OS filesystem in a directory using mkosi and deploy it as an immutable disk image. eg: kdelinux

NOTE: systemd-mkosi is the vision of systemd maintainers as mentioned here: https://0pointer.net/blog/fitting-everything-together.html . There's a whole bunch of system features in development to achieve this ideal.

Most of these distros (except btrfs-based) simply use the A/B root system. They just maintain two root partitions/images, put any upgrade into the "other" partition, mark that as live and the current partition as backup. If the boot into the new partition fails, they just boot into the backup partition and just wait for next upgrade.

As they don't allow usage of system package manager, you are supposed do package management at user level. For gui apps, you resort to flatpak. For other utilities, you usually pick homebrew or language-specific tools like cargo, pip/npm etc..

# The magical tool called Distrobox

This runs containers in userspace and tries to integrate them into your system as much as possible.

A lot of software development requires system level services or shell access or install dependencies etc.. You obviously can't do that on host, as system package management is essentially forbidden and half the point of immutable distros is to keep the host "clean".

So, you create a container and do all your development in there. If it gets too dirty, you just delete it and create a new one.

Personally, I use an arch container for development, as it has all the bleeding edge packages and the convenient AUR too. vscode (from flatpak) supports connecting to containers using official remote extension. I also run a media server inside it. You can also install any system packages or cmdline utilities you want inside it (eg: codecs, ollama, etc..).

# Why kalpa over others?

- Great KDE polish that suse is known for

- btrfs tech is mature and was already used in suse for years, the atomic system is very simple to understand and you can just pick the snapshot you want at boot menu.

- Despite being immutable, customizing the system (eg: installing a driver, kernel modules, firewalls etc. ) is easy too.

  - just enter a transactional update shell

  - this creates a new mutable snapshot of the current system and chroots into it

  - run all the commands you want inside the shell. eg: install/remove packages, enable services etc.

  - exit shell. This will mark the transaction as success/complete and set the snapshot as live for next boot.

- Minimal by default.

- Updates are fast/tiny, as they are just routine rolling release updates from tumbleweed repos.

There are some problems too:

- single maintainer

- less popular, compared to alternatives like fedora-based atomic spins.

- It's based on tumbleweed, so, you get lots of tiny updates (almost daily). Fedora based, for example, have weekly/bi-weekly updates.

- still in alpha stage (but once you set it up, it's rock solid).

- Immutability is still a new concept, and flatpaks are rough around the edges. Expect bugs. Mutable/traditional distros are still easier to use, as that has been "the way" forever.

> Most of these distros (except btrfs-based) simply use the A/B root system.

No, not "most".

ChromeOS does it (and does not use Btrfs).

Valve SteamOS 3 does it, and it needed to specifically patch Btrfs to do so.

That is all I can think of.

I was really surprised they didn't even bother to have screenshots. Screenshots always tempt me to try different distros and desktop environments.

Why? It looks exactly like any other KDE-based distro.

Sure, but screenshots get people hyped to try things out.

Kalpa is great and hits way above its alpha status; I've been running it on my laptop for months now with zero issues. It's been really nice to not have to worry about updates, just gotta reboot it every now and then and most things just work.

Which things do not "just work"?

I can't think of anything that doesn't just work in that it's broken in some way. There are things that are different. I've been using MicroOS with Plasma for at least 4 years now on my personal machine and my work laptop. At some point they changed the name to Kalpa. There were some times in there where things were broken and it needed to roll back and pause automatic updates for a few days, but otherwise it functions just as expected.

A couple of annoyances exist. For example IDEs want to use the system's shell, so you have to make a custom entry to use your distrobox. Tools like python, node, tofu, etc are installed in a distrobox and then exported with `distrobox-export -b $(which $BINARY)` so that you can call them from the IDE.

For me, it's worth those few rough edges. When I install an OS for non-technical people who just need a web browser, I install Kalpa. It looks close enough to Windows to be easy to use, and it's never broken in a way I can't explain over the phone or a text how to fix.

It even passed the wife test in our house. It took a few years of marriage to convince her that her laptop shouldn't take 30 minutes to boot and open Chrome. She let me switch her over to Kalpa (it may have still been called MicroOS Desktop then) a few years back. That old laptop is still kicking and fast enough for her needs. Had she stuck with Windows, it'd be a brick now because of the requirements for upgrading to W10 and 11.

This blog post might provide useful context: https://sfalken.tech/posts/2024-06-08-how-do-aeon-and-kalpa-...

This is a cool idea, but it’s not clear what problem it’s solving. Tumbleweed is already great

I was trying to figure out the change as well - I've only used Tumbleweed through WSL before. Does it provide a desktop environment preinstalled or is it a 'bring-your-own' deal? (if not, that seems to be the big thing that Kalpa brings to the table?)

Tumbleweed comes with desktop environment options. You can select from a few.

I guess you get the atomic system, but with Tumbleweed you get snapshot backups anyway.

One of the main advantages of Tumbleweed is the extensive testing pipeline. I'm not sure how a derivative would be able to offer a similar experience

"I have a minor inconvenience -- I know, I'll create an entirely new distribution where 99.92% is identical to the base"

How else are you going to improve the linux gene pool? Breeding linux distros ain't gonna cut it :)

Being able to roll back updates/upgrades that go wrong, is not just fixing a minor inconvenience. There's also something about the critical part of the system being less mutable. Desktop Linux has been way too easy to break in the past.

Tubleweed has snapshots and rollbacks too by default. But yeah immutable distros are good for beginners so they don't destroy their system!

The OS this is based on, Tumbleweed, is what provides that capability. I do not think there is anything novel here.

> I do not think there is anything novel here.

Absolutely wrong.

Tumbleweed is a conventional distro. You're root, you can do whatever you want, you have full R/W access to the entire FS, and updating is by installing lots and lots of packages into the live OS while it is running.

Aeon and Kalpa are immutable: the root fs is largely R/O even to root, and you cannot install or update packages on the running system. To install packages into the OS itself you must reboot, and installation is transactional -- it can automatically undo changes that prevented a successful boot.

Kalpa is the KDE desktop version of MicroOS.

> and installation is transactional

Good explanation, but note that Tumbleweed can use transactional-update with btrfs snapshots like MicroOS. Updates are still applied live though.

Okay, fair enough!

Kalpa is an immutable distro based on MicroOS with KDE as it's desktop environment.

MicroOS and its derivatives are all based on Tumbleweed. MicroOS was intended to be used for container workloads. Aeon grew out of that with a GNOME desktop, Kalpa a KDE desktop. Because they were focused in a way Tumbleweed is not, they are a more opinionated distro. On the other hand, Tumbleweed is a rolling distro that wants to be all things for everyone.

I wanted to try an Atomic Linux, I think I tried the Fedora flavor, nothing really worked for me for some reason, I gave in to Arch and tried it a la EndeavourOS. Have not looked back since.

You might know this, but unfortunately, if you leave an Arch install unused for enough time, and then run an update, you might not be able to boot into a working desktop.

[EDIT]

Oh, and I had a lot of problems installing Kalpa (from the submission) - all which I got fixed by using ChatGPT.

I've left it for a long time and also run it daily sometimes, still no issues. My understanding is brick level changes usually are fixed quickly.

brick level changes will render the device unusable. You dismiss it like it was no big deal to brick a device.

Eh I misspoke, I don't think you can actually brick anything with this, its just it might not boot properly, you can still format over it, or fix it if you run a LIVE Linux disk to rollback. You also always have an option to run previous system configuration.

The more I think about it, I don't even use Pacman, I just use the other tool that comes with Endeavuor, which is a face to Pacman and probably shields me from doing doofus things. Pacman is easy to screw up an update with.

EOSupdate is basically just a yay and pacman script, as I understand it.

How long is a long time? I left mine for 2 years.

I left an Arch install sitting for a few months and came back and had trouble getting the updates to properly install. Seems the advice around it is basically just don't go that long without updating.

Bollocks. This can happen for any distro or OS. Stick to distro packages and this isn't notably more true for Arch than for most other distros or OSs.

If you build and install packages from AUR, or use dodgy repos like Manjaro, then risk of update woes will increase significantly.

> Bollocks. This can happen for any distro or OS

I've never had this happen with Windows or Mac.

> this isn't notably more true for Arch than for most other distros

Agreed. Welcome to Linux.

I don't have key problems on Debian or Fedora, but I do on Arch, even without AUR packages.

It's possible that you won't anymore if you preceed full upgrades with a `pacman -Sy archlinux-keyring`.

If I have to solve it by applying a manual fix it's still a problem, right?

Also at least up until 2 years ago (I have since stopped using arch) that did not solve it.

This appears to be a "pre-beta" site, so this will be why it is not polished yet. From the documentation page :

"note: These installation instructions will be changing, with the Beta release of Kalpa"

A bit rough around the edges - so probably unfair to publicise too prominently yet.

I've been using Aeon for about 8 months now and while I appreciate the intent and feel its well engineered, in practice I run into all sorts of edge cases where I'm fighting the system to do what I want to do. I'm sticking with it because I do learn interesting things in the process, and sunk cost fallacy, but I find it hard to recommend. I probably am too opinionated on my system to be the best target user though

A screenshot is the bare minimum for such things.

It's an atomic Linux distribution with KDE. A screenshot would look like any other KDE screenshot.

Interesting they are hosting on codeberg. Opensuse has a pretty established hosting/build architecture provided by Suse.

I was going to guess that it may be easier to get new contributors on a general site like Codeberg, but it seems like they're just using Codeberg pages to host the actual website, not using it for the bug tracker or anything like that. Interesting choice indeed.

Codeberg is AMAZING. fast and super simpler. KISS

Just works

Has anyone had a good long term experience with Atomic?

I admittedly only used it on a 13 year old gaming computer and couldn't get the GPU drivers because... you know containers.

This is something trivial with a regular install. (Especially with LLMs to assist)

I want to like Atomic, but it feels like an Apple-like regression in computing.

I have run Fedora Silverblue on my workstation since 2021 at least and I wouldn’t go back to a regular distro ever. I’ll jump ship for an immutable distro not based on RPMs (or APT) which I loathe.

The secret is that all your power is within a distrobox container. All my dev tools, Emacs are in an Arch Linux container.

The difference between this and apple is that at the end of the day it still believes the user should hold the power. With Kalpa, you can persistently modify the operating system using transactional-update, you're just strongly advised to keep that to a minimum.

This rules but the landing page could benefit from a Download Now type button for the iso page.

Are they still managing versions and rollback via BTRFS snapshots?

Yep, using snapper, same as tumbleweed.

i misread the name as "Kapla" and thought it was a reference to the Klingon word "Qapla'"

Kalpa seems to be in eternal alpha, so I gave up and jumped ship to fedora kionite.

Isn't OpenSUSE for sale? At the least distrowatch said this recently.

What do you mean by that? SUSE products are for sale, OpenSUSE products are free.

A private equity firm aptly named EQT bought SuSE from their previous owners in 2018. Now they want to sell it off.

Ofc the distro can be installed for free. Owning the business sets you back some $6 billion.

since flatpacks/snaps/appimages are containerized-ish, i see no point in these immutable distros any more. also, cosmic is where the focus of linux desktop should be, not kde or gnome.

Perhaps another “container,” for the basic system.

What's with the Ventoy hate. Every linux distro can be installed with Ventoy except for SuSe ones

I’ve had trouble installing proxmox with ventoy, I had to install debian and then proxmox as a package. AFAIK there isn’t really an alternative to ventoy?

I like the iODD virtual disc drives, I have an ST400 that has been pretty reliable aside from complaining when the iso files are too "fragmented".

It silently messes with the kernel boot flags which breaks the boot process If you do get it to work it silently adds extra broken repos which make it impossible to install packages.

Why would any distro want to support a tool that intentionally breaks things? Ventoy could just boot ISOs without messing with them and everything would work fine, but the developers insist on injecting garbage.

> If you do get it to work it silently adds extra broken repos which make it impossible to install packages.

This is not true.

I use it extensively and have done for more than 4 years now. It adds nothing at all to the installed OS. It doesn't care about the installed OS: I have successfully installed Linux, FreeBSD, Windows, even FreeDOS from Ventoy.

It comes up regularly in OpenSUSE communities, it silently breaks the installed OS by hooking in to the init process of the ISO and fucking with it for no good reason:

https://forums.opensuse.org/t/update-repos-point-to-weird-lo...

https://www.reddit.com/r/openSUSE/comments/1jgmrs3/opensuse_...

https://www.reddit.com/r/openSUSE/comments/1lno6ka/full_whol...

https://forums.opensuse.org/t/empty-destination-in-uri-hd-de...

https://forums.opensuse.org/t/update-error-empty-destination...

https://forums.opensuse.org/t/packman-and-updating-question/...

https://forums.opensuse.org/t/trying-to-install-a-mail-app-w...

https://forums.opensuse.org/t/zypper-update-stuck-at-some-st...

https://forums.opensuse.org/t/opensuse-leap-issue-with-nvidi...

Need I go on?

You have misunderstood what these reports are saying.

You claimed "Ventoy adds repos". It does not. It is incapable of doing anything of the kind. It does not run on the installed system. It does not modify the boot media in any way. This is demonstrable and verifiable.

When booted from Ventoy, openSUSE apparently adds the installation media as a repository.

This is not some disaster or horrible hack. This is normal behaviour for Debian, for example.

That means that something in the openSUSE installer is misinterpreting boot parameters.

This is a openSUSE bug, not a Ventoy bug.

SUSE, though, has an institutional habit of blaming problems on others, or denying that problems exist. I know this for a fact from my own personal direct experience: I worked at SUSE from 2017 to 2021.

You are misreading bug reports, wrongly deducing things that did not happen, and mis-attributing blame. The fault here is yours, and secondarily SUSE's. It is not Ventoy's.

> You claimed "Ventoy adds repos". It does not. It is incapable of doing anything of the kind. It does not run on the installed system. It does not modify the boot media in any way. This is demonstrable and verifiable.

It literally adds an rdinit to the kernel boot line that hijacks the boot process and messes with it in a shell script. This is demonstrable and verifiable: https://github.com/ventoy/Ventoy/blob/master/IMG/cpio/ventoy...

It adds a parameter to the kernel boot line. That is not adding a repository. It is not doing what you claim it does.

I am not putting any pressure on you. If you don't want to use it, then don't.

I find it hugely useful, have been using it for about 10 years now on dozens of machines and hundreds of distros and OSes, and it's saved me not just hours but days and weeks of work, effort, and time wasted writing files to USB keys.

All I am asking you to do is not tell lies about it.

Fine, the repository gets added because ventoy hijacks the boot process and messes with it, it does not directly add it. The problem is still the same and it would still be a problem even if it didn't break anything: It should not be hijacking the boot process, there's absolutely no good reason for it.

You really shouldn't trust ventoy.

SuSE doesn't ship ventoy and the installer does boot and work just fine. It's likely a bug in ventoy. SuSE doesn't test that and why would they?

Perhaps ventoy doesn't like SuSE.

there were some pretty deep shenanigans in ventoy not too long ago.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44810281

This was pretty wild too: https://github.com/ventoy/PXE/issues/106 that's where they installed a self-signed EV cert in the trust store.

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