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Comment by fennecbutt | Hacker News Reader

Eh, tbh I've given up. Can't point out the terrible things that the IDF are up to without being labelled an apologist, or terrorist supporter, or just getting a massively negative reaction.

Now I'm not one to fall prey to the conspiracy theories around Judaism...but like...is it not possible to say that both hamas and the IDF do terrible things? And that innocent civilians are caught in between, with the usual bad faith reasons of "they were hiding hamas members" aka the exact same rhetoric that Russia used when accused of something terrible that they obviously did, deflection and formal outrage.

The very fact I feel I have to tread so carefully with my comment is an indication that something is seriously, seriously wrong. I don't live in China, I don't live in Russia. But when speaking about Israel or the IDF, I feel like I do.

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> is it not possible to say that both hamas and the IDF do terrible things?

I agree. Hamas and IDF do terrible things - the ICC issued warrants for the leaders of both. This is why an external party has to impose a solution and it should involve in my opinion separation (two-states.) Both parties are radicalized at least for now and need to be separated and allowed to manage their own affairs while allowing the other to exist.

I feel something very similar. I have strong views that what Israel is doing is wrong. But I look around at our politics (in the UK), and there is such a well oiled Israeli PR operation that is very happy making career ending accusations that talking publicly about this is actually quite dangerous (Not helped by the loonies who are, and have always been disgusting anti-semites). And you look at our politician's stance on it - and the career of people like Lord Walney, and it's clear we're in a very dangerous place. I think there is a very wide gap between what the average British person actually believes about Israel and what is happening to the Palestinians, and the acceptable positions you can express in Westminster. I also fear that once the dam breaks, and it's no longer the case, that the swing back against Israel is going to be quick harsh, and that's difficult because I have friends and family in Israel - I would like to see Israel be a free and open liberal democracy that shares what used to be western values, but maybe we're too late for that.

Also to note UK is on massive rise in anti muslim sentiment in recent years. That also a major contribution

If you feel the need to temper your speech to avoid offending people you are using the wrong moral compass.

There are plenty of good reasons to speak carefully, thoughtfully and compassionately, but avoiding criticism is not a good reason.

I'm not avoiding criticism, I'm avoiding very real legal repercussions by treading so lightly. Lest I get caught in the crossfire.

That’s really unfortunate. What country are you in that there are legal repercussions? Understand if you don’t want to divulge that information.

The UK. But any Western country you run the risk of being labelled antisemitic for any and all criticism involving Israel.

Now what's interesting about the Holocaust, is that gay prisoners were present in the concentration camps too. And those gay men were attacked, abused and sometimes even raped by the other prisoners. Even the Jews being persecuted at the time engaged in wholesale persecution of gays. And then those camps were finally liberated, the gays were free too right? Nope, sent em right back to prison, zero lessons learnt. They excluded us from raparations, from being recognised as victims of the Holocaust. Fucking disgusting.

So when people bring up the Holocaust in relation to antisemitism it falls upon my deaf ears as a gay man.

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