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Comment by Aurornis | Hacker News Reader

> A short while ago, someone on Reddit pointed out that something on Google Maps was wrong and so I went and submitted a fix and told them how to and I received a barrage of comments about working for free for a corporation that's making money off me.

Did you respond by asking them how Reddit makes money?

The anti-corporate mentality isn't new, but it does surface in different ways and communities over time. The Reddit hivemind leans very anti-corporate, albeit with a huge blind spot for corporations they actually like (Reddit itself, their chosen phone brand, the corporations that produce the shows they watch).

The Reddit style rebellion is largely symbolic, with a lot of shaming and snark, but it usually stops when it would require people to alter their own behavior. That's why you got dog-piled for doing something productive on a site where user-generated content is the money maker.

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Hell, reddit hates on reddit all the time. Spez in particular is hated across the board.

Agree that they largely don't change behavior. Although I will say, I've not logged into my account since the API shenanigans and don't regularly visit the site anymore. I'm mostly just on here and fark.

Most left leaning forums look negatively on profit motive, and reddit is largely very left wing. Whatever that means nowadays. It's reasonable to be wary of incentives, but sometimes that zeal is misplaced.

Having said that, I don't think any site can go mainstream and maintain a semblance of quality discourse. If nothing else, it will become botted and infiltrated by shills. But even without that, normies will ruin it much earlier than any sophisticated attacks are necessary.

Avoiding every corporation that does stuff you disagree with just isn't feasible. All we can do is weigh their business model and other practices with the value we get out of it. People on Reddit who also have a problem with Reddit are obviously on Reddit. That is tautological. It doesn't mean they aren't avoiding other companies for similar reasons, which wouldn't make them a hypocrite either.

> Avoiding every corporation that does stuff you disagree with just isn't feasible.

That would be all of them. They are all dirty.

The idea of 'voting with your dollar' is ridiculous - they are all terrible, so there's nothing to vote for. But yes, modern life requires that we engage with their nonsense, no need to think of the interaction as anything more that begrudging extraction.

At least all publicly traded companies are 100% completely psychopathic. It's just what they are. Their objective to create shareholder value just trumps everything else.

With private companies you have whatever morals the owners have. It's a very mixed bag.

I don’t know. I’m more wary of a company that makes its money from advertising than one that profits on the goods it sells me.

Do you think any corporate isn't extracting data from you? Put techno companies to one side (as if not all companies are not actually tech nowadays) - what about pharmaceuticals, cars? All extractive as well as selling a product. Supermarkets? Financial companies? If you think there are companies not observing the data as well as selling the product, I don't think you're paying attention.

>Do you think any corporate isn't extracting data from you?

I think they are extracting and sharing data to varying degrees and that some have a business model which pushes them to one end of the spectrum.

If you take the example of supermarkets you used nearly all of them push loyalty cards which they use as a mechanism to manipulate your purchasing decisions but the one I frequent doesn't (Aldi UK).

They clearly aren't all the same.

Even in the example you use of a friendlier corporate, you have no idea what is being monitored. You only know there are no loyalty cards. You don't know if they are tracking consumers through the shop, over visits, etc. They do do that. They're not making a profit to do right by everyone.

No ethical consumption under capitalism

So what is the implied call to action there? What's actually the solution?

You asking me? The solution is a workers revolution and a restructuring of the economy around worker-owned coops.

The rest of this site might disagree though.

Yeah thanks for answering, im also in the camp of understanding the truths underpinning the steel man argument behind the original phrase but not seeing a widespread clear path towards a better future with the proposed solution. What's the solution for class conflict? The meat packing workers coop wouldn't be as favorable to work in as the elementary school teacher worker coop nor as the carpenter worker coop. How do you handle technological innovation? How would you defend against other nations attempting to invade and steal your stuff? Would the weapons worker coop take the hospital builders materials to produce weapons?

I really dont think it nets a higher standard of living and will introduce millions of deaths. Not sure how thats more ethical

> What's the solution for class conflict?

The solution is to dismantle the class system altogether.

> The meat packing workers coop wouldn't be as favorable to work in as the elementary school teacher worker coop nor as the carpenter worker coop.

This is giving us a chance at a true meritocracy. You can test into any of the more favorable coops as long as you have the skills.

> How do you handle technological innovation?

I don't see how that would be any different?

> How would you defend against other nations attempting to invade and steal your stuff?

This is premised on a world revolution. No other nations.

> Would the weapons worker coop take the hospital builders materials to produce weapons?

I'm not sure there's much overlap between those two.

Thanks for the reply.

I dont see a mechanism for dismantling the class system at the global level. What information do you have in your mind where you can see a path where the entire class system is dismantled? I am imagining 100 human clones in the jungle where one happens to be closer to a large stick, the person picks up the stick. Now you have a class system. The stick bearers and the non stick bearers. Its as intrinsic to human systems as set theory is. You'll never get rid of it. Unless there is a class of nonclasssystem enforcers that can tear down anyone who tries any funny business. How do you prevent abuse? Brain lobotomies? AI nanobots in the bloodstreams?

Theres not enough time and energy for everyone to have an equal chance of testing in every coop with equal playing fields.

How are you going to have a world revolution without massive genocides given how real politics works?

Both require steel, labor and intelligence to say the least.

Also geography itself will create classes of people. Those that populate among the shorelines and those that populate in the landlocked regions.

How will any of it actually work fairly and enforced without having more of the same bs we have in current power structures. (Oligarchs/autocracies with a working class that can threaten revolts occasionally)

How does that prevent anything? You'll still have the exact same issue. Unless you think a google employee would be the same class as a small mom and pop employee just because they both own a share of their workplace.

The defining feature of class dynamics is ownership of the means of production vs labor participation.

If everybody owns the means of production and everyone participates in the labor force, class distinctions disappear.

If you look at it through a lens of a specific theory that may be true. But that theory does not apply nor translate to reality. Everyone already owns captial its called a 401k or investment fund. There is still class. If that was taken 1 step further and everyone owned a part of their workplace there would still be class. Being forced to own your workplace reduces mobility and traps people. Shutting down a coal plant would just cause 1000 layoffs it would financially destroy 1000 people. Its a stupid idea that only children still believe in.

> Everyone already owns captial [...]

That's a wild statement.

Italy has a lot of employee-owned business. Apparently it works well for them.

Haha, that's funny. I didn't think of it at the time and I was more surprised than anything.

By the way, I have had your comments highlighted for a while now and I've never regretted it. Good stuff.

... There's a highlighting feature?

I just have a Chrome extension. It's not a HN-native feature. Link in profile if you're curious.

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