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Comment by ectospheno | Hacker News Reader

Once I verify a home video product works as intended I remove its network connection and never connect it again. I then leave its static ip address configured and block any traffic from it on the off chance it’s ever connected again.

The sole exception is my PlayStation 5. I use apps on it for all streaming.

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I also had to take this approach with my LG TV. The OS actually had its use for a while but Apple TV has become my driver. I no longer wish to consent to LG’s EULAs which are starting to look like the legal corpus of a small nation. I’m also not interested in their software updates. Internet privileges: revoked.

It’s concerning nonetheless as others are pointing out that in the current trajectory the TVs may soon refuse to display any content unless connected.

It's simple: not buying them is the way. There is enough competition to just buy a screen that will not do that.

There is not a ton of competition in the OLED TV space

Who cares? Companies are using your need to have the latest and greatest against you. It's overt manipulation. I'd rather watch an old CRT or nothing at all than allow some company to forcefully show me ads.

> Companies are using your need to have the latest and greatest against you

This is a false dichotomy.

My love of cinema drives me to have certain features in my TV: 4k, OLED, HDR. My hatred of ads drives to me buy certain products to use my with TV: Apple TV.

fewer competitors every year...Sony gave up as well :/

It's ridiculous that going to a Target/Bestbuy/etc you cannot find any non-smart TVs generally. I have had several older models of non-smart tvs that suddenly stop working after a few years. It's disgusting

It's either because the non-ad-driven tvs cost more, resulting in too few sales to sustain (because no lifetime revenue from data sales) or the lifetime revenue from data sales is so profitable that companies take the risk on being undercut by a market entrant that will sell dumb tvs.

My guess is that the vast majority of people will trade data for a cheaper price point every time (my wife is certainly one of these people), so the market just can't support the volume of sales necessary to make the price point of dumb tvs competitive.

A smart TV just means one that can show you advertising and hoover up personal data. This is additional revenue. What company would sell you anything else?

You don't really get a lot of options anymore. When people around don't really care and just buy this junk because it's cheap, and they "need" a new TV ever three to four years, for some reason, then you get priced out of the market pretty quickly. Even if you look for TV, and yes I want a TV, not a monitor, without all this junk, there's not really any options available locally anymore. I believe my only option is the Thompson Easy TV, which is great, if I needed a 43" TV or lower.

Apparently I can attempt to import one from Romania, but that seems fairly complicated. Even sites that recommend dumb TVs just recommend SmartTVs that works well as a dumb TV.

I’ve read reports of these devices turning on wifi and auto connecting to known public wifi networks. Seems we went from a generation of technologists dismissing Stallman as paranoid to one living in his nightmare and not being appropriately familiar with his work, issues of art vs artist aside.

Business idea: a signal-jamming cover for your 65-inch TV.

It looks like shit, is difficult to install, and costs an arm and a leg, but at least it prevents egregious privacy violations from your average chaebol or CCP-intervened corporation!

How would you look at the panel, then? Do you think it is impenetrable?

I'd doubt that any such coating would be good for viewing quality.

> How would you look at the panel, then?

You only view your TV from inside the Faraday cage, of course.

Living bunker-style in a SCIF just for TV? Nah!

Don't forget your car. Definitely can't trust that without airgapping it.

I'm using a nukkular subterrene. No worries there.

Why not just change your wifi password so that the TV can't connect again (after you've got your OTAs but I guess you could have loaded them on a USB stick to flash instead of wifi)

Stallman has always been right. Hes a radical, but he was always been right. He is basically prescient with seeing how private software would be used. He was just so early that people thought he was a crazy radical, but now he seems to be stricken with a case of being Cassandra.

There hasn't been open public wifi networks near where I live for over a decade. It also seems increasingly rare for businesses to have them (they usually have an SSID and password posted somewhere). I don't think this is a thing.

But here's where it might go.

Verizon and other cell companies bundle streaming apps with their plans. It's really not a far leap for them to bundle a TV as well. Especially if TVs get really expensive due to whatever factors - get a 120" TV for just $30 extra on your bill over the next 5 years. And Verizon could contract with an OEM to make a Verizon-specific model, and put a 5G modem in it, and lock it to Verizon service. Verizon's just an example here, AT&T, T-Mobile could do the same.

LG TVs may be rooted. You probably can also run a pi-hole sort of thing to block any traffic except whitelisted domains.

Not that I've done it, I don't get enough value out of it to justify the hassle or the privacy intrusion.

The thing stopped being so needy when I neutered its internet access. Maybe it’s still exfiltrating data but at least it has stopped making me anxious that I may need to consult a civil rights lawyer every time I saw their EULA.

According to Root My TV, it seems like all methods of rooting recent LG TVs have been patched.

[1] https://rootmy.tv/

You mean there is no way to break it even though you have physical access to it? How is that possible?

We don't really have physical access to it - in the sense that on your desktop computer you can boot off a usb drive and reinstall the OS. There is no way you can boot your TV off external media. So you have to hack the existing OS while running it.

The way rooting working on a TV is that you run some javascript in the TV browser that targets some vulnerability in the browser/OS to run some code that then gives you a way in. Or if it has a USB port (to watch videos off a usb drive), you play a specifically crafted video that targets some vulnerability in the media players, to again install some program that then lets you do more serious changes to the OS.

Over time, LG fixes these vulnerabilities.

They patched that out many moons ago. If you havent updated in a few years you might have a shot, but most people cannot.

Even some cheap Kindles came with a SIM card.

I expect this to happen if enough people block ads on TVs. (They'll probably promote it as a "backup connection" or something.)

I think you're confused. Kindles need to be connected to the Internet so you can purchase and read books on them. The SIM card removed friction from the process e.g. buying books while on vacation or at the airport or whatever.

They didn't put SIM cards in there to spy on you. They were always an opt-in (at additional cost) option for a better user experience.

> They didn't put SIM cards in there to spy on you.

I'm sure Amazon tracked all sorts of activity on those, but that's not the point.

It would be quite trivial to add them to TVs to avoid ad blocking and track behavior when wifi isn't available.

The sim card in a kindle was a global connect-to-any-network SIM card. Your Kindle was always online and ready to download more books no matter where you were in the world. It was legit actually useful and valuable to customers.

What's Amazon gonna do with a Kindle with an embedded SIM? Spy on the books you read? They already know that shit!

The point is that a similarly cheap always-on SIM in a TV can be used to serve ads if blocking them at the network level becomes common.

Pro tip for devices that refuse to simply remove working WiFi credentials (cough Samsung), is to connect them to a different “dummy” WiFi and then simply turn that off.

I’ve yet to see a device that caches more than one set of credentials. But I suppose it’s only a matter of time.

Cat and mouse.

Then we shall only ever connect to a throwaway wifi ssid created for the sole purpose of setting up that TV and deleted promptly afterwards.

Samsung will then use NFC / QuickShare transient hotspot to helpfully sync all useful info from your Samsung phone nearby.

Then we block that IP address or MAC ID from router side.

Then smart TVs will switch to open mesh networks hosted by unsuspecting ISP customer boxes in neighborhood.

And maybe even starlink.

=====

Maybe wifi standard should stop using static passwords and create a device specific hash to let it connect. Wifi admin should get to approve each device connection request.

I'm going to convert my living room into a Faraday cage, only bringing in pre downloaded content via hard drive. That should solve this problem.

Although I'm not sure my family will be too happy.

Why not change your wifi password? Or just set up a temporary guest one and delete it?

I have a TCL so maybe it's different, but did your TVs require connection to set up?

The TCL can still act as a HDMI switch with CEC, and that can be labeled through the remote if you want, so there was never any need to connect to a network.

TV's last a long time. Get one with a bypass today and you can be set for decades.

I have had my Sharp 65" TV since 2012. It works great, has multiple HDMI ports and a USB port, but I am worried that one day I will need a new TV.

Copy that. I have a 2007 Kuro Elite 50" Plasma whose picture is still so beautiful after 19 years it's almost 3D. Not.One.Repair/Problem/EVER. I dread ever having to buy a new TV.

2008 Kuro Pro 111FD here; not a single issue to report, either. I honestly don’t know what I’ll do once something eventually happens; I’m seriously considering hoarding any similar Elite models within drivable distance.

With the widespread move to OLED across the TV and monitor manufacturers, this might not be the case for much longer. They look and perform great, but are ultimately a consumable product.

> Pro tip for devices that refuse to simply remove working WiFi credentials

Is there examples of such devices? AFAIK every smart TV can be switched to HDMI input without being ever connected to the Internet.

My parents got a new smart TV; if you don't give it wifi access it will nag repeatedly about it. Very annoying, and it only takes one time for it to go "Yay! I'll store these forever now."

(It will also wheedle you to re-enable the AI features and telemetry if you turn those off. Which you do like eight levels of confusingly and scarily named submenus.)

The best course of action here seems to return the TV. Any TV that cannot be permanently switched to HDMI input without nags is unfit for purpose and should be rejected.

Tell your parents that with this stuff enabled, it's giving another way for scammers to steal their data to use against them.

I.e. We're from the internet company. Really, you are? Yes, didn't you watch XYZ on Netflix last night? Oh, right, ok, here's my password.

You can also open up the back and remove the antenna connection.

This is outrageous and we need to stand up against it. You're merely avoiding the danger of uber-enshittification of hardware (now once software is enshittified enough), but this will crawl further and further. Meanwhile rating companies are lowering ratings of firms that DO NOT have 'subscription model' in their products, that's why we're intended to pay for enabling heating in car seats from now on.

My car has heated and ventilated seats. These do not require a subscription.

For now

https://www.thedrive.com/news/bmw-commits-to-subscriptions-e...

"But while BMW ultimately backed down over heated seats, the company still believes in the features-as-a-service model, and will continue to offer post-purchase upgrades through its ConnectedDrive platform. "

And then they will complain that Chinese company are simply crushing them... As a European, I have been buying only Asian cars for ages as I don't want to play their "add options" game, and I think that more and more people are tired of that.

The enshittification and lack of market understanding (or care) of the major European car brands is a topic by itself. They may be rightfully complaining right now but a lot of their woes are self inflicted.

I drive a Cupra (a Spanish brand, a spinoff of SEAT, owned by Volkswagen) and when I was driving my car out of the dealership I had to tell the salesman I was not interested in signing up for the free app they were trying to foist me. He was dumbfounded. The model was selling like hotcakes yet I was the first customer that had outright refused to sign up for their shitty app. They pulled off the inevitable switcheroo, it now costs a monthly fee and I don’t want to think about what insidious things they can do with it.

Chances are the dealer and manufacturer can still get telemetry data through the cellular modem built into the car. You will need to remove it to be reasonably sure that data isn't extracted.

I know they are because they called me for service at the 10k km mark, but at least they’re not charging me for the pleasure.

The issue is that data is also shared with third parties, such as insurance companies and possibly the government. I could not, in good conscience, drive a car that spies on me and can be effectively controlled remotely.

>Chances are the dealer and manufacturer can still get telemetry data through the cellular modem built into the car.

Exactly why I have a car without a cellular modem. They're getting quite rare, though, and I imagine will soon be impossible.

I believe you're required to have it due to EU regulation for "automated 112 calling"

My car’s seats are warmed by my butt. They’re very happy and comfortable and I didn’t have to pay a dime.

Because it would be unpopular, not because it can't be done.

Rest assured, when the time is right and the average consumer complacent enough, they will require a subscription. Yes, I can see the future. Call me an Oracle. No, not that Oracle.

Over the past many decades, we're seeing standards slip and slip as our standards for goods are constantly challenged. What was unthinkable just 10 years ago is now business as usual.

If you told someone in 2005 they would have to upload their ID and scan their face to use a chat application, they would call you crazy. If you told someone in 2015 that Google Glass was gonna come back and this time people would like being recorded and would willingly give up their camera feed, they would think you're insane.

The TV manufacturers know they can get a guaranteed $30-50/year spliff out of the platform vendors per unit for allowing the shitware in the first place and that these TVs will last long enough to get them a nice several hundred dollar subsidy on the TV.

I’m afraid there’s not going to be a great affordable path out of this hypersubsidized trap we’ve set the market into.

Consumers just keep putting up with it. TVs are not a necessity; it's not like electric bills or healthcare. There are more ways to consume content than ever before, and more content available than ever before. Not owning a TV in the 80s or 90s was something of a big deal. Now, it couldn't matter less. But people are still putting up with whatever crap manufacturers are putting out. It should be easy to vote with wallet (even that means simply not purchasing a TV) but consumers just keep buying this crap.

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