Suppose almost all work in the future is done via LLMs, just like almost all transportation is done today via cars instead of horses.
Do you think your worldview is still a reasonable one under those conditions?
Do you think your worldview is still a reasonable one under those conditions?
Maybe one day it will be.. And then people can reevaluate their stance then. Until that time, it's entirely reasonable to hold the position that you just don't
This is especially true with how LLM generated code may affect licensing and other things. There's a lot of unknowns there and it's entirely reasonable to not want to risk your projects license over some contributions.
I use them all the time at work because, rightly or wrongly, my company has decided that's the direction they want to go.
For open source, I'm not going to make that choice for them. If they explicitly allow for LLM generated code, then I'll use it, but if not I'm not going to assume that the project maintainers are willing to deal with the potential issues it creates.
For my own open source projects, I'm not interested in using LLM generated code. I mostly work on open source projects that I enjoy or in a specific area that I want to learn more about. The fact that it's functional software is great, but is only one of many goals of the project. AI generated code runs counter to all the other goals I have.
People might still code by hand as a hobby, but I'd be surprised if nearly all professional coding isn't being done by LLMs within the next year or two. It's clear that doing it by hand would mostly be because you enjoy the process. I expect people that are more focused on the output will adopt LLMs for hobby work as well.
This is gaslighting. We're only a few years into coding agents being a thing. Look at the history of human innovation and tell me that I'm unreasonable for suspecting that there is an iceberg worth of unmitigated externalities lurking beneath the surface that haven't yet been brought to light. In time they might. Like PFAS, ozone holes, global warming.
The other factor that gets glossed over is that llms create a financial incentive to create cleaner code, with tests, because the agent that you pay for will be more efficient when the code is easier to understand, and has clear patterns for extensibility. When I do code with llms, a big part of it is demonstration, i.e. pseudocoding a pattern/structure, asking the model if it understands, and then having it complete the pattern. I've had a lot of success with this approach.
Right, this is the kind of discussion we're having on my team: suddenly all of the already good engineering practices like good observability, clear tests with high coverage, clean design, etc. act as a massive force multiplier and are that much more important. They're also easier to do if you prioritize it. We should be seeing quality go up. It's trivial to explore the solution space with throwaway PoCs, collect real data to drive your design, do all of those "nice to have" cleanups, etc. The people who assume LLM = slop are participating in a bizarre form of cope. Garbage in, garbage out; quality in, quality out. Just accept that coding per se is not going to be a profession for long. Leverage new tools to learn more, do more, etc. This should be an exciting time for programmers.
This will not happen until companies decide to care about quality again. They don't want employees spending time on anything "extra" unless it also makes them significantly more money.
That seems like a win-win in a sense: let the agentic coders do their thing, and the artisanal coders do their thing, and we'll see who wins in the long run.
And this is why eventually you are likely to run the artisanal coders who tend to do most of the true innovation out of the room.
Because by and large, agentic coders don't contribute, they make their own fork which nobody else is interested in because it is personalized to them and the code quality is questionable at best.
Eventually, I'm sure LLM code quality will catch up, but the ease with which an existing codebase can be forked and slightly tuned, instead of contributing to the original, is a double edged sword.
Personally, I would not currently expect a fork of RedoxOS that is AI-implemented to become more popular than RedoxOS itself.
Isn't that literally how open-source works, and why there's so many Linux distros?
Code quality is a subjective term as well, I feel like everyone dunking on AI coding is a defensive reaction - over time this will become an entirely acceptable concept.
Vibe coders don't have to do any of this. They don't have to understand anything, they can just have their LLMs do some modifications that are completely opaque to the vibe coder.
Perhaps the long term steady state will be a goldilocks renaissance of open source where lots of new ideas and contributors spring up, made capable with AI assistance. But so far what I've seen is the opposite. These people just feed existing work into their LLMs, produce derivative works and never bother to engage with the original authors or community.
I spend time using my agent to better understand existing codebases and their best practices than I'd ever have the time/energy to do before, giving me a broader and more holistic view on whatever I'm changing, before I make a change.
I always find it odd that people say both that vibe coding has obvious and immediate negative consequences in terms of quality and at the same time that nobody could learn or be incentivized to produce better architecture and code quality from vibe coding when they would obviously face those consequences.
This also lines up with the history of automation in many other industries. Modern manufacturing is capable of producing parts that a medieval blacksmith couldn't dream of, for example. Sure, maybe an artisan can produce better code than an llm now, but AI assisted humans will beat them in the near future if they aren't already producing similar quality output at greater speed, and tomorrow's models will fix the bad code written today. The fact that there's even a discussion on automated vs hand written today means that the writing is almost certainly on the wall.
But if a project bans AI then yeah, they'll be run out of town because I won't bother trying to contribute.
Saves the rest of us from having to tell you.
this feels like the place where your approach breaks down. I have had very poor results trying to build a foundation that CAN be polished, or where features don't quickly feel like a jenga tower. I'm wondering if the success we've seen is because AI is building on top of, or we're early days in "foundational" work? Is anyone aware of studies comparing longer term structural aspects? is it too early?
Bold of you to assume that people won’t move (and their code along with it) to spaces where parasitic behaviour like this doesn’t occur, locking you out.
In addition to just being a straight-up rude, disrespectful and parasite position to take, you’re effectively poisoning your own well.
Additionally, if they accept AI contributions, I try, when I have the time and energy, make sure my PRs are high quality, and provide them. If they don't, then I'll go off and do my own thing, because that's literally what they asked me to do, and I wasn't going to contribute otherwise. I fail to see how that's rude or parasitic or disrespectful in any way except my assumption that the more featureful and polished forks might eventually win out.
That sounds very Usanian. In the meantime transportation in around me is done on foot, bicycle, bus, tram, metro, train and cars. There are good use cases for each method including the car. If you really want to use an automotive analogy, then sure, LLMs can be like cars. I've seen cities made for cars instead of humans, and they are a horrible place to live.
Signed, a person who totally gets good results from coding with LLMs. Sometimes, maybe even often.
Start new projects using LLM tools, or maybe fork projects where that is acceptable. Don't force the volunteer maintainers of existing projects with existing workflows and cultures to review AI generated code. Create your own projects with workflows and cultures that are supportive of this, from the ground up.
I'm not suggesting this will come without downside, but it seems better to me than expecting maintainers to take on a new burden that they really didn't sign up for.
There clearly should be, but that is not the world we live in.