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At least from what I’ve seen around me professionally, the issue with most Scala projects was that developers started new projects in Scala while also still learning Scala through a Coursera course, without having a FP background and therefore lacking intuition/experience on which technique to apply when and where. The result was that you could see “more advanced” Scala (as per the course progression) being used in newer code of the projects. Then older code was never refactored resulting in a hodgepodge of different techniques.

This can happen in any language and is more indicative of not having a strong lead safeguarding the consistency of the codebase. Now Scala has had the added handicap of being able to express the same thing in multiple ways, all made possible in later iterations of Scala, and finally homogenised in Scala 3.

I agree. IMO, Scala can be written in Li Haoyi's way and it's a pleasure to work with. However, the FP and Effect Scala people are too loud and too smart that if I write Scala in Li Haoyi's way, I feel like I'm too stupid. I like Rust because of no GC, no VM and memory safe. If Rust has features that a Joe java programmer like me can't understand, I guess it'll be like Scala.

I honestly just don't believe that Rust is more complex to onboard to compared to languages like Python. It just does not match my experience at all. I've been a professional rust developer for about three years. Every time I look at python code, it's doing something insane where the function argument definition basically looks like line noise with args and kwargs, with no types, so it's impossible to guess what the parameeters will be for any given function. Every python developer I know makes heavy use of the repl just to figure out what methods they can call on some return value of some underdocumented method of a library they're using. The first time I read pandas code, I saw something along the lines of df[df["age"] < 3] and thought I was having a stroke. Yet python has a reputation for being easy to learn and use. We have a python developer on our team and it probably took me about a day to onboard him to rust and get him able to make changes to our (fairly complicated) Rust codebase.

Don't get me wrong, rust has plenty of "weird" features too, for example higher rank trait bounds have a ridiculous syntax and are going to be hard for most people to understand. But, almost no one will ever have to use a higher rank trait bound. I encounter such things much more rarely in rust than in almost any other mainstream language.

The language itself is not more complex to onboard. For Scala also not. It feels great to have all these language features to ones proposal. The added complexity is in the way how expert code is written. The experts are empowered and productive, but heightens the barrier of entry for newcomers by their practices. Note that they also might expertly write more accessible code to avoid the issue, and then I agree with (though I can't compare to Python, never used it).

Hm, you claim that Rust and Scala are not more complex to onboard than Python... but then you say you never used Python? If that's the case, how do you know? Having used both, I do think Rust is harder to onboard, just because there is more syntax that you need to learn. And Rust is a lot more verbose. And that's before you are exposed to the borrow checker.

I am not mentioning Python at all. I contrasted Rust with Scala.

Well, the parent wrote "I honestly just don't believe that Rust is more complex to onboard to compared to languages like Python." And you wrote "The language itself is not more complex to onboard." So... to contract Rust with Scala, I think it's clearer to write "The language itself is not more complex to onboard _than Scala_."

To that, I completely agree! Scala is one of the most complex languages, similar to C++. In terms of complexity (roughly the number of features) / hardness to onboard, I would have the following list (hardest to easiest): C++, Scala, Rust, Zig, Swift, Nim, Kotlin, JavaScript, Go, Python.

I see the confusion. ChadNauseam mentions Python to another comment of mine, where I mentioned Gleam. In your list hardest-to-easiest perhaps Gleam is even easier than Python. They literally advertise it as "the language you can learn in a day".

Thanks a lot! I wasn't aware of Gleam, it really seems simple. I probably wouldn't say "learn in a day", any I'm not sure if it's simpler than Python, but it's statically typed, and this adds some complexity necessarily.

> I honestly just don't believe that Rust is more complex to onboard to compared to languages like Python.

Most people conflate "complexity" and "difficulty". Rust is a less complex language than Python (yes, it's true), but it's also much more difficult, because it requires you to do all the hard work up-front, while giving you enormously more runtime guarantees.

Doing the hard work up front is easier than doing it while debugging a non-trivial system. And there are boilerplate patterns in Rust that allow you to skip the hard work while doing throwaway exploratory programming, just like in "easier" languages. Except that then you can refactor the boilerplate away and end up with a proper high-quality system.

> And then you bump into the code lines crafted by the experts, and they are line for line so 'smart' they take a real long time to figure out how the heck it all fits together.

Thing is, the alternative to "smart" code that packs a lot into a single line is code where that line turns into multiple pages of code, which is in fact worse for understanding. At least with PL features, you only have to put in the work once and you can grok how they're meant to be used anywhere.