4% seems high. Quick googling in the US (which has high rates) shows 1.5-3.5%, avg of 2%
I guess the question is whether they can distinguish between people who are going to carry a balance but ultimately pay and people who are a true default/bankruptcy risk.
Yes, revenue provides cash flow, not profit. And costs provide the other part, as was already mentioned. But if it increases cash flow without increasing relative costs, it increases profit. Do you think banks would charge fees if they could make more money by removing them? Again, the banks are largely in control of these costs, like the amount of cash back they provide. For example, the federal reserve reports that bank fees account for 1.82% of purchase volume, while cash back programs account for 1.57% of purchase volume. In other words, they make a profit on balance.
You can read the financial statements to get more information. That's where the above numbers came from. They don't generally say "Fees contribute to X% of profits" but they do indicate they are relatively large parts of revenue. For example, JPMorgan lists $5.97B in fee revenue and rewards cost $4.28B, with the difference being profit. So where are the extra costs you are implying coming from that make fees a net cost?
>> Cards don't make money from their fees. They make money from people who fail to pay and then pay the ridiculous interest.
> Interchange fees seem to be a sizable portion of revenue. Discover has listed them as 29% of revenue, BoA at ~$10B annually…
My complaint is that pointing at revenue alone does not rebut the initial statement. That's all. The argument was insufficient, not your side of the argument is wrong.
Saying “revenue doesn’t equal profits” is superficially true but lacking any real substantive claim. It’s like saying “to lose weight you just need to burn more calories than you consume.” True, but a lazy attempt at a retort.
I tried to foster discussion. If profits = revenue - costs, I asked where those costs are coming from that would erode those profits. Yet again, you replied in a manner that limits discussion. Many of us come to HN because we expect higher levels of discussion than the typical Internet forum cesspool, like the guidelines lay out.
We blocked that card processor, obviously. But the % is very much not constant across e.g. Visa, often every purchase in a day is slightly different, and we can't even tell people what the rate is for their purchase due to a couple layers in between (still figuring out if we can fix that). It's vile, and probably should be illegal to not pass through the cost visibly.
I helped out a friend who owns a deli when he took over from his parents. His dad saw cash as a way to avoid taxation and had some awful payment processor where they paid a high fee and was renting a POTS based terminal - $60/mo to Verizon and $30/mo for the terminal.
Now he keeps one set of books, and raised his average sale by about 10%. Their catering business, which drives profits, are up significantly with online ordering through the POS.
Ditto with a non-profit I was on the board of. Pushing Venmo and Square for donations increased donations by like 30% and reduced shrink at fundraisers. Anyone who claims they can’t afford a 3% fee is going out of business anyway.
See the "raw" rates here: https://www.mastercard.com/content/dam/mccom/us/business/doc...
> complaint: credit card fees are high and maliciously opaque.
> suggestion: have you considered adding another company in the middle?
... do y'all understand that those middle companies profit from being in the middle? that profit comes from somewhere, where oh where could it be...
why on earth would you expect them to improve your income? you are literally buying convenience from them. or is this just thinly disguised advertising?