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This is the best laptop for the general consumer around $1k.

  - it has no annoying fans, it is completely silent
  - a high res display with no PWM flickering and reasonable response times, no burn-in issues, enough brightness for outdoor use
  - best-in-class hardware, very very efficient, amazing single thread performance, good multi thread, very good GPU
  - no Microsoft Windows annoyances, ads, bloatware, broken stuff all the time
  - much better real world performance on battery than x64 processors (!). you can get reasonable perf by setting Intel/AMD CPUs to high perf, but then goodbye battery life and get ready for very loud fans. this is simply a point not emphasized enough, the real world battery perf of Intel/AMD laptops is very sluggish on default power modes and despite that, they consume more battery than the M5
  - amazing battery life
  - good workmanship, no creaking, good hardware overall (mics, webcam, keyboard, touchpad!)
  - very good speakers

There is simply nothing comparable in the Windows laptop world. You can maybe get a cheaper Windows laptop but it will be terrible in almost everything - the new Apple budget MacBooks will probably be a much better choice. And around $1000, there is no comparison. I wish it was different.

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> You can maybe get a cheaper Windows laptop but it will be terrible in almost everything

It will be worse at almost everything, except running my preferred OS (Linux). Being able to upgrade/repair RAM, storage and battery at home is quite a perk too.

Not on the latest but I’m happily running Asahi NixOS

Even for the M1 generation feature support is not complete. Also, this a thread about current models. Asahi is still awesome though!

And if you are comparing against an M1 or M2 you can find numerous PC laptops that will beat that out in performance and still have a quiet/cool/long battery life operation.

Yes, the MacBook Air is unique-ish for having no fan at all, but a slow running fan that you can barely hear is going to get you more performance with basically zero added cost or compromise.

And for those users who don’t need top performance and just need an affordable office app machine, I’d argue that Snapdragon laptops have the same primary benefits as the MacBook Air.

In terms of competition against x86, Apple is only ahead of competition in their latest two or so generations and only in specific ways.

Want to play games sometimes like 936 million other PC gamers in the world? (The fastest growing segment of people who buy computers) You’ll pay a lot less for an Omen Transcend 14 than a MacBook Pro at the same specs and you’ll get a system with a very similar noise and battery life profile, along with far Better graphics performance.

I don’t personally think Windows is so bad compared to Mac in terms of annoyances. Mac nags you about all of Apple’s subscription services and you can’t even uninstall their apps like News and Stocks. Microsoft lets you uninstall everything including Notepad. It’s really not that annoying after about 5 minutes changing settings and uninstalling some things.

If we are talking about buying a used Mac we are also talking about buying a computer that will lose software support before the Windows equivalent historically. E.g., you buy an M2 MacBook Air and you’ve got about 7 years left or less before you lose major OS versions. Almost guarantee you that won’t be the case with any reasonably recent Windows PC that supports 11 today. My

Not true. Mac OS does not nag you about subscription services. What are you talking about?

Windows is offensive, insufferable trash. From its CONTINUAL hounding about "your Microsoft account" to its bug-riddled, regressive, and shambolic UI. Things Windows users took for granted 40 years ago are simply gone.

Example: Select three PNGs in Explorer and right-click on them, and look for "Open with..."

Literally the moment you buy a Mac. Apple hardware comes with 3 month trials of various subscriptions, and you get a notification about it. They try to get you to sign up in hopes you’ll forget to cancel.

When I bought my iPhone 17 the sales associate even tried to pitch signing up for the trial in person as he guided me through the purchase process.

When you cancel the trial it ends it immediately instead of ending it at the end of your trial period, a dark pattern designed to encourage you to forget to end your trial.

Apple devices also nag you about buying AppleCare in the system preferences.

I’ve never been hounded about my Microsoft account. Be specific. When does this happen? Yes, you need one to set up Windows 11 (just like a Mac and especially iOS are basically useless without an Apple account anyway), but after that I’ve never been hounded around anything related to it.

Never had problems figuring out how to open stuff in Windows. No idea what you’re saying.

Most of these extreme claims about Windows seem to come from people who don’t even use the OS regularly and have forgotten about the ways in which macOS does many of the same commercial OS practices.

Every time my Windows gaming PC updates it nags me about setting up backups to OneDrive.

I cannot install Windows without a Microsoft account unless I apply work-arounds.

It constantly offers Office 365, even adding dummy icons to the start menu.

There are adverts on the login screen.

To be fair I installed Bazzite there, but for a laptop I cannot find an equivalent device at the same price point even ignoring the need for linux drivers.

Even after saying no to OneDrive and doing all I can to remove it, it tends to randomly come back months later and will automatically start uploading my desktop and documents folder to the cloud.

Edit: I even specifically bought the Pro version hoping to be able to shut some of this off.

It's not worth the hassle, but for the Windows machines in my house I set up Windows Server and have all the machines provisioned to an Active Directory domain where I turn off all the crap via Group Policy. You can get by with just editing Group Policy for a standalone Windows Pro copy, but for more than one machine I really didn't want to fiddle with having to update each machine's policy whenever Microsoft does something stupid.

This literally does not happen. Are you on Windows 10? It doesn't happen in 11. It is fully uninstalled. If I search the Start Menu for OneDrive it doesn't even show up.

It very much does happen. I’m one 11. It seems like every time it updates I get the “let’s finish setting up your computer” screen that asks me to setup one drive.

Mine does not nag me about OneDrive or backups. OneDrive is not even installed. If I search my start menu for OneDrive, nothing even comes up.

Sure, you can't install Windows without a Microsoft account, but realistically a Mac is far less useful if you don't do the same thing. If you don't sign in with an Apple ID you've got zero iPhone integration, for example. I would imagine that 95% of Mac users are signed in to their Apple ID.

Signing in to an account to use commercial software doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I'd rather sign in to my account than deal with entering a product license key and needing to keep track of it.

I have not been offered Office 365 since after the first install.

There are not adverts on my login screen, it's completely blank. Change your settings.

These sales tactics are not unique to Windows, Mac subscriptions are upsold in the system settings and via notifications. They do go away and stay away but they are there when you buy the system.

- When you buy a new device you get a few notes in System Settings encouraging you to try the free trials as well as buy AppleCare. You can dismiss these permanently with a couple clicks on each.

- When you open the respective apps they ask if you want to try the free trial.

- Apple once abused the Wallet app to send notifications about a theatrical release.

Other than that I'm not sure what the fuss is about.

Wait, my M3 MacBook Air nags me about Apple subscription services? Where? When?

And you're right, I can't uninstall Stocks or News, but I if I never open them, does it matter?

Apple Music, iCloud

On M1 there are still issues with wifi not recovering after sleep and for me its just disappear sometimes.

Something like Framework is more expensive thanks to RAM abd SSD shortage, but Linux support is so much better.

Funny you should say that since my framework intel 12th gen just started dropping wifi/bluetooth randomly and one cpu starts looking for it frantically in a loop almost bringing the laptop to a crawl (it's very likely a hardware issue and not a linux issue)

Not saying Framework is perfect, but I daily drive Asahi on Mac and its just rough all very over.

Dont get me wrong - Asahi is great undertaking and impressive work. Its just idea of buying hardware specifically to drive it is not rational.

There is a lot of hardware with more compkete and stable Linux support.

Good to know as I have long hesitated to get my hand on refurbished M1 before opting for the framework. On the good side I was able to replace a bent frame and a broken display for a reasonable price instead of having a useless sitting duck/wondering how to use a broken laptop

Many newer Windows laptops are now having their ability to update ram and storage removed as well. I believe the newest intel architecture introduced this, but my information might be out of date.

LPCAMM2 is more present on business/high end machines unfortunately. It's not an Intel restriction.

There are Intel CPUs which come with bundled RAM. For example Intel Core Ultra 5 238V. It's like SoM: RAM is mounted directly on the CPU package, not even soldered on the motherboard. I'm not sure what particular advantages does that bring over traditional packaging, maybe shorter wires to allow for faster turnarounds between CPU and RAM. But there's zero chance of upgrading or replacing RAM for sure.

> I'm not sure what particular advantages does that bring over traditional packaging

Massive increase in bandwidth, which is useful for e.g. running local LLMs.

In theory, but that is not the case with Lunar Lake, which nowadays does not have a greater bandwidth than the current CPUs with external LPDDR memory.

However, at launch, a year and a half ago, it had a bandwidth about 15% higher than competing CPUs.

For a really "massive increase in bandwidth", it would have needed a wider memory interface, like AMD Ryzen Max, which has a 256-bit memory interface, instead of the 128-bit memory interface of most Intel/AMD laptop CPUs.

Yes, totally. By introduced I didn't mean they were the first in the space but rather they have introduced it to the laptops they're shipping now. But yes, it's been a thing for awhile on other architectures as well.

I totally get it. I have the M4 Air, grabbed it for 700$ on sale. I also have a MSI Creator with Linux (wayland). Performance wise the base Air crunches through everything up until lots of things are open and gpu is roaring (encoding or streaming), and with colima, I have few incus linux containers up and running. Battery life is formidable. Nothing comes close.

My linux laptop (32GB ram / beefy gpu) barely withstand 40 min on battery, but can handle very daunting tasks, and obviously gaming.

These are 2 different use cases, but right now, for the ultra portable laptop, Air is the king, until x64 brings back the efficiency per watt. Even qcom can't compete. That being said, I am a big fan of the apple hardware and not the apple software, so whenever Asahi linux is ready enough (with good battery life), I am definitely jumping ship.

That beefy GPU is the killer for battery life. There's quite a few PC laptops floating about that get in the 10-16 hour range battery life on lighter workloads (text editors, fast compilers, streaming video, browsing internet). I'm typing this on one right now. I wish it was running linux, but I need windows for work up until we get the last of our antiquated .net platform on core.

Sure, it's got integrated graphics so it won't win any gaming awards, but that's what the laptop with the beefy GPU sitting in the corner is for :) That thing pumps out enough heat to not be too pleasant sitting on a lap anyway.

Exactly. Big GPUs are the #1 reason battery doesn’t last on Linux laptops.

Power management is not done well with the GPU drivers in Linux. If they are not used, they still draw a lot of power, while that’s not really the case on Windows, from what I heard.

I think the best is to get a good Linux laptop, but with an integrated GPU. If you really want to do anything beefy, you can always use an eGPU :)!

Obviously this will never come close in terms of convenience as having an actual M series MacBook…

Wishing you best of luck for the .net migration!

> Being able to upgrade/repair RAM

Most upcoming laptops now have soldered RAM and soldered wifi becomes common too.

At least you have the choice to pick one that does not.

Soldered RAM is not necessarily bad, because it is usually more reliable than SODIMMs, so it is less likely to require replacements before other parts fail and it is less likely to suffer from transient hardware errors that are not caught due to the lack of ECC memory in most laptops and mini-PCs.

However I consider soldered SSDs and/or soldered batteries as completely unacceptable, as they limit the lifetime of a computer to low values.

Honestly for the price you'd have to pay to get an equivalent Windows laptop you can buy two Macbook Airs. I think Apple's higher end machines are overpriced but their entry level laptops are a bargain, for what you get. Unless you need Linux (and the resulting bugginess/short battery life), it's really a no-brainer.

(Don't tell my Linux isn't buggy. I use it, but I regularly run into nonsense like this: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=512297 that doesn't happen on Windows or Mac. I still haven't figured out why VSCode freezes for half a second every few minutes on Linux.)

> I wish it was different

Amen to that, my keyboard on my m1 air recently failed. I was horrified to find out it is literally riveted to the frame. I got this close to buying a new one. Something annoyed me about this perfectly good laptop being rendered compltely useless and I ended up buying a replacement keyboard, ripping out the old one and shimming this one with paper. Its not perfect but here I am typing from it.

But you are 100% right, there is just nothing better on the market. The gap is so big.

The riveting sounds, as you say, horrifying. Congrats on making it your own again.

It’s still remarkable to me that it’s even possible to do it at all. The amount of tech and miniaturization crammed into that thing — it would be easier for them to rivet, weld, and glue every part, and cheaper. And if the build quality weren’t so high to begin with, it wouldn’t have withstood the repair at all.

A good friend has a Framework, and it’s cool as hell, but incredibly primitive compared with your M1.

Primitive in what sense though? As I have had one for longer than my Macbook lasted in the same situation, plus it is upgradeable as and when I choose. I loved apple of old, and the classic apple that was the framework of it's time regarding upgradeability, has long gone.

Framework owner here: The fw just does not feel as sturdy as a Macbook, it does the job and it's ok but not macbook grade. The framework feels like it's been built with just enough whereas the macbook feels strong and self-contained.

It doesn't feel as sturdy, but I have actually had less issues with it in the same amount of time, and each one I have been able to fix myself cheapily and easily. The Macbook does feel sturdy, but it is deceptive as one issue means the whole laptop is almost needing to be replaced which is not strong in reality.

How did it fail?

no idea, space started typing a "}" followed by a space. Few other keys started doing wonky things aswell.

You do get a new battery with Keyboard replacement. So it is not that bad although it may still be better to buy a new MacBook considering the cost.

If this one is anything like the previous ones, ThinkPad is still beating it in the keyboard department.

Plus you get x86_64 and vendor support for Linux.

X13 is probably the best equivalent in Lenovo's line.

How’s ACPI and real suspend (not that “fake” soft suspend) these days? I’m still burned after running Linux on a laptop since 2002 and not having proper power management for suspend :(

… if it’s not the power layer, it’s the network, video, Bluetooth that won’t power up anymore after a nap

It's a toss up. Works great on my 2017 X1 Extreme. Doesn't work on old 4th Gen i3/i5 E550 thinkpads I refurbish, etc.

Dang :(

So what’s your opinion on the beefiest laptop money can buy (NVIDIA based for CUDA) that supports Linux the best?

I'd consider System76 in that case, I don't think their fit and finish is known for being top tier but the specs are pretty good. Also maybe framework? The thinkpads and dells are probably mostly fine, you can always return it if it doesn't work.

> How’s ACPI and real suspend

On a current ThinkPad? Essentially perfect. Zero problems suspending and resuming, no matter what's going on, including weird cases like suspending while docked and resuming while undocked or vice versa.

Do current thinkpads still have real suspend? I thought it was discontinued by intel. And if they do, how do you enable it? I haven’t seen anything in the bios of my p14s g6

Sadly, this is what I thought. Nobody wants to open their backpack to find a warm helicopter

Current ThinkPads have working suspend out-of-the-box, including turning off or putting to sleep peripheral devices, waking on keypresses or lid opening, and otherwise handling suspend/resume exactly as expected.

Isn't that the "modern standby" thing? Mine (p14sg6 intel) "works well" in that it suspends, wakes, etc (under linux, don't use windows enough on it to have formed an opinion).

But it doesn't support S3 (suspend to ram), only s0ix:

    $ cat /sys/power/mem_sleep
    [s2idle]

In both cases, the peripherals are put to sleep, and the RAM goes into self-refresh mode. The main difference is that if there are any bugs, they can be fixed in the OS rather than the BIOS.

I haven't tried this much on this Lenovo laptop, but on my HP ones, both Intel and AMD, the main difference I notice under Windows is that the laptop stays warm to the touch in this mode, whereas in S3 on older machines it used to go cold. Additionally, with both Linux and Windows, the battery drains much more quickly compared to the old S3 mode (even though on Linux it gets cold to the touch).

The HP Intel is the one I use Windows most often on (since sleep is basically borked on Windows on the AMD one), and on that machine, I actually hear the fans running while in standby (it wasn't actually fully on, judging by the LED pulsating instead of being continuously on). Which is absurd, since the fans are hardly ever audible under Linux in normal office use.

> X13 is probably the best equivalent in Lenovo's line.

I think the X1 Carbon line is the best direct competitor.

Not in terms of heat management it’s not.

There's not much difference between the keyboard of the X13 Gen 6 and the keyboard of the MacBook Pro M1. I own both devices. The keyboard of my T14s Gen 1 on the other hand is noticeably better.

Not just low key travel. Here in Europe, Mac keyboards have an anemic vertical Return key. Its widest point is as wide as the `\` key on a US keyboard. No such issues on ThinkPads.

I always get UK keyboard, not because of enter, but tilde and ` placement. CMD+` for window switching is so much easier on UK keyboard.

I was pretty pissed off when warranty accidentally replaced it with US layout (battery went under 80% which means top case replacement which basically feels like brand new laptop).

I had the same issue. The fix for this is to order directly from Apple and then to choose the “English (US)” keyboard layout. That way you get the ANSI layout :)

> very good speakers

All of the above is true but this, actually, is not entirely: they use a lot of DSP. If you try the same speakers with regular Fedora Asahi with no DSP profile (i.e. vanilla sound), they're very mediocre and do not handle bass well. So, like with many aspects of Apple hardware, this is an example of their software/firmware complimenting the hardware.

It's part DSP, part thermal modeling. The speakers can be driven pretty hard, but will overheat and fail if too much energy is put into them in too short a time. macOS has a thermal model to keep the speakers within safe limits; a major component of Asahi's DSP profile is a similar model. (Without that model in place, Asahi reduces the peak power level to avoid damage.)

Windows laptops also do, but unfortunately the DSP is not hidden in OS and are part of preinstalled software and usually not active by default.

you forgot to mention the trackpad. MUCH nicer than the competitor trackpads. especially if you use some of the advanced gestures (some are hidden in accessibility settings).

You can also close the lid and trust it to stay off and open it up even a week later and resume at the same place you left off with very little battery usage. How no one else can figure out how to do this in almost 15 years or more is beyond me.

Its absolutley mind boggling. My work machine (lenovo) regualry roasts itself to 0% battery in my backpack during my commute

This is likely some monitoring/attendant software your employer is running remotely, not the fault of the hardware directly.

Happens on my ASUS ROG Zephyrus G14, personal laptop frequently enough i do a full power down when not using it. Definitely a hardware/Windows problem.

Unplug before closing. I'm not sure where I read this, but this is the cause for the backpack cooking. When plugged in it goes into active sleep or something, not really sleep. When unplugged and it goes to battery mode, and activates the real sleep mode.

Something something windows something something shitty power management.

Try it for yourself and see if that makes a difference. It worked for me!

I remember at some point dell had a warning to not sleep your laptop and put it in a bag, as it can actually cook the lcd panel!

The question is, why has Apple been able to figure this out, but Lenovo and Microsoft haven't?

it does two things, normal power sleep + writes a memory snapshot to disk. So even if it runs out and powers down completely it still puts you back where you were when you plug it in and open lid, just a bit slower and you need to auth

> you forgot to mention the trackpad.

I have occasionally used MacBooks and the trackpad is the same as windows laptops. Or rather it becomes as good when I enable tap to click

- thermal throttling under sustained heavy load, though apparently there is the possibility to add thermal pads to get rid of throttling, probably at the expense of comfort

- no Linux support

Otherwise I agree, it is a wonderful machine. I'd replace my crappy thinkpad if I could.

My 2014 Air is still going strong for light web browsing and terminal use.

> thermal throttling under sustained heavy load

This gets mentioned a lot, but I do quite a bit of dev work on my M4 MBA and have never even felt it get warm. Sustained heavy loads are extremely rare with how quick this thing is.

And the fact that there is no annoying fan noise ever is just priceless.

With the way most consumer laptops have their fan curves set, you open a new web page and get an annoying ramp up. It is not just a hardware thing, but mostly a self inflicted wound of having a fan curve that is way too aggressive.

If it's not aggressive then quickly laptop will be too hot to touch. For instance, I did tune the fan on my friend's laptop so that it wouldn't be waking up everyone for light browsing, but then it was getting uncomfortably hot. None of such issues on Macs.

Even if it had fans. If they are like the Pro, you won’t hear them. I did extraction with LLMs for a long time to the point where they came on and I had to get my ear close to them to confirm they were on

How long are your compile times?

I wouldn't call my personal project "heavy load", but I have a cross-platform C++ project that I am developing on both a Windows gaming PC and a 2020 M1 macbook air.

I use clang to compile on both machines. The M1 mac has noticeably faster compile times.

Fairly short, I'm a Go developer generally working with terraform and microservices. I'd expect some throttling if you're doing 3+ minute compiles, I think. But I think the problem is overblown by the tech video reviewer population that regularly does extremely intensive workloads.

> for the general consumer

linux does not apply here. General consumer doesn’t even know what linux is.

Are the think pads at $1000 crappy?

Why the restriction to laptops? I don't get why prosumers would marry themselves 24/7 to a single portable device, when their conflicting requirements vary by task and circumstances: portability, high performance, low energy usage, and low noise aren't permanent requirements.

Sure, there's no single device that has Apple's blend of attributes, but who need that in this age of VMs and broadband Internet? My 32-core HEDT workstation outperforms anything Apple branded. I have a Chromebook when I need to be unplugged (<10% or the time)

> My 32-core HEDT workstation outperforms anything Apple branded

Your high end hardware is not their target market / competition until you get into very purposeful tasks.

The market segment that exists for Macbook Pro is one where competitors battery life sucks, windows isnt the preferred OS, and high performance on a portable device on battery is beneficial. Its one where they have acceptable performance vs a dedicated desktop but remain portable and a good expected lifespan, as a portable.

> Your high end hardware is not their target market / competition until you get into very purposeful tasks.

Here's the kicker: it cost about the same as the highest end Macbook pro before the RAM madness.

> The market segment that exists one where battery life sucks, windows isnt the preferred OS, and some high performance on a portable device on battery is beneficial.

I agree the market exists, but think it's much smaller than it appears: most people do not work under these constraints most of the time; a cheap laptop + beefy desktop could do a better job in aggregate, wirh greater flexibility, especially for people who spend most of their time at the desk with their computer plugged in - which is most people.

I suspect the portability requirement is sometimes aspirational, similar to the people who buy trucks overestimating the number of times they'll need to cary stuff on the truck bed.

Thinking no one leaves their house to work is some serious projection dude.

> Thinking no one leaves their house to work is some serious projection dude

>> I don't get why prosumers would marry themselves 24/7 to a single portable device...

I quite clearly was talking about personal devices; are you in the habit of buying computers for your employers? Or perhaps you carry your personal laptop to work. I do neither, excuse my projection if you do either of those things.

Edit: are you kad that I have a remote job? Your tone is really salty for some reason.

> but who needs that?

I’m really happy with bringing my local workstation with me to a cafe, a coworking space, or on a trip. I love conveniently having one device for nearly everything, from AI fine-tuning to general development to gaming. And I love having a 12-hour battery life under normal use and USB-C charging. The screen is beautiful and great for watching movies on, too.

If you want one computing device, in total, a MacBook is a great choice. It’s overkill in most areas for most people, but it’s not deficient for anyone, and that matters a lot.

> I’m really happy with bringing my local workstation with me to a cafe, a coworking space, or on a trip

You can, with Tailscale! I had edited my original comment to remove how I occasionally[1] remote to the workstation, but I found out empirically that I typically don't do anything that needs more than 2 cores at a cafe - a $300 Chromebook or $100 second-hand laptop will do.

By all means, if the Macbook hits your sweet-spot of trade-offs, more power to you. Car brand A may have the quickest, most-fuel-efficient, all-wheel drive, convertible coupé, but there are other vehicle types. Perhaps a bicycle and an SUV is a better combination for some other people.

1. I'd say abuut once per year.

It's great that there is choice in the market isn't it?

Absolutely! I wasn't arguing for the elimination of choice.

> Why the restriction to laptops?

The last company that was willing to give me a non-laptop desktop... I left in 2005. (with one exception where I simply did not ask)

Not even if "1k EUR desktop + 200 EUR netbook" would have cost less than a beefy laptop.

No, I don't know why.

I prefer the Dell Rugged line or Thinkpads, since a single water droplet on the keyboard is enough to kill this laptop.

The last 3 dells at work, all high end precision/pro max machines, have lasted 9 months before failing completely. No thanks.

Did this happen to you? I was under the impression that a tiny spill was no longer fatal for Mac laptop keyboards. I've seen it happen a few times and be fine, but maybe the people I knew were just lucky?

???

I do dishes with an MBP next to the sink. I wouldn't put it under the faucet, but it's ~fine so far.

I wouldn't if I were you. Indeed there's a membrane that can keep drops away from electronics, but one big drop will find a way eventually. Doesn't even have to be a spill. Macs are infinitely fragile actually, there is zero effort spent on moisture or even dust intrusion.

> infinitely fragile

At last check my 2008 unibody still boots. It can vote in the fall.

The new Apple keyboard seems to fix itself. Once my command key had fallen down. It actually fixed itself somehow. I think it’s got whatever miracle metal snaps back into shape in there. And my kid has been using my old laptop and leaving crumbs; when a crumb gets under the key you feel it, but just press it in and destroy the crumb and the key is fine.

I remember the old keyboard because I got so sick of it I snapped the laptop in half in a rare fit of disgust (I was under a lot of stress at the time).

Overall, Apple blew it out of the park, and I happily forgive the earlier problems. Now I hope that Tahoe is just some kind of planned demolition phase before they introduce a totally new unsurpassable stable OS.

In a moment of brain fog I forgot laptops have a hinge, and I imagined you to be the strongest person in the world.

I hate thinkpads. I was a traveling consultant for nearly a decade. I had three thinkpads and two completely broke within 2 years. The third was ok but when replaced with a MacBook pro I became an apple convert.

Plus a touch pad that uses all available space and allows clicks on any part of the touchpad surface.

I am probably not a "general consumer", so a description like

"MacBook Air with M5 now comes standard with 512GB of storage — double that of the previous generation — and can be configured up to 4TB for the first time"

for me sounds terrible in a very bad sense for a computer around $1k, so I would have never bought something like this even many years ago.

To be fair, due to the huge increase in the price of SSDs and DRAM, a 512 GB SSD @ $1100 no longer sounds so bad as one year ago, but it is still bad.

If only it didn't have to run OSX.

Yeah, I am not a huge fan either. I would much prefer Linux or a very customized Windows.

For instance, the inability to write to NTFS filesystems without addons is annoying.

But I believe that for most users, the default MacOS experience is now much better than what Windows is with default settings.

On my Mac is is beachball… beachball… beachball… reboot… beachball… beachball… beachball.. you’d have thought somebody gets paid to make me watch the beachball for how much it happens. And this is a top of the line M4 mini with maxed out RAM and everything.

WTF are you doing with it? Mine doesn't do that (M4 Pro MBP / 24Gb)

Try to browse the web. Try to listen to music with Plexamp. Ordinary boring stuff but I think it is looking all over Slovakia for my AirPods or something so it can take them away from whatever machine I really want to use them on.

The feeling is exactly like the way it was with Windows circa 2005 when you expected your machine to go bad like cheese in a few months.

Are you sure yours isn't broken? My daughter has an M4 and she does hefty biochem stuff on it. No beachballing or anything. Same with my M4 Pro.

Also airpods move instantly here. No issues.

Something is seriously wrong with your machine or one of the persistent apps you are running.

Backup, reset to factory. Try using it, if it’s fixed, try restoring. If it’s not fixed it’s defective in some way.

If it’s broken only after you restore, manually import your data and install apps one at a time making sure nothing breaks before installing the next.

I had forgotten that mac has a beachball cursor. Something’s wrong on your macbook. (M4 max here)

What am I supposed to do, drive 300 miles to the nearest Genius Bar?

What would you do if your non-Apple computer was having performance issues?

I'd say this. I haven't had a Windows desktop computer with serious problems since 2007.

I had a long string of Windows laptops that were basically OK from maybe 2013 to 2023 except for problems with USB that got progressively worse over time (for each machine.) I think some of them were were real hardware problems but I think also the USB 3 spec doesn't guarantee that you can plug in very many devices and have it work, it depends on the PCIe architecture inside the machine. That "ding" sound when a USB device disconnects from windows has traumatized me and I've turned it off anywhere where I can because it is like a gunshot to a Vietnam vet.

I found very little literature about other Windows laptops users facing these problems but endless posts by AppleCare frequent fliers who seem to spend their lives at the Genius Bar and getting their old defective laptops replaced with new defective laptops, I think Windows users just expect it to be all screwed up.

For a long time Windows has struggled with processes that suck down a lot of resources at boot time. At home it is things that do software updates and saturate my 2x20Mbps internet connection. At work it is the backup program that saturates my Ethernet.

I had a run of I think 4 laptops that I never paid for. I bought a spendy windows surfacebook back in the day, and opted for the extended warranty. The screen went out about a week before the warranty expired, they couldn't replace the screen, and so refunded me the entire purchase price, plus the cost of the warranty... which then went to the next laptop.

That cycle repeated itself either two or three more times, up to today, and my current laptop is I think going to be the one that finally last long enough that I'll have to actually pay for my next upgrade.

> I haven't had a Windows desktop computer with serious problems since 2007.

In roughly the last decade, I've had motherboards fail on me, drives fail on me, PSU fans have issues with the bearings (rattle even when it works), front USB headers not working, SATA SSDs overheat and fry themselves, HDDs fail, separate USB ports get fried, overheating issues, multi-GPU issues (that one's on me, OSes struggle with supporting those), sometimes systems even having bad performance like back when I had a Ryzen 5 4500 and Intel Arc A580 where games would run with low 1% lows BUT nothing would show up as the bottleneck in any monitoring program ever, I've had Windows bootloader freak out across updates, sometimes updates in the OS render themselves not installable for months, sometimes graphics drivers (AMD and Intel) having issues, especially with VR and so much more stuff.

I like to think that I have particularly bad luck and not high enough quality parts and sometimes just pretty jank setups due to the state of my wallet. I've also had laptops fall apart and phone batteries turn into pillows, so go figure. Also regular Debian/Ubuntu updates sometimes bringing down my homelab servers that also run on consumer hardware, so maybe it's definitely got something to do with a lack of luck.

Less so with higher quality parts and machines, like most of the ThinkPads I've owned have been pretty good and my current M1 MacBook Air is still okay (really good note taking machine for being on the move) and same for my iPhone SE, despite the OSes feeling kinda odd. Doesn't really condemn any individual setup in my eyes - as far as I'm concerned, they all suck to some degree and everything that can go wrong sooner or later will, that's just the way it is.

That said, I welcome more (relatively) affordable hardware with decent build quality - ofc running Linux distros or whatever else one desires on them would be nice too, as would more repairability.

Debug it? Swap some components? Good luck with that on that shiny closed box.

What have you tried?

Mostly getting stuff done on the Windows machine in the next room or playing music off a different stereo or playing music on cassette tape or minidisc on the same stereo, etc. It's easier to fall back to a world of 20th century electronics where latency is imperceptible than it is to dive into a world of third-party apps that were all designed around somebody's inscrutable KPIs but didn't consider at all my convenience or inconvenience. Probably it is Creative Cloud updating or some software for the mouse or some kind of crap and if I sat in front of the machine for 30 minutes it might settle down but it's rare that I sit in front of it for 30 minutes. It used to be that kind of thing wrecked the Windows experience but over a long period of time Microsoft did a lot of work to balance to load of startup processes and mostly you don't feel it.

My wife browses the web a lot on that Mac, she hasn't complained since I installed Firefox + uBlock Origin but maybe she expects it to be slow.

My 128GB RAM M3 Max had logic board replaced 3x and I am still getting beachball alongside screen falling apart in blocks... There is something wrong with their firmware, especially when you are switching between multiple users often.

I think user switching is part of the problem in my case.

one other thing to check is if you installed any kernel extensions...inside Apple engineering, folks with kernel extensions could get bizarre errors since the quality of them could screw up stability with all sorts of symptoms.

kextstat | grep -v com.apple

would show anything _maybe_ troublesome, but not guaranteed related.

In my case no kernel extensions. Every few days the computer freezes with a beachball and/or screen starts falling apart in large blocks randomly shuffling around the screen and I need to power it off. The first logicboard also added a bunch of pink noise in a few clusters all over the screen. Whenever I got close to freeze my power charging beeps were getting more and more frequent up to around 1 beep per 3 seconds with USB charger in (the beep when you insert power adapter into USB port).

definitely unusual, sounds like hardware issue (as someone else mentioned)

How many Electron apps are you running?

Base m4 Mac mini. Only beach balling is when I saturate 16GB with compiles and builds. That thing of yours is a lemon.

Lemons do happen with Apple Silicon.

I had a Mac Studio that would kernel panic on a semi-weekly basis. Apple Care put me through the reinstall OS / remove all external devices tap-dance for weeks, insisting that hardware was the last thing to suspect - before Apple Silicon, kernel panics were almost always hardware, particularly RAM.

Ultimately I bought another Studio and swapped it in - kernel panics went away. With that evidence, Apple acknowledged the problem and exchanged my Studio for another one from the factory. I returned the swap unit within the 30 day window, so it didn't cost me anything but annoyance.

Needing to shell out... what? 2000 bucks to prove Apple Support they were wrong seems a very, very bad sign for that Support. Even if you got them back.

My problem was simply chrome so I switched to brave.

I've had 2 macs over the past ~10 years.

* My MacMini was constantly beachballing and, unfortunately, it took me a long time to realize that there was a problem with the device.

* I now have a 2023 MBP that screams like a "Formula Un" racing car.

I suspect you have a faulty device.

edit: Just saw that you live far away from an Apple store. I imagine you could mail it in for some type of service, but obviously, that's not optimal if you have no immediate replacement.

I use an M4 air with maxed out RAM for software development and it has no issues.

I think you might have a bad one. See if support will do anything for you this is not normal.

I’ll add that MacOS is crammed with spammy ads for Apple Music and other services I don’t want. To be fair somebody wants Apple Music whereas the Microsoft versions of those things are completely unwanted.

Ads and nags in the Windows World are drawn using the same HTML-based technology that has replaced Windows native apps since Windows 8, the ads and nags in MacOS are the 2025 anti-antialiased retreads of the 1999 MacOS X imitations of the modal dialogs from 1984 MacOS classic. It’s sad. When I set up a new Mac for my wife she was furious at how ad infested it was, especially to browse the web with Safari and if you want to add an ad blocked you need an Apple Account which is something she’s done without using macs for 20+ years.

Just wait til she jumps on a windows 11 device!

But I do agree with you. Thankfully it is minimal relative to windows.

First thing I do with a Win 11 install is ask Copilot how to turn all the crap off. ;-)

2nd thing to do is install and dual boot linux :D

Just install Windows IoT LTSC. Zero ads.

Tell that to your mum /. Family member who’s remote. Let me know how that goes

Eventually Asahi will catch up... if Apple doesn't turn around and purposely make it harder, hopefully we didn't just get lucky they were feeling "benevolent" with earlier M-series.

I believe they'll make it easier, actually. With this hardware at these prices, if they offered BootCamp again for Linux and Windows, they'd basically own the market almost overnight.

Fully agree. I used to have a company issued MBP M3 Pro, and when I switched roles I got myself base M4 Air. Can't complain at all in the past year, I do feel throttling at times when running longer tasks, but for 99% of the time I don't feel I need anything better.

And I do work as a software developer, so anyone doing lighter usage not in this camp will feel the same.

M5 Air should be pretty much the same.

I have an M4 air. It’s a nice machine, but I do miss the non-reflective screen of my earlier Asus zenbook (similar size, weight, fanless, decent ergonomics, matte screen, but bog slow).

It seems the M5 air still has non non-reflective screen option, which is very unfortunate.

Heavier than competing 14in laptops. Just okay res display. Low refresh rate. No oled or mini led. Basically unrepairable.

There are reasons the MacBook pro exists. The air is a nice machine but there are definitely trade-off.

How do you know there's no PWM flicker? Even my M3 Pro with its supposed 10khz backlight burns my eyes, I had to get rid of it. Is this display not oled?

MacBook Air has an IPS display with no flickering, see https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Air-15-M4-review...

Recent Pros have miniLED with high freq PWM.

Oh damn, that's awesome!

There’s still temporal dithering.

It can be disabled but it doesn’t seem to help.

https://github.com/aiaf/Stillcolor

> no Microsoft Windows annoyances, ads, bloatware, broken stuff all the time

MacOS absolutely has annoyances, ads, and broken stuff all the time.

When macOS shows an ad, it is sometimes harder to get rid of or disable than the ads built into Windows. For example, the ads to upgrade iCloud to a paid account.

I regularly run into bugs in macOS, both visual/cosmetic and functional, some of which have existed for multiple major versions with no fix.

Agree. I use both windows and mac daily, and I don't think Mac is much better in terms of annoyances and bugs.

I got an excellent Windows gaming laptop for $900 USD. It has a beautiful 17" 144hz glare-resistant display, not an awful glossy screen that might as well be a mirror in lit environment. The workmanship is great and the keyboard has a full numpad and utility keys. It came with a 1TB SSD and 16GB ram, both of which I doubled with additional parts after the fact for about $120. It would cost +$600 to reach 2TB SSD and +$400 per 16GB to extend the Macbook Air. Even at the current bullshit 500% inflated RAM prices, it would only cost $200 for +16GB on a Windows laptop. Given that 16GB is a complete non-starter for a $1.1k laptop in the world of programmers who only know how to use Electron, the Macbook Air is actually just garbage for price.

If money is no object to you, you can pay a >$1k premium for a 13" 60hz display if you care about fan noise under load or battery life. I personally don't mind either of those things, and will gladly enjoy my laptop with vastly superior specs in all other regards for half the price.

Windows has its problems, but they are fixable. You can hack and modify Windows all you want to get rid of the BS. I'll take that over an OS that believes the manufacturer owns the machine rather than the user, any day.

Yup. This a 1TB disk (how I’d configure it) and max out the ram is what I’d get.

Is it easy to install linux on them?

Asahi only supports M2 I think, so no.

Even though I'm done with apple, every time I use a non-apple laptop I think "this is a shit trackpad".

-can't boot linux

No thanks.

"it has no annoying fans"

I beg to differ ;)

That it has no fans or the fans are annoying?

I think they’re talking about Apple fans, not laptop fans

They're making a joke using the double meaning of the word fans

what is this, slashdot? 

was it ever not?

Wise guy. That said, upvoted for cleverness.

Hey!… no yeah you’re right.

Shots fired!

Credit where credit is due

Apple makes great hardware. I kind of knew this when I was 12 and I had an Apple IIc. I'm 52 now.

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