Comment by Shivetya | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Shivetya | Hacker News Reader

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I am looking to pick up a Nexus 7 this week to evaluate its gift potential. There are two areas where it falls behind the iPad mini for me. First is the Apple App store appears to be in much better shape. I can get around that pretty easily, the second is the lack of back facing camera.

The reason the second issue stands out is that I would like to gift these to my niece and nephew. When using my iPad or their parents smart phones they love to use the camera to take pictures. So I am was a bit disappointed over the omission.

The main point in the Nexus 7's favor for me is its price. So the make or break will be software, namely some learning apps and games.

I would prefer to avoid buying an Apple product; I own many; based on their emphasis on lawsuits recently but they do have some features on their tablet that are hard to pass up and the old adage reworded for our age probably holds true, no one will be disappointed getting an iPad for Christmas. (the old adage of no one was fired for buying IBM)

As someone who owns both an iPad and Nexus 7 - they're both great devices. But, if you're looking for "learning apps and games" - the iOS App Store wins, hands down. The Android store is definitely growing with respect to games... but I've found the quality of "learning" apps to be quite low on Android. I'm not sure why, and I'm sure it will get better.

If you're looking for "learning" apps for kids aged 2 - 14, I'd stick with iOS devices (for now).

Depends on the age. For ages 10+ the Android SDK is a pretty awesome "learning" app, and it's free.

He never said "learning to program" app. Just learning apps in general.

The SDK is for Windows / Mac / Linux. Is he buying them a PC too?

Terminal IDE allows Android development on Android devices:

http://www.spartacusrex.com/terminalide.htm

If you really want something that only requires the device, the Android Scripting Environment is pretty awesome, and it comes with a dozen examples for things like controlling Android's speech synthesizer which a kid could have a lot of fun playing around with.

http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/

AIDE as well gives you a complete IDE on the device https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui

Sorry. You propose teaching your child how to learn using Java and one of the worst SDKs for a long time ?

Hey, some people learned programming with BASIC on Z80...

I am not opposed at all to children learning to program.

Just that there are much better choices than Java/Android SDK.

It depends on what are your preferences, choose what you like.

Agreed. If you're coming from an iOS background, the lack of good apps on Android will frustrate you.

What are the iOS apps that you feel are lacking in Android? Honest question, not flamebait. Heck, maybe there's a startup opportunity there :)

iPhoto, iMovie, Garageband, Paper, music apps e.g. AniMoog, Newspaper apps, Diet Coda. Those are just a few I use. But seriously EVERY tablet app will be better on iOS.

Why ? Because Apple/community encourages developers to rethink the tablet experience. Android encourages them to simply scale.

I come from an iOS background (my last phone was an iPhone 4, my last tablet was an iPad 2; now a Galaxy Nexus and Nexus 7) and am not frustrated in the least by "a lack of good apps."

I'm pretty happy with everything on my phone: the Google apps are great, the Kindle app is completely fine, AndChat, Grooveshark, Songbird, a bunch of emulators for games...all works just fine. Some apps don't look great on the tablet, but I use the tablet almost exclusively for Kindle and ePub reading (works fine) and some web browsing (ditto).

What do you use for mail?

I've tried many mail apps for my Android tablet, and none comes close to the mail app for iOS. The one exception is the Gmail app -- but I don't use gmail (ironically, for lock-in reasons).

I use the Gmail app and it is fantastic. Best mail app I've ever used on any device or computer.

I dupe all my email from my Google Apps accounts to a local server, so it's not a big deal for me.

Without wanting to inject too hyperbolic a representation of Apple. Please don't buy kids iOS devices. There's nothing wrong from an application or usability perspective, it's just that restricting them to an extremely closed platform is likely to have future ramifications.

Could you substantiate, or even just explain, that in some way?

My take would be that children change so much and so quickly that they're very hard to lock into a device or a platform. The things they cared about last week they don't care about next week which means that their old apps are largely irrelevant to them, and their brains are so adaptable the learning curve on a new device is no barrier at all.

The kids down the road from me have iPod Touches, the ones with phones have a BlackBerry and an HTC Android phone respectively, they share the family iPad and both have or use Windows 7 PCs. They move between these without a second thought depending on what they're doing, what's nearest, their mood or who the hell knows what other reason.

Let children choose what they want to be interested in and encourage it without pushing any prejudices you may have on them. This is technology - how much of what we thought was a big deal 10 years ago remotely matters today? Anyone still fretting about Microsoft's monopolistic attempts to take over the internet?

> My take would be that children change so much and so quickly that they're very hard to lock into a device or a platform. The things they cared about last week they don't care about next week which means that their old apps are largely irrelevant to them, and their brains are so adaptable the learning curve on a new device is no barrier at all.

I am not arguing from an ideological perspective. I am not concerned that their use will teach them soley the iOS way of working. I am concerned about actual lock in.

Apple spends a lot of money on ensuring that their flagship functions (iMessage, AirPlay, Maps etc) are strictly available only on their hardware or through licensed solutions.

Having all of your music in iTunes/iCloud, having most of your friends on iMessage, owning physical hardware with only iDevice connectors or software support etc. These are the future ramifications I am concerned about.

  > owning physical hardware with only iDevice connectors

I don't think that this is a concern for kids aged 2 - 14.

I'm sure it isn't, but I am talking about concerns from a parental point of view.

iMessage sends and receives text messages. That's a pretty weak lock in - there pretty much isn't a mobile phone made that it can't interoperate with going back a decade or so.

Maps, I'm curious as to how this is a lock in, or who it is who is desperate to get Apple maps on their non-iOS device but I'm sure as this is an Apple issue you'll be able to point me at where I can get the great official Android Maps / Navigation app for my Kindle Fire then? Oh yeah, it's official licensees only.

And the version of BlackBerry messenger for iOS? Or Android?

And I can access Microsoft Windows Phone Rooms from Android can I?

Specific functionality offering competitive advantage are only ever shared by people when it's in their interest. That's not an Apple specific issue, you'll see the same with pretty much every device.

And physical hardware connectors - Micro-USB as a standard for charging is fine but the fact that they both have a Micro USB port doesn't mean that you can use Android peripherals other than a charger with a BlackBerry or Nokia Lumia.

And for chargers - kids don't need dozens of chargers, in most cases the one in the box will be fine. If not $10 on eBay will get you another one - hardly a massive issue when we're talking about phones generally costing hundreds of dollars.

The reality is that device change has always had barriers but Apple's don't seem to me to be significantly worse that anyone elses.

Apple's are significantly worse, however. Apple does things like use non-standard screws and connectors. They also like to glue in batteries. Basically they make the machine so that it can't be easily repaired or replaced by a qualified technician. They also reduce the ability to recycle certain components by gluing them to the case.

I'm a longtime Apple technician and things started going downhill when the iMac came out. The Apple machine is pretty on the outside. Perfect for the folks that buy them.

> Apple does things like use non-standard screws and connectors.

Apple does use standard screws. They're just Torx or tamper resistant Torx.

You can buy the screwdrivers at most home repair shops, even for the tamper resistant ones.

While they're not that common, they're definitely standard screws.

We're talking about tablets. Can you tell me which of the major tablets is user serviceable?

No, we're not. I referred to Apple generically in my post.

I also won't tell you which major tablet is user serviceable. Also, why would it need to be major? Is this a quiz?

Apologies, when you posted a reply to a post discussing iOS devices I thought you'd be talking about iOS devices.

My bad.

Ridiculous. Androids are not like Apple IIs where a young kid can figure out to hack on them; in practice very young kids have absolutely no means of caring about whether their phone is "open" or not. The kind of openness provided by Android means absolutely nothing to a kid.

Please read my comment here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4723333

I am not arguing that Android in-particular is superior, just that the ability to choose the vendor of your device is a significant freedom that can be lost.

I appreciate that Android always has Google as a vendor somewhere in the chain, and I'd like to see variety there too. It's possible to use App based ecosystems and respect everyone's rights at the same time.

I favour an independent app store where the majority of the computing and bandwidth infrastructure is taken up by the developer. This reduces the cost of the app store so they can operate without mandatory contributions and as a result permits unlimited flexibility.

But Android does have Google.

And Google has been engaging in anticompetitive/illegal behaviour (FRAND patents), abusing privacy (Safari DNT) and capitulating over human rights (China). All the while basing their whole business on selling advertising.

For me Google sounds like the worst company to be sharing your children's data with. No ?

You indict Google as if they were the only offender, however more significant anticompetitive, privacy infringing or capitulation could be pointed out of all of their competitors.

Yes, Google are involved in most Android devices. They don't however mandate any dominance over the device. Using an Android device without Google's apps is not only plausible, but common.

Given that all companies are evil (and they certainly all are if you cherry pick enough evidence), it seems reasonable to pick the most open, unlocked ecosystem so that at least you have the freedom to control your exposure to it, leave the system and exercise your free will.

The thing I've never understood about this is I have that freedom with an Apple device. If I find that I'm being constrained in ways I don't like, I simply sell it and buy something else.

Absolute worst case (which is massively unlikely) I'm a few hundred dollars down (which I can afford). Realistically any unpleasant constraints would come in gradually and I'd just buy a non-Apple phone at the point I would have upgraded my iPhone and I'm not even financially down.

How am I constrained in any real, meaningful sense?

Suppose you've bough an iMac because iTunes works much better on iOS. Now you're down a few thousand dollars.

That bunch of applications on the Apple Store that gets bigger and bigger? They add up. You'll clench your teeth and try to ignore the constrains.

With Google you go here http://www.dataliberation.org/ and get everything out. Hell, you have the source for android, you can build your own system http://www.idroidproject.org/ and use your apps as well.

Well, for starters, if money is no object then everybody is free. It kind of defeats the whole point of the argument to take such an important constraint away and then pose the question "how am I constrained?". Keep in mind that Apple's whole ecosystem is closed, not just their devices. I can't read their iBooks on my Android tablet, play their games on anything but Apple hardware, etc. Even the connector is patented to control every single digital bit that travels to and from the device. So in 10 years from now you might be up for much more than "hundreds" but thousands or tens of thousands if you have accumulated your lifetime library of content there.

But more seriously, your solution works only as long as there is "something else". So you're predicating the whole thing on the fact that there's an external entity out there for you to flee to. The problem is that we're moving headlong into a dystopian future where there simply isn't any ecosystem left where you can go. The least worst option at the moment is Android because it allows side loading and is open source so if Google turns evil enough you can be sure that someone else will come in and fork it to compete with them (you can argue that already happened). You can even create your own builds and deploy them to your phone if necessary. Now I'm not advocating any such extreme tin-foil type things in reality, but I do think it's vitally important we preserve at least the ability or freedom for these options to occur, because they keep all the other players honest.

Bias is radiating so much from your posts that I feel like I'm going to have a sunburn

Not from a hardware perspective definitely. But when a kid's interest in software is piqued at say, 9 or 10, would you rather that he/she be using an open source OS that encourages tinkering or a beautiful black box?

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/506466/given-tablets-bu...

"“I thought the kids would play with the boxes. Within four minutes, one kid not only opened the box, found the on-off switch … powered it up. Within five days, they were using 47 apps per child, per day. Within two weeks, they were singing ABC songs in the village, and within five months, they had hacked Android,” Negroponte said. “Some idiot in our organization or in the Media Lab had disabled the camera, and they figured out the camera, and had hacked Android.”"

You are joking right? the first thing I did when I got a palm pilot when I was kid was look everywhere for hacks and apps to do stuff that it couldn't do out of the box.

If I were a kid today the first thing I would do is jailbreak my iPad, a process waaaaay easier than getting on the internet and finding apps for Palm before the age of filesharing.

Of course the difference being that I didn't lose the warranty on my Palm pilot for not using official software, but I would for jailbreaking my iPad.

Playing farmville all day does not a hacker make, but coding your own apps? tweaking the OS? that's a great start, too bad first you have to convince your parents of letting you void the warranty on a $500 device.

Good luck with that.

How old are your niece and nephew?

One area Apple have a significant advantage is with kids who've grown up with iPod Touches (or iPods Touch for the pedants) and are therefore familiar with iOS and the apps available on the app store.

If I were looking for a present (a very generous present I might add) for kids between 8 and 18, I'd be hyper aware that they may have opinions on what they want and be guided by that.

My six year old can switch between my Transformer tablet and my wife's iPhone without even blinking an eye. Kids tend to not be set in their ways like us old people.

Agree with that (have actually just posted similarly above), I was more thinking if all their friends are making movies with iMovie or whatever, that's what they'll want to be doing.

The learning curve is nothing at that age.

Niece and nephew are seven and nice respectively. I would like to encourage them to use the devices for something other than games. Having no children of my own I am not even sure where to begin when it comes to app selection.

Being children their interests do change often but helping them in their schooling, something that is self directed so when mom isn't around to encourage them the software itself is engaging enough to do so.

So I am up for recommendations. I am more than willing to load up apps for whichever tablet I give them and in fact would be much happier if I could deliver them experience out of the box.

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