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Comment by julianozen | Hacker News Reader

There is missing a solution.

Give our personal devices have the ability to verify our age and identity securely and store on device like they do our fingerprint or face data.

Services that need access only verify it cryptographically. So my iPhone can confirm I’m over 21 for my DoorDash app in the same way it stores my biometric data.

The challenge here is the adoption of these encryption services and whether companies can rely on devices for that for compliance without having to cut off service for those without it set up.

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The real problem with this is that the ultimate objective isn't age verification, it's complete de-anonymization. I think different groups want this for different reasons, but the simple reality is that minimizing the identify information transferred around is antithetical to their goals.

If we create age verification tools with strong privacy protections that solve the problems they raise, we can can call their bluff.

If we fight every and any solution, we may end up with their solution, becauase they build it. We end up in the position of saying "don't use the thing they built" without offering alternatives. I'd rather be saying "use whatbwe built, ita is better."

Google/Apple already know where you and your mistress live. In case you pay for any service, they've got your identity too. Ever had a single shipment confirmation to your address come to your mail? They know who you are.

The hardware providers already have the information. You only need to make them reveal it to 3rd parties.

We should be banning groups from collecting age related information, and not requiring it. And we definitely should not be forcing companies to share that information with third parties.

Is it though? Do you have any proof that is the case?

I think this is what my German electronic ID card does. The card connects to an app on my phone via NFC, a service can cryptographically verify a claim about my age, and no additional info is leaked to the service provider or the government.

But that doesn't verify that the person using the ID is the person that it was issued to.

Its better than what we have now. Maybe using the ID could require a PIN code if we wanted to enhance security.

That's already the case for the German Id, you need a PIN to do anything online with it.

I think this is actually the correct way to move forward.

We should be able to verify facts about people on the internet without compromising personal data. Giving platforms the ability to select specific demographics will, in my view, make the web a better place. It doesn’t just let us age restrict certain platforms, but can also make them more authentic. I think it’s really important to be able to know some things to be true about users, simply to avoid foreign election interference via trolling, preventing scams and so much more.

With this, enforcement would also be increasingly easy: Platforms just have to prove that they’re using this method, e.g. via audit.

ISO/IEC 18013-5 (Personal identification — ISO-compliant driving licence — Part 5: Mobile driving licence (mDL) application) is a potential solution for this. https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/en/#iso:std:iso-iec:18013:-5:ed-1...

It would allow someone with an mDL on their device to present only their age instead of other identifying information.

Yes. I think it’s this + policy.

And that your iPhone and other devices become more restrictive if this is not implemented.

I presume most devices in the world do not have a solution to this (desktop windows computer for instance).

I’m not sure if it’s a good idea for like every porn website in the world to require a secret enclave to work. But this sounds better to me than storing users photo ids in an s3 bucket

So now I'm not allowed to choose what software runs on my personal computing device with a cellular module?

The solution has always been there: Assume everybody is an adult.

The only reasonable way to deal with children on the Internet is to treat Internet access like access to alcohol/drugs. There is no need for children to access the Internet full stop.

Internet is a network in which everything can connect to everything, and every connected machine can run clients, servers, p2p nodes and what not. Controlling every possible endpoint your child might connect to is not feasible. Shutting the entire network down because "won't somebody please think of the children" is not acceptable.

And, don't let them trick you. This is the endgoal. An unprecedented level of control over the flow of information.

So you would deny children the greatest source of knowledge in the history? I have learned math and programming thanks to unlimited access to the web and would not be where I am without it.

>I would not be where I am without it

First of all, you cannot know that, since plenty of people before you learnt that stuff from libraries.

>So you would deny children the greatest source of knowledge in the history?

Yes, because other sources of knowledge exist and are much more appropriate for children. It is also the greatest source of despicable stuff in history. When you turn 18, have fun exploring the world wide web.

>So you would deny children the greatest source of knowledge in the history?

Absolutely.

This is much better than destroying "the greatest source of knowledge in the history" to make it safe for kids.

This is a false dichotomy. We do not need to do neither. The parents are responsible to keep their children safe on the internet.

This kind of solution couldn't come soon enough. It will also enable us to verify humanity and have bot-free spaces on social media again. I wrote about this here: https://blog.picheta.me/post/the-future-of-social-media-is-h...

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