Comment by SV_BubbleTime | Hacker News Reader

Comment by SV_BubbleTime | Hacker News Reader

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I worked with a guy from sg. He gave me tips for when I went to visit. He hooked me up with a family member that showed me the backend a bit.

The country effectively runs on a slave class. You must drive a new vehicle under 5 years old, and the license just to buy a car was $90,000 or so. This means an entire class of people that will be taking the bus to do your laundry and clean your house for the rest of their lives and likely their kids lives.

The guy took me around to construction sites. The Indonesian and Malaysian workers were some of the most brave or stupid workers I’ve ever seen. I saw a guy install a window in a three story building by effectively free climbing from the outside half a flight up starting on the third floor, from the outside of the building. No harness, no ropes, just him out there hanging and pushing against a nook with his work boots. The SG contractor had helmet, hi-vis, steel toed, carhart, radio, clipboards etc.

Singapore is an amazing place. It’s like, a rorschach test kind of. Like everyone sees something different there.

I noticed things that trip. However… I was able to enjoy the botanical gardens and Marina Bay Sands rooftop like the other tourists… fond memories, but they have a backdrop that reality is only thinly hidden there.

I agree with you that the migrant workers are effectively a serf class. However, I think it's fine that the SG government severely discourages owning a car. It's a small island with lots of people, there would be gridlock if everyone wanted their own car. The public transportation system is amazing and works well.

I promise you do not need to explain scarcity to me :) the issue is that the disparity between I can’t afford a car, and I will never be able to afford a car is vast.

The slave class exist to do nothing but serve (be on the street at 2300, it’s poor people running power washers everywhere you go).

The entire country runs on Chinese goods in shipping containers going to the US. It’s a tax state.

Don’t get me wrong, unique place, I loved it. But ya, not what it seems, lah.

> The entire country runs on Chinese goods in shipping containers going to the US. It’s a tax state.

If that's true: tell me, why do people in the US or China pay for an expensive transit in Singapore?

> (be on the street at 2300, it’s poor people running power washers everywhere you go).

What?

If you go out into the street at 11pm you'll see poor people running power washers everywhere you go

I've lived here since 2017. I have yet to see the poor people running power washers at night.

Which neighbourhood do you suggest I visit for this spectacle?

By the way I'm not GP, I just wanted to clarify what they said (or attempted to). Apologies.

No worries. I understood perfectly well what they said. I just couldn't believe they said something so stupid.

> disparity between I can’t afford a car, and I will never be able to afford a car is vast

There's no disparity. Either way you're not going to own a car any time soon.

You're not freer when the legal system prevents you to do something because you don't have enough money than when the legal system prevents you from doing that thing for other reasons.

> I agree with you that the migrant workers are effectively a serf class.

Sounds like the Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics? Or 'out of sight, out of mind'?

not everyone has the same ethics or even subscribes to that

Exactly, some people think 'out of sight, out of mind' is great ethics! See https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/QXpxioWSQcNuNnNTy/...

no, more precisely, they can actively think about it and still believe it's not an issue. For example they can justify that the migrant workers are given a choice etc or it's better than some of their alternative.

If it's not clear: that's pretty close to what I believe, yes.

Calling the opposite position 'out of sight, out of mind' or 'The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics' kind of gives my disdain for it away, I thought?

Exactly this.

The country's progress and management is extremely good, however it's enabled mostly by exploitation of migrant workers and various kind of white collar crimes (ie, facilitating business for illegal or sanctionned entities - cf Nvidia chips for China for example)

I think specifically for example of getting Nvidia chips to China, many Singaporeans would say that that is only illegal because the US deems it so. There is no moral reason.

Agree, the word crime was too strong. It's more of a grey zone.

What's exploitation?

I guess you prefer poor people stay in their poor countries where you don't have to look at them? Allowing migrant workers is a win-win arrangement, and I wish we'd do more of that.

With the MRT not having a car is not bad. Paying 100K SGD for a Certificate of Entitlement (10 year car registration) is definitely a rich person move. Good point on the underclass and labor conditions.

Btw, that price for the Certificate of Entitlement is set by auction. The government only sets the total volume of CoE.

"Indonesian and Malaysian workers". Sounds like you never actually visited construction sites. Most of the workers ive come accross are from Bangladesh, India and China. Malaysian and indonesian immigrants tend to be better off than them.

> The country effectively runs on a slave class.

I really wish people would not throw this word around so casually, it is disrespectful to the many millions of people over the course of human history (and today!) who were forced under threat of violence or death to labour without remuneration.

Of course Singapore's migrant worker system is open to criticism, but every single one of those workers can resign tomorrow and get a free plane ticket home, and the same applies to domestic helpers as well.

Migrant workers work in Singapore because it's their most rational economic choice. They pay no income tax, room and board is provided and the wages are sufficient to house, feed and educate their family back home, almost certainly to a better standard than would otherwise be possible had they remained in their home country.

tl;dr migrant workers have agency!

The comment about cars is unintentionally hilarious. “A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation.” and the public transportation in Singapore is very good indeed.

The argument against allowing migrant workers seems to boil down mostly to 'out of sight, out of mind'. Or in more sophisticated terms: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics.

See https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/QXpxioWSQcNuNnNTy/...

Interesting article, and thanks for the introduction to "philosophy bro". I think the Copenhagen interpretation of Ethics is really a misnomer. In quantum physics, a particle can exist in a superposition of states until you observe it. The ethical equivalent would be "a problem can be viewed as moral or amoral until you observe it", which is not really what the author is explaining. Additionally, I think the problem the author describes mostly boils down to how one interprets the intention behind each example. For instance: paying a homeless person $20 a day (plus donations) can be viewed as charitable (a homeless person gets to earn money and be treated as a human being) or exploitative (you underpay a worker). Same with the price surging: you can view it as a incentive for drivers to compensate for demands or price gouging. I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but that these are the opposed views are coexisting in different people's head. For this, it would make more sense to call this scenario a "Reverse Copenhagen interpretation" where one observation lead to two coexisting interpretations.

There are different degrees and institutions of slavery, and Frederick Douglass, the abolitionist and former chattel slave himself, had this to say[1] about that sentiment:

> The abolitionist and former slave Frederick Douglass initially declared "now I am my own master", upon taking a paying job. However, later in life he concluded to the contrary, saying "experience demonstrates that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other"

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery#History

Slave class? What?

> You must drive a new vehicle under 5 years old, [..]

No? And no one is forced to drive anything. I don't own a car.

> no one is forced to drive anything. I don't own a car.

Cut him some slack, it is hard for an American to imagine anybody living without a car.

In NYC it's hard to imagine owning a car. Everywhere else it's hard to imagine not owning one.

> You must drive a new vehicle under 5 years old, and the license just to buy a car was $90,000 or so.

I don't understand this. At all. Are people forced to buy cars every 5 years?

No, the majority of people use something a lot of Americans struggle with "Public transport".

The MRT and bus system in Singapore is great for getting around to the point that you don't need a car, but if you Want one it must be new and you have to pay for a license as road space and parking space are physically limited.

Ah, then that comment is just silly.

Singapore is a small and dense island, poor people fare better without cars there. Cars are very expensive, even old, beat up cars. They're either expensive for the owner or for society or both.

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