Hacker News Reader

Comment by somenameforme | Hacker News Reader

It also illustrates what a real insurrection attempt looks like. [1] He declared martial law, suspended and prevented their Congress equivalent from meeting (and directed the military to enforce such), ordered the immediate arrest of numerous high level politicians with a goal of arresting hundreds, issued a declaration that all media and publications had to be approved before publication, ordered the power+water for a news broadcaster be cut, and much more.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_South_Korean_martial_law_...

View on HN

Just to be clear, ordering a violent mob thousands strong to march on the capitol and "fight like hell" to interfere with the peaceful transition of power is also what a real insurrection attempt looks like.

Innocent until proven guilty.

Legally, yes. But everything was well-documented and publicized. As sentient creatures we can use our own eyes, ears, and judgement to come to our own conclusions in advance or lieu of a formal court ruling.

I suggest you re-read the Constitution. The First Amendment protects people from any negative repercussions whatsoever resulting from their free exercise of certain kinds of speech.

This is such an absolutely wild and demonstrably incorrect interpretation, I can only assume it's satire

I forgot that satire was dead.

Or, alternatively, you're just bad at it.

Poe’s Law. Personally I thought that might be what you were doing, but I wasn’t sure.

According to the bipartisan House select committee that investigated the incident, the attack was the culmination of a plan by Trump to overturn the election.

Within 36 hours, five people died: including a police officer who died of a stroke a day after being assaulted by rioters and collapsing at the Capitol.

Many people were injured, including 174 police officers. Four officers who responded to the attack died by suicide within seven months. Damage caused by attackers exceeded $2.7 million. It is the only attempted coup d'état directed towards the Federal government in the history of the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capito...

It was an insurrection, and he should have been barred from rerunning by the 14th amendment, but come on with adding deaths to the event that were not the one dumbass chick.

It's even sillier after looking into it. Of the 4 people listed that died the same date as the insurrection attempt, 1 was shot (already mentioned), 1 died of overdosing on meth, and the other two both were over 50 and had heart attacks. Not to say being exceptionally out-of-shape or meth-addled has zero demographic connection to the riot, but...

First off, the majority of them were found guilty in court - https://web.archive.org/web/20240108135705/https://www.justi...

Also, for the rest of them that accepted a pardon, that also necessities an admission of guilt - https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/236/79/#89-90

So yes, they were guilty of insurrection even if they escaped punishment.

As does attempting to manipulate election officials to change the vote outcome. If not for one person rejecting this coercion the coup would have been successful.

I’m not suggesting things are as bad as a full on insurrection. But it’s not a great leap of imagination to compare the two either.

> He declared martial law

Trump has sent federal troops into states that voted against him.

He’s also frequently talked about “the enemy from within” to describe American citizens.

And then there’s ICE…

> suspended and prevented their Congress equivalent from meeting

Trump has shut down the government twice already.

The press just like to blame Democrats despite the fact that it’s the Republicans who are refusing to negotiate.

> ordered the immediate arrest of numerous high level politicians with a goal of arresting hundreds,

To be fair, Trump hasn’t gone that far (yet). But he has fired lots of people from government roles that should have been non-partisan and filled them with his own loyal supporters. Even when those people are clearly not qualified to be doing their new found appointments.

He’s also freed lots of criminals because they either supported him, or paid him.

> issued a declaration that all media and publications had to be approved before publication

Trump has been removing press from the White House and replacing them with publications that support him.

> ordered the power+water for a news broadcaster be cut

Trump hasn’t done that either. But he has sent the FCC to shutdown shows he dislikes. And sued the others into compliance.

The overreach of executive powers is very concerning, but those are more long term attempts to influence the public and policy makers through shady tactics.

The insurrection everyone is referring to is definitely Jan 6th, which it is laughable to compare to an actual insurrection attempt. A few thousand unarmed people waving signs and wearing costumes break into government buildings and take selfies? What would the next steps be that would end in them overthrowing elected leaders?

I think the thing that puts J6 in the "definitely an insurrection attempt" category is the fact that it happened while Congress was exercising its duty to formalize the electoral college vote. We don't have to reach for statistics about how many were armed or wearing costumes (a fact that seems immaterial in any case); the question is sufficiently answered by what they were attempting to stop.

I’ll reiterate the earlier poster’s question:

> What would the next steps be that would end in them overthrowing elected leaders?

Congresspeople either intimidated or emboldened into rejecting some or all of the state electors to annul the actual electoral result and declare Trump the 46th president. We know this was the outcome Donald Trump's wanted because he said so several times.

I assume the individuals that brought zip ties had more specific plans for the elected officials they didn't approve of.

It wasn't a well-planned insurrection but neither was Yong Suk Yeol's

It was explicitly an attempt to influence Pence or congress to not certify the election results, attempting to allow Trump to use his fake electors to change the results in his favor.

It was a naked attempt to change the outcome of the election. What are you not understanding about this?

So if someone emailed Pence and said they would stab him if he certified the election would that be an insurrection? They are attempting to influence him to change the result of the election.

Surely the level of organization and possibility of success need to be taken into consideration? Otherwise every moron with a social media account or a sign could be guilty of insurrection.

A single bot did not email him. They went 1000 strong in person, were armed, and people died.

They tried to seize the certificates ... if some quickwitted and brave staffers hadn't quickly spirited them away, they would have.

In 2016 there was an organized, and partially successful, effort to get 37 electoral voters to change their electoral vote to somebody other than whom they were pledged to vote - Trump. It was intended to change the result of the election by forcing a "contingent election", in which the House of Representatives would determine the President, owing to the esoteric nuances of US electoral law.

Would you consider this an insurrection? In your terms it was "a naked attempt to change the outcome of the election."

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_electors_in_the_2016...

Calling it partially successful when Clinton lost more electoral votes to faithless electors than Trump did and it had zero impact on the outcome of the election is interesting.

But no, because electors deciding how they cast their votes is a matter of state legislation, not federal, and it is a wildly different thing than the candidate himself trying to install fake electors.

The faithless electors were chosen as part of the political process, and the founders expressly stated that the electors having the freedom to cast their vote was part of the safeguard against mob rule by an uninformed electorate. Hamilton, for example, wrote extensively of this in the federalist papers. This is explicitly one of the reasons why we have the electoral college at all, instead of a popular vote. If anything, I wish they had had the foresight to codify it in the Constitution or Bill of Rights so that states could not prevent it from happening. They wrote extensively of what they wanted the EC to be but did not do enough to make reality match their expectations in a durable manner.

Meanwhile Trump explicitly worked to install a group of illegally selected electors while riling up a mob to attempt to put a halt to the certification.

Trying to compare electors casting their vote based on how the founding fathers envisioned the electoral college as working to a sitting president being involved in a coordinated effort to create and install fake electors, cause the certification of the election to fail by inciting a mob to storm the capitol, and oh, telling Georgia to "find me the votes" is absurd.

It doesn't matter the margin by which Clinton lost. The point of trying to turn the electors is that the US constitution requires a candidate receive a majority of electoral votes. If nobody does, then the House of Representatives gets to determine who becomes President. And they came far closer to overturning the election than some guys rioting around the Capitol did, since there was a viable path towards the goal.

Your perception of the electoral college is somewhat biased. The college itself serves a practical purpose - elections in the US are extremely decentralized by design. States can do pretty much whatever they want, only later constrained by various constitutional amendments. So when a state A gives you a number, that number does not necessarily mean the same thing as when state B does the same. The electoral college normalizes election results by requiring each state to convert their numbers into a common format. And instead of relying on the Federal government trying to deal with millions of votes, it's only 538.

Similarly, the scheme in support of Trump was not only not illegal, but even anticipated by the electoral count act which made it such that if the House/Senate disagreed with votes included or excluded by the Vice President, then they were free to overrule it by a simple majority vote. The VP's role was then later changed to a purely ceremonial one in a new law passed in 2022, largely to prevent this angle in the future.

And you're still trying to compare mechanisms that exist within the system and are codified with someone attempting to operate entirely outside of it. And no, they weren't far closer at achieving their goal - they didn't get anywhere near the number of required faithless electors and were never going to get anywhere near the required number of faithless electors. Meanwhile, attempting to delay or totally obstruct the certification allowed for several pathways that Trump and his team viewed as potentially viable. Hell, just convincing Raffensperger to do what Trump wanted him to do would have also gotten him most of the way there.

And yes, obviously part of the point of the EC is dealing with a smaller number of votes instead of every vote. None of that is a counterargument to what I said. Again, the founding fathers literally wrote about how faithless electors were a feature and not a bug in their eyes. There's a reason they had the 'Hamilton Electors' moniker.

What would you say is somebody operating entirely outside the system? When the system specifically included text for dealing with a controversy on how the VP counts the votes, it's rather literally within the system. And that was their big Hail Mary. Trump probably envisioned the Capitol being surrounded by thousands of protesters just chanting or whatnot to encourage Pence to do it.

He certainly would have foreseen at least some shenanigans, but that was probably unavoidable. And the protestors and rioters could have been trivially dispersed at any moment by the Capitol Police which not only has a force of thousands, but even has heavy equipment and gear enabling them to respond to even extreme things like an aerial attack on the Capitol. Instead they deployed a tiny fraction of their force with minimal equipment, and just watched things unfold, all while Twitter actively censored Trump saying things like:

- "Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!"

- "I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!"

As for the Electoral College, I am saying that you're taking a fringe view that was indeed genuinely held, but then inappropriately broadly applying it. Hamilton absolutely had a streak of authoritarian elitism in him. And so speaking of the Founding Fathers as a whole, on an issue like this, is not reasonable. Hamilton was highly divisive, and managed to push away just everybody - even those also more in favor of a Federalist system.

Wearing costumes establishes costumes and illustrates the joviality of at least a portion of the attendees of the event. It would be odd to say that it is immaterial that you went to a concert or a restaurant or any place really, and lots of people were dressed as Vikings, or as SWAT, etc.

It's immaterial insofar as the US Capitol is not, in fact, a concert or restaurant.

(And similarly, it should be clear that an insurrection's nature doesn't depend on whether the crowd is jovial or not.)

It was a happy guillotine. The French are also off the hook because they were so damn happy to be guillotining people.

According to the bipartisan House select committee that investigated the incident, the attack was the culmination of a plan by Trump to overturn the election.

Within 36 hours, five people died: including a police officer who died of a stroke a day after being assaulted by rioters and collapsing at the Capitol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capito...

> It is the only attempted coup d'état directed towards the Federal government in the history of the United States.

The Civil War in the early 1860s doesn't count because they just wanted to secede?

The Civil War wasn't really a coup because the South wasn't trying to take over Washington D.C. or run the Federal government. A coup is usually a quick, behind the scenes power grab by a small group of people trying to unseat a leader. What happened in the 1860s was the exact opposite: it was a massive, public breakup where entire states voted to leave.

the post war assassination of Lincoln was, in a tiny sense, a delusion of coup, perhaps.

Yes that’s a good point

Multiple protestors had weapons and the militias had weapons parked just across the border. There also would have been no reason to pardon anyone if no crimes were being committed. But you already know this

Nobody said no crimes had been committed. It’s just simply laughable to call it an insurrection.

Killing legislators or physically threatening them into overturning the results. But siccing the mob was just a last-ditch move.

The main plan was sending fake electors with fraudulent certifications and counting on Pence to derail the formal vote count and accept the false slate through a fog of procedural confusion. The fact that Pence refused to go along with the plan and Trump resorted to physically threatening him and Congress doesn't change the fact that their plan was an illegal and fraudulent interference with the verification of the election based on knowingly false claims.

don't worry, I suspect there will be a 2nd attempt on Jan 6th 2029

I doubt it. Reichstag fire by Q2 2028.

More like Nov 2026

> It also illustrates what a real insurrection attempt looks like.

What did you say elsewhere about "good faith"? J6 was a real insurrection attempt.

A failed and poorly executed insurrection attempt is still an insurrection attempt.

People go to prison for attempted murder every day.

How did they stop him?

Enough members of the National Assembly managed to bypass the military blockade, get into the building, and vote to reject martial law. (Some had to climb over the fence to get in.)

Here's a news article from that time: https://m.koreaherald.com/article/10012328

Some of the orders weren't carried out, others were carried out loosely so armed forces were occupying their Congress but they didn't actually stop members from being in the building and voting down the martial law. If we're doing the Trump comparison, an obvious difference is that Trump already knew the military wouldn't intervene to take sides on who got certified as the winner (they'd actually taken the unprecedented step of issuing a statement to that effect) and had reason to believe some of his supporters would give it a go...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com