It's much easier to use this to reject than to accept.

We're no mondragon but I founded a co-op in IT space a few years back and it surprised me how open to the vision the members and customers have been.

I had assumed I'd have to lean more on the capitalistic values of being a co-op, like better rates for our clients, higher quality work, larger likelihood of our long term existence to support our work, more project ownership, so as to make the pitch palatable to clients. Turns out clients like the soft pitch too, of just workers owning the company they work within - I've had several clients make contact initially because they bought the vision over the sales pitch.

I'm trying to think about if I'd trust us more to set up or host openclaw than a VC funded startup or an establishment like Capital One. I think both alternatives would have way more resources at hand, but I'm not sure how that would help outside of hiring pentesters or security researchers. Our model would probably be something FOSS that is keyed per-user, so if we were popular, imo that would be more secure in the end.

The incentives leading to trust is definitely in a co-op's favor, since profit motive isn't our primary incentive - the growth of our members is, which isn't accomplished only through increasing the valuation of the co-op. Members also have total say in how we operate, including veto power, at every level of seniority, so if we started doing something naughty with customer data, someone else in the org could make us stop.

This is our co-op: 508.dev, but I've met a lot of others in the software space since founding it. I think co-ops in general have legs, the only problem is that it's basically impossible to fund them in a way a VC is happy with, so our only capitalization option is loans. So far that hasn't mattered, and that aligns with the goal of sustainable growth anyway.

That's nonsense. Shareholders have an incentive to violate privacy much stronger than any one employee: they can sell their shares to the highest bidder and walk away with 'clean hands' (or so they'll argue) whereas co-op partners violating your privacy would have to do so on their own title with immediate liability for their person.

Barely. Your points are well made and I'm sure that it is just a matter of time before they're just as untouchable as the rest. Hence the remark about mail. The Siloization of the internet is almost complete.

Yes, they're losing it.

It's a pity, they were doing well for a long time.

I'm surprised that someone on HN would paint all of HN with the same brush.

It's one of those 'lesser evils' things. If you know of a better email provider I'd love to know.

Proton complied with a court order once (that we know of), no? I have seen a lot of negative sentiment from HN commenters toward them but not a lot of evidence to back it up, particularly when you consider the email marketplace.

> Surprised than even in HN nobody check behind the facade what was signed

Such as?

These aloof comments that talk about something we're supposed to know about without referencing anything are very unhelpful.

Because I don't trust that that location data won't end up in the wrong hands.

"Justifying lower insurance rates" is just algorithmic bias described from the perspective of someone it doesn't (currently) harm. See also: credit scoring, insurance claim acceptance, job applications, etc., etc.

You only get offered a discount if most other customers are being compelled to pay full (or even increased) prices for the same offering. Otherwise revenue goes down and company leadership finds itself finding other ways to cut costs and increase profits.

If you're not to some degree pessimistic right now that simply means you haven't been paying attention for two decades or so. I would expect that for a number of people we are now well into 'don't look up' territory, they realize in their gut that this all isn't right but they prefer to pretend everything is alright as long as they can because the alternative is just too uncomfortable. I see this around me all the time and I don't blame them at all, people as a rule have problems enough without having to think about the larger implications. Unfortunately that is exactly the kind of loophole the power hungry contingent needs to drive their trucks through: by structurally worsening quality of life they ensure that the bulk of the people is distracted while they make out like bandits over the backs of the rest.

Yes. My old farm in Canada was pretty good in that sense, but with the madman next door even that would not have felt very stable right now.