FloJack: Bringing NFC to iPhone/iPad (kickstarter) | Hacker News Reader

FloJack: Bringing NFC to iPhone/iPad (kickstarter)

kickstarter.com

52 pointsseats49 comments

The only compelling use case for this device appears to be for kiosk-esque setups. For the casual user, it seems unlikely to catch on. I'm certainly not going to carry that thing with me, pull it out, plug it it in, open the FloJack app and tap one of those stickers to call my mom. This would be WAY more compelling if the device would fit flush with the phone in some way such that it'd be reasonable to keep it attached any time the headphone jack wasn't in use. I could see it fitting around the backside of the phone, as there's some pretty good real estate that could be covered without interfering with any other function of the phone. Unfortunately, supporting the different shapes of the target devices could get tricky.

NFC has a lot of potential, but right now it needs a lot more support from industry. I found trying to spend money in my Google Wallet very frustrating. Almost no store has nfc readers, and the one place that did have one didn't have it working. I ended up contacting Google to get my balance refunded. So right now an nfc reader would not have much use except as a toy. And kiosks still have to deal with the fact that most people don't have nfc-enabled phones. So all they would need is to get one of those portable credit card readers. Right now the only nfc chips I regularly come into contact with are in library books.

The FloJack aims to support the NFC ecosystem. It's hw compatible with any device with a 3.5mm audio jack. It's the smallest -and lightest- full fledged NFC reader on the market. And it's available for anyone to buy (unlike enterprise-only icarte, devicefidelity, twinlinx, roamdata, etc with their "ask for quote" bs)

In any NFC interaction, there's at least one reader involved. In the NFC world people are dreaming of the day that all mobile phone's have nfc and these interactions are reader on reader.

We are obviously a long way from that. Does this device make this a reality? Will people be buying these, placing them in their pockets like headphones to pull out when needed?

Unlikely, it's true.

However, there's no need to fixate on this. With some imagination, there's a lot that can be one with the humble tag and nfc readers in the field.

Imagine at events or tradeshows, people were given wristbands. These wristbands could have their email, phone number, VIP area access and even drink credits attached. Hell, even their full facebook profile.

Booth holders could have checkin stations, where with a swipe wristbanders could sign up to mailing lists, share contact info, or like a product on facebook. People at concerts could get branded photos taken with "Listening to $FAMOUS_ROCK_BAND's $FAMOUS_SONG"

Even if, there was 400M iOS devices that were going to spontaneously combust the minute iPhone 6 with nfc was released. And even if, this product line only had a useful life of one year, for developers it's still a year's evolution on their NFC app.

It's about empowering apple devs NOW(ish)

As an Android user, I love NFC and think it has a ton of potential.

That being said, FloJack seems to be inherently depreciated from inception. I hope they reach their goal though.

I like this idea, and I was about to back it, but then I read this:

"Q. What type of battery does the FloJack run on? A. The FloJack runs on a standard 3V lithium cr2023 battery. You can find these at any grocery or convenience store."

Apparently, the dongle isn't powered by the host phone. No details were given on how long the dongle lasts on one battery, but if it's shorter than several months, I don't think this solution will catch on.

This thing looks like a round version of the Square card reader, a dongle that also plugs into an iPhone's headphone jack but doesn't require its own power source. So what gives?

If the headphone jack doesn't provide enough power for the NFC reader, perhaps they should release one that connects to the Dock connector or Lightning connector instead. Which of course does mean they'll have to deal with Apple.

Samuel, the power efficiency of the FloJack is first rate. The consumption per polling interval is ~10uAs. On a 250mAh cr2032, this works out to about 90MM polls. At the Android polling rate of 10Hz, the FloJack would last just over 3 months. Since FloJack's sleep mode kicks in when apps stop using it, we estimate typical usage patterns will allow upwards of a year of battery life.

If they sip power that well, a battery should be included. Make the user experience that much better.

A battery is indeed included with each FloJack. Thanks for the feedback, we'll add that to the KS project page.

The Square reader basically acts like a magnetic tape head, using the tape to modulate an audio signal being played out of the audio port, and feeding the modulated result back in. It's completely passive much like a typical microphone is.

This NFC business requires actually transmitting some sort of radio waves, which requires some actual energy, not just modulation. IIRC the iPhone's audio port can be parasitized for a bit of energy, but it's in the realm of tens of milliwatts peak.

That may have been true initially, but according to a Square employee I talked to the reader actually has a battery and encrypts the card number before sending it to the phone. Also, each reader has a unique key.

Square added the encryption in the dongles last year. This happened not long after Verifone cited the lack of encryption in an early 2011 FUD campaign against Square.

http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/28/square-to-beef-up-card-read...

Neat, I forgot that they changed the stuff later on. I suppose the fact that the new one requires a battery bolsters my overall point, anyway.

I want to back this right now. I'm the creator of a mobile payments startup much in the same vein as Venmo. The "killer" app, IMO, is the ability to simply tap two devices together, enter an amount & pin, and ... profit! The problem is I just can't see the adoption beyond closed, corporate applications. What Square has going for it is only the payment-accepting party needs to acquire the dongle. This is a captive audience and very incentivized to adopt. No sweat. But with FloJack you're asking the general public to acquire your dongle with little incentive. Tough. I can't think of anything, but is there a possibility of only one side needing the dongle to participate (the service provider - in my case - someone receiving payment) in a transaction? Convince me otherwise and I'll be happy to back. I'm also happy to discuss details off HN.

FloJack was conceived as a way of instrumenting spaces. Think point of sale, digital interactive signage, checkin touch-points, etc. So the general public would carry native NFC phones or NFC cards/wristbands that would interact with an iPad -or an old iPhone- to trigger a secure transaction. If that's not convincing enough, hit us up at info@flomio.com.

The way I think of NFC is in two models:

1. Reader centric - where everything revolves around the reader, as in using this reader for NFC payments. You can use passive tags, like stickers, key chains, wristbands etc to scan. Associate data with these tags via the cloud.

2. Tag centric - where everything revolves around the tag & it is a dynamic thing, which also seems possible with this flojack device. I'm less of a fan of this because of the problems you noted above - it's just a hassle to get people activated in this model.

I think the first model satisfies your requirement of only one side needing the dongle to participate.

Why is it so huge? Makes it pointless in my opinion, no way I'm carrying that around. Surely this can achieved in a smaller form factor.

The FloJack bill of materials consists of only 54 parts, of which the cr2032 battery tray is the largest by far. We chose this design because these batteries are inexpensive and easy to find. Creating a more streamline form factor with a 3D printer that draws power from the iPhone bottom connector is trivial and something we're exploring. How much would you be willing to pay for it?

It's just matter of time for Apple to include it built-in. They (Apple) dont see value in it yet, but that doesnt mean they dont have plans. Agree that this will open up a lot of possibilities.

I'll piggy back on you comment, since mine is very similar. I don't see this as a worthwhile product for more than a year. This is purely speculative but Apple will implement this tech themselves, if it catches on, or they'll release something similar and exclusive to the iPhone (highly doubt the latter). My gut tells me that iPhone 6 will roll out with NFC, and this product will die the second it does.

They may, but people have been saying they'll launch NFC for a couple years now. It hasn't happened. This can help fill that void and build the NFC ecosystem for when they eventually do.

Flomio was doing other NFC stuff before this, and considering the mentions of the SDK on the kickstarter page, I think that's their real play. I think they'd be perfectly happy in a world where this product isn't necessary. In the meantime, this is necessary to drag Apple devices into the small but growing ecosystem (and the utility of the NFC ecosystem is largely driven by a network effect, so this bootstrapping is important).

$80k goal sounds slightly modest for a mass consumer tech product like FloJack. Anyways, I would definitely get it. That is, until Apple themselves don't somehow implement this.

Best of luck to you guys. I always root for Kickstarter companies. (Note: working on a site that can help you guys pump hype into your project http://www.hypejar.com/FloJack).

I'm staring at the page and wondering "WTF is NFC"? And it's not till 1/3 down the page.

And then the possibilities opened up by this magical NFC aren't listed for another 2/3's down the page (Launch your favorite iOS Apps, Open URLs, Play YouTube videos).

Ugh, horrible sales pitch. Sell me immediately on the possibilities of NFC upfront.

thanks for feedback aantix. I'm glad you got through the whole page though. man... we went through so many iterations, writes, re-writes, addressed a ton of constructive feedback, and at one point when the haze cleared, a weary finger extended and pressed launch. not dismissing your comment or our hard work. we did good.

I need 75 of these ASAP, anyone know these guys?

yeah... they're sitting next to me. How soon is ASAP? info@flomio.com

Cool, probably by mid-January at the latest.

I just filled out the form on your site, should I shoot you an email?

yeah... def shoot an email.

or tim at flomio dot com

You can also check out http://www.icarte.ca - it's an iphone cover that provides rfid/nfc

One of Australia's largest Banks uses it (http://www.commbank.com.au/mobile/commbank-kaching/)

Indeed, slightly more practical than a dongle, however it doesn't support NDEF and other cool NFC actions.

Android handles NFC so well!

These look awesome. I reached out a few months back but they aren't into selling them without a massive enterprise deal.

Probably the most important use case for such a device is payments / PayPass - does it support card emulation?

The FloJack supports all 3 NFC modes: Discovery (R/W), Card Emulation, and Peer to Peer. Payments is messy. There are two types: Closed-loop and Open-loop. The FloJack supports closed-loop via cloud payments, but for open-loop you need a tamper-proof secure module which we couldn't manage to fit in. We are working on new devices that will support open-loop payments, so email info@flomio.com if you want to learn more.

Apple is probably going to launch it in its next generation or the one after that... why would some one buy a 3rd party component after that.. I don't think anyone buys a bluetooth dongle for an iPhone just cause it lets them do more things...

I feel like this has been said of the past two iPhones & now with the iPad mini - there is no clear indication Apple is going to support NFC in the near term. Why do you feel this way?

because NFC is the way of the future. so much potential. how could they not.

We can see Apple typically releases any new technology a few years later. NFC came into mainstream only last year so it might take a few more years for it to be widely used for applications. Apple made a safe bet with passbook because all the store cards/tickets use similar bar codes or QR codes. A few startups have started on software/hardware lacking in Apple products but once the manufacturer integrates it into their product, they risk losing their purpose if they don't innovate. They integrated LTE after a few years it became mainstream. This will eventually happen too.

>> NFC came into mainstream only last year

NFC is not mainstream. It may be shipping in mainstream phones, but you'd starve to death in most places if you could only buy food with NFC.

I mean into spotlight and started appearing on production models

Even more than that, if this is a success it could even increase the likelihood that Apple adds native NFC capabilities to their devices, by demonstrating that it's useful (and to whom and for what).

Like a couple others have said in this thread, I think this is more about bootstrapping an ecosystem driven by network effects -- the more people adopt it and the sooner, the more useful it becomes and the more likely it is to actually go mainstream.

Flomio isn't just selling this device; look at the higher reward levels -- they're also selling an SDK and cloud analytics infrastructure -- I think they'd be perfectly happy if nobody needed this because it was built in.

yes I think that would be a much bigger advantage over their competitors

that's pretty spot on

Seriously, Google should fund this whole project and make it work with Google Wallet.

I'd rather carry a credit card than a dongle I have to plug in and launch an app each time I want to pay...

agreed, but i think this was designed in a world where you have static/passive nfc tag like this: http://nfctags.tagstand.com/collections/nfc-kits/products/nf... & you have the dynamic part "in the cloud".

Is $80,000 a realistic amount of money to launch a project as ambitious as this one? With multiple employees and a large need for hardware and manufacturing, I don't see how this is enough to kickstart the product.

Looking forward to getting this thing. My first kickstart pledge, kinda excited about that too.

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