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Comment by AlexMuir | Hacker News Reader

How underwhelming.

At 7.9 inches, it’s perfectly sized to deliver an experience every bit as big as iPad

What does that even mean? Either it's perfectly sized, and the iPad is the wrong size. Or it's not. There can surely only be one perfect size to deliver an iPad experience??? Either it's 10" or it's 7.9".

I think Apple's marketing has always been the same - it's just that for a while they were ahead of the curve and so their hyperbole was justified. The iPhone was amazing. The Macbook Air is still amazing. But there is absolutely FUCK ALL amazing about a smaller fucking iPad.

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I say this with absolutely no judgement regarding the value of the iPad Mini, but I'm struck by the similarity between this criticism and the criticism leveled against the original iPad ("it's just a giant iPod Touch!").

This is what apple haters say about every Apple product. They said the iPhone would be a total flop and never sell the 10 million units Steve Jobs said they hoped to sell-- because it didn't have a hardware keyboard.

They said it about the iPod too- claiming that having less capacity than the creative nomad and no built in radio made it "lame" (CmdrTaco famously said this.)

They said it about the iMac as well, calling it a toy computer that looked like candy. Funny how in 2 years all the other manufacturers were making their computers colorful, and the bondi-blue design aesthetic was adopted by a wide variety of products around the world.

Now I'm sure somewhere there are people who were not even 10 years old when the iMac was being put down are saying the iPad mini is lame. For the same reasons.

Then when the product strikes a nerve with the public, and sells 100 million units, they decide that the people buying it must be stupid and persuaded by slick marketing, because obviously its "lame" or "doesn't have the specs" of the competition (though they never detail how it lacks specs and usually they're completely wrong and ignoring the terrible usability of the competition.)

It's the standard issue mythology of the apple hater:

Apple products are inferior (even when they aren't.) Apple products are more expensive (even though they aren't.) Apple buyers are stupid and easily persuaded by slick marketing (even though it should be obvious that people buy Apple products because they work better for them.)

Consequently, EVERY Apple product introduction is "underwhelming".

Any discussion involving the terms "apple hater" or "apple fanboy" immediately disappears into a hole of stupidity.

That said, Apple are inviting some of these comparisons. "More expensive", for example. The iPad Mini is more expensive than a Nexus 7, by a significant margin. Apple invited the comparison by comparing the two devices themselves on stage.

Google should be delighted. I've yet to find a "normal" who is aware that anyone else sells "iPads". And Amazon doesn't count, they sell "Kindles".

No amount of competitive marketing seems to have brought the two product families into competition beyond "well I heard the iPad has books too but my friend loves her Kindle".

I'm yet to find a "normal" that watches Apple Keynotes, though.

Good point. :)

You aren't on my Twitter timeline then.

No but the iPad Mini was above-the-fold breaking news on the BBC news website before the keynote was even over.

Nobody else could sell a product called iPad without getting sued.

Yeah, but customers don't know that. "iPad" is the Kleenex of tablets.

The only reason the Galaxy Note gets a pass is because it's still mentally categorized as a big telephone.

Is it? I've never head any other than some very old people which doesn't know what a tablet or a computer is calling a random tablet an 'iPad'.

Why would Google be delighted? Because they have the "low end" wrapped up and make little profit margin?

Because Apple's mentioning their product in the same breath as iPad. It strongly argues that Apple is financially/strategically concerned enough with that form factor to risk mentioning the existence of competition.

I'm not sure why, given the sales of the "mini" form factor. I kind of suspect they're more concerned with positioning themselves against jumbo phones, which -are- selling in volume and have already invited a major design change in the iPhone line.

>>Because Apple's mentioning their product in the same breath as iPad. It strongly argues that Apple is financially/strategically concerned enough with that form factor to risk mentioning the existence of competition.

I don't know if this is necessarily the right conclusion.

I'm pretty good at being wrong. :) What do you think?

I constantly talk to "normals" that don't understand whether the iPad can run programs like their computer at home. I've seen a lot of iPhones with 5 or less downloaded apps: Facebook and a couple top casual games.

Apple vs Google is the tablets akin to Microsoft vs Apple.

For me what it comes down to in the end is the same, which is easier to hand off to a relative and not worry about.

Answer : the iPad.

I provided many family members with PCs over the years all the while using Apple products. Why? Because I knew they could just pop into a local store and buy software for it. Because I knew Windows was common and they most likely had it at work. Because I knew if their machine had an issue either I could solve it quickly or Dell's support would. Heck Dell even sent someone to my parents house to fix the unit!

Well something similar is happening here. I know if I give them an iPad they won't be lacking for software. It is a packaged experience with a dearth of support.

So, yeah they cost a bit more upfront, but for me the lack of having to "fix" something is worth the premium. It also means they know what it is and understand the intrinsic value. If I hand them a Google Nexus the first questions will be to compare it to an iPad... and well, why bother.

Even phrasing it as "Apple vs Google" is counterproductive. In this example, we have two products. One is more expensive, but better built and with a larger software library. The other is cheaper, a little more plastic-y but with a better screen.

Neither is "better" than the other, it entirely depends on your circumstances- what you want your tablet to do, how much money you have, etc. etc.

Not only is it more expensive, it has a lower resolution and a larger screen - for lower pixel density. They then compare it to a Nexus 7, saying the iPad mini has more resolution and viewing area... 1064x768 is in no way more than 1280x800. Granted the different apps for tablet/phone was more apparent in iOS, but for browsing (which they touted as a major use) the iPad mini looks worse. Their Guggenheim example had more visible space on the Nexus 7.

It's possible to criticize Apple without hating them. And "underwhelming" is not a synonym for "terrible".

Could you enlighten us about how apple products aren't expensive?

Compare a MBP with a similarly built laptop. Dont pick up a plastic built or one with a shitty trackpad. Built quality IS hardware too.

Same for iMacs. Don't compare an iMac with a clone in a tower. Compare it to a similar form factor: all in one, quiet, low power consumption.

Try shopping a MacBook Pro against an equivalently configured T-series ThinkPad from Lenovo. The price difference is usually huge (more than 30% cheaper for the entry-level 15-inch configuration I tried) and gets even worse if you spend a few minutes to Google up an applicable Lenovo coupon.

LOL as someone using a Lenovo, right now, let me just say this:

If you buy it over an Apple, you get what you deserve. The quality from Lenovo has been declining since they bought the brand from IBM. Thinkpad's are a SHADOW of their former glory, sadly.

Here's something people don't factor in when buying laptops: Your expensive MacBook Pro is having issues? Well, visit an Apple store and get it fixed!

Your expensive Lenovo is having issues? Well... mail it back...

But you still didn't make the comparison, you told other people to do it. Until you make the comparison, I'm still betting that the Lenovo cuts corners in a variety of ways to make the product cheaper, and as a consumer you have to accept those cost-cutting trade offs.

It's a disagreement about the definition of "expensive." Apple products are more expensive than other products in the same general category. They are not more expensive than their direct competitors.

For example, while there are laptops much cheaper than the Air, the ultra books with similar specs, weight, battery life, and build quality aren't really cheaper. Another way to look at is that while Apple doesn't sell a $500 laptop, you don't get less in a $1,200 MBA than comparable $1,200 PC laptops.

The iPod mini was also widely mocked by the tech crowd - it was $249 to the iPod's $299, with much smaller (like 1/10th, IIRC) storage space.

Turns out it became the best selling iPod of all time.

He's not criticising the product, he's criticising the marketing.

Read the front of an Everglade spray can. I think it says "The Essence of Nature". Then read the back. The back is full of skulls...

While I agree some of the texts on the iPad mini page could have been better written, it's as usual just marketing speak designed to push interested customers that extra cm they need to do a purchase.

Well that sounds about right, the essence of nature is that everything dies.

Plus, you know, hemlock, poisonous animals and plants, cyanide, etc etc.

And also everything is poisonous when condensed enough. Essence usually means condensed to a high content.

In fairness, that specific marketing line is more than a little silly: it can't be both smaller than an iPad and as big at the same time; both devices can't be the "perfect" size when they are different.

Like all tech companies, Apple needs to be able to do subtle iterations and improvements, and their marketing teams are left to try to add an "r" to every evolution.

The experience can be perfect no matter what size it is :)

> both devices can't be the "perfect" size when they are different.

Unless they are designed for different usage scenarios.

It's certainly a marketing line with plenty of exageration, but I don't think it's particularly unusual.

"At 7.9 inches, it’s perfectly sized to deliver an experience every bit as big as iPad"

It's "perfectly sized" for the role it's filling (one hand, more mobile, like a pulp novel, whatever), and iPad is "perfectly sized" for it's own role (around the house, larger games, magazine reading, whatever). They can both be "perfectly sized" in a marketing world, and I'm sure the design team fussed over the exact dimensions for a LONG time.

It's "an experience" "as big as the iPad" to emphasize that it will run all the existing apps, vs their comparisons to a "scaled up phone experience". The marketing here emphasizes that the compact experience is 'just as good'. I do wonder how well UI elements will scale down, but in a marketing world it makes a certain kind of sense to me.

Yes, these claims are a bit silly, especially in a literal sense, but recall that the original iPad was "magical". It's pretty typical marketing phrasing, especially for Apple.

That said, I frequently find the phrasing funny too.

To crib from Andrew Plotkin, there are only two reviews of Apple products:

"Nothing new, no one will buy it"

and

"It's too radical, no one will buy it"

I have a Nexus 7 and an iPad. I find myself using the Nexus almost exclusively. This is probably because it's easier to carry around and if I'm going to carry something as big as the iPad I may as well just carry laptop.

Same here. The fact that I can slide the Nexus into an inside jacket pocket makes it so much more practical than the iPad, which you have to explicitly carry.

I feel the same, and was excited when the Nexus 7 was released.

But no LTE on a portable device is just ridiculous. I'm going to jump on the iPad mini as soon as it releases.

I'm not sure how representative of any market I am, but Google could have had me as a customer from day 1 if they had had LTE on the Nexus; instead, I'll be giving more money to Apple.

There are rumours that one of the devices to be released on October 29th will include a 3G Nexus 7.

Yeah but by October 29th I'll have an iPad mini pre-ordered :)

I manage to rely on the fact that there's a wi-fi enabled coffee shop every few yards or so, but I guess not everyone lives in Seattle.

Don't you also have a phone? I can 1-click tether my Nexus 7 to my iPhone (which is always on me). In fact that is how I'm composing this reply. It doesn't seem necessary for every device to have its own cellular connection when they're so easy to network.

Not everyone has network service plans that are tether-friendly :(

Upgrading to one that is will generally be cheaper than paying for a second device.

Unless carriers start offering me several SIMs on one account then I'm not going to pay twice for mobile data.

It's a couple of taps to tether to my phone. I'm already paying for a mobile connection and I can't use two accounts at once.

I bought a Nexus 7 for dev purposes, and I also use it more now than my iPad (3rd gen), mostly due to the size. It's a lot easier to hold for long periods of time.

But truthfully, all the Nexus 7 really did was make me want an iPad mini, because the device itself is very frustrating. Reading a PDF? Half the screen is a garbly mess since only one page gets rendered nicely. Drives me nuts.

Even Chrome (which runs plenty fast) has a terrible time recognizing taps on links. I find myself tapping, and tapping, and tapping, and finally, it does something.

I'm ordering an iPad mini for personal usage, and expect it to sell crazy numbers of units, if my experience is at all typical. The size difference is so important that for a month now I've put up with crappy UX even as my larger iPad was in arm's reach.

Also, every iPad I've bought has had cellular; I'm surprised Google doesn't offer that for extra $$$ on the Nexus 7. The only place I do use my iPad now is in the car, and the iPad mini (with LTE) will replace both devices.

My reaction was "I want a giant phone." I love reading with it and it's the perfect size to hold but it's an ironically poor size for typing. Too small to use with more than two fingers (like an ipad) and too big to type like a phone. Maybe the ipad mini's extra inch makes it a little more typing friendly (for people with smaller fingers).

It's called a Samsung Note.

My GF loves her Note 2. Of course she carries it in a bag, but if you want a giant phone, that's the one to go for.

For a phone I want the exact opposite. Give me an iPod Nano sized phone and I would be extremely happy.

Me too. The trend towards bloat-phones is very frustrating, because they seem to be replacing smaller phones rather than being offered as an alternative...

I tend to grip my Nexus 7 with my left hand and use all the fingers on my right to type. It's faster than typing on a phone and I find it easier than trying to grip with 2 hands and thumb-type.

I dunno, I like Chrome's zoom tap ability, which activates when the tap covers too many inputs.

It's much nicer than accidently hitting a link, then have to hit back after a second or two.

Agreed, that feature's great.

What's annoying is when it doesn't pick up taps on links that stand alone, which is the case, on, e.g. HN. The tap "targeting" for Chrome seems particularly poor.

I was disappointed in PDFs at first too; install an alternate app, they don't have the same issue.

Google is supposedly releasing a new Nexus tablet with cellular in next week's event. I would wait to see what they come out with before buying an iPad mini.

Yeah... this is exactly why I sold my ipad 2 and just got a new 11" macbook air to pair w/ my Nexus.

I love my Nexus 7. I have multiple Windows Phone, iOS and Android devices (and develop for all three), but for me, the shared, non-sandboxed file system on Android is the huge productivity win (despite the security risks). It's very easy to copy files in and out using SMB, ftp, Dropbox, etc. and then use them in apps. Intents for different data types are also mostly a win for Android compared to iOS URL schemes, though Windows 8 / Store 'contracts' are pretty well-designed.

Underwhelming is the operative word. Apple's product iterations get more boring with each upgrade. Classic innovator's dilemma. The iDevice line-up sells too well to change the formula, but there's no wow factor anymore. I always figured at some point they would slap a proper navigation UI on the ipad (the icon grid offers a really poor ux), but i suspect they'll stick with evolutionary steps for years to come.

I'm probably still buying the mini. It may be boring, but its still the best of its competitors. Only microsoft's stuff might make me reconsider. I've been really impressed by the lumia phones, which have a better UX than the iphone in my opinion. I can imagine a tablet with windows rt being a joy to use as well.

It doesn't help that they are clearly playing follow the leader now too.

Bigger phone, smaller tablet...yawn.

Who is the leader exactly?

the entire Android ecosystem

It's a far more interesting ecosystem. There are Android phones which are waterproof, there are high-spec devices in Japan, there are phones which accept pressure-sensitive stylus input, and there's even an e-ink based phone in development.

> I always figured at some point they would slap a proper navigation UI on the ipad (the icon grid offers a really poor ux)

Do you have any suggestions for something better than the canonical icon grid?

Agreed that the copy is cloying, but surely you realize that the point is that some people prefer a smaller device? When I showed my wife this link, she immediately requested one for Christmas. This was surprising, as she had never before shown the slightest interest in an Apple offering. Then she said that this was going to sell like hotcakes, because at this size, it's not too big to fit in a lady's purse.

What did she say when you showed her the Nexus 7 a few months ago?

(I'm only asking this because you wrote "... never before shown the slightest interest in an Apple offering.")

I also like in their video how they say that it's perfect to use with one hand.

With the iPad mini and the iPhone 5, have they completely forgotten how small thumbs are? It's marketing BS.

I recall he said it can be held in one hand, not "used" with one hand.

In the promo video, they say "it's small enough to fit in one hand" at time 0:49, but later at 2:29 Ives says, "you can still pick it up and easily use it with one hand."

https://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/overview/#video-ipad-mini-fe...

Clearly he meant that you can pick it up with one hand, and use it with the other. Nobody thinks you can physically operate the ipad mini with a single hand.

You can probably scroll or flip pages with your thumb, so it might be comfortable to read long content with one hand (like a kindle).

I guess it opens the market to more people (by being less expensive,) but absolutely underwhelming. A desktop computer that's thinner (who cares how thin the desktop is?) and a smaller iPad. It's getting confusing know just what to buy anymore, each variant of iOS device has a myriad options, it's getting more like the old Dell customize your PC selection, memory, network type, display size. I guess Apple are trying to recreate the whole PC ecosystem, just around tablets instead. Good for their bottom line, which is, after all, Apple's goal here.

There's a world of difference between "Configure with NVidia GTX 8800 or NVidia GTX 9500+ OEM Edition?" and "Do you want black or white?"

It's almost as if all apple marketing is emotionally targeted bullshit that has no basis on reality whatsoever.

It's almost as if people buy devices because of the emotional response they elicit when they use them, not because of hardware specifications. Apple's marketing simply aligned more with what consumers look for in a device.

>What does that even mean?

it is saying you are too cheap to buy an bigger iPad, so you should buy this instead.

It's the same size an a Kindle Fire / Nexus 7, but lighter, with better battery life, a bigger display, better battery life, and a faster processor. Oh, and it's an iOS device so you can actually use it for something other than bragging about how cheap it was and propping up wobbly tables.

This is the type of low quality comment we should avoid on HN. Ignorant, prejudicial and irrelevant.

Oh, come on. As someone who's developed for both platforms, and worked with plenty of other devs (who ought to neither be ignorant nor prejudicial about the situation at hand as their job depends upon it) make quips of this sort all the time. Android is near-exclusively the target of their mirth.

This leaves irrelevance, perhaps, but given the context of this thread I'd argue it's not that either.

The beauty of Hacker News is that it isn't filled up with irrelevant quips that tend to polarise discussions. We can actually learn from each other despite our differences.

Pot calling the kettle black.

> Oh, and it's an iOS device so you can actually use it for something

[citation needed]

You should have some citations there: (I'm assuming Kindle Fire HD)

* Lighter - that is correct, it is ~75g lighter than KF & N7

* Better battery life - citing the tech specs, it gets 10h browsing, surfing etc. the same as N7 and 1h less than KF's (these are all advertised)

* Bigger display - Yes it is bigger in inches, but it is lower resolution than both KF and N7 - meaning pictures are going to look worst. And the mini won't be able to do true 720p.

* Faster processor - Comparing apples and oranges here, provide a citation.

I've never gotten anything close to 10h battery life out of my Nexus 7.

And I left out the cameras. The iPad Mini has (it appears) an actually good camera, whereas the Kindle Fire has none and the Nexus 7 (I think) only has a (poor) front camera -- never figured out how to use it if it's there.

Except it's evidently sexually active, from your eloquent description.

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