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Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

I was offered a job at Bloomberg in 2003, at a significantly better starting than $110k/yr, moving from Ann Arbor, MI. I did this math. So, three things:

(1) I'll spare you yet another hypothetical family budget monthly itemization.

(2) I'll concede that it is clearly possible to raise a family in New York on $110k/yr.

(3) I'll assert again that it is not comfortable to raise a family in New York on $110k/yr, nor does it appear to be easy.

There are obviously a lot of sacrifices you can make to make the budget work out, but in a family scenario, not all sacrifices are tenable.

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Could you define comfortable? I'm really curious to know what goods and services are beyond your reach at $110k/year.

I've also done the math and lived it. Commuting from jersey is better, but even manhattan (north of 111'th st) is quite livable.

$110k is ~$6600/mo net working Manhattan, living in Jersey.

Aggressively assume $2500/mo to rent a house (forget buying). Assume part-time child care @ $900, commute @ $400, lowball utilities @ $500 (I pay more than that in Chicago), food @ $1000, car insurance for one car @ $200, and dependent health care at $150.

At $110k/yr, you're now less than $1000/mo over break-even. Lose an alternator in the car, you're in the red. Fill 3 cavities, you're in the red. Fly to Tucson for a funeral, you're in the red.

Can you do it? Yes. But I'm not going to call it easy.

You can rent a 3bdrm apt for $1500 in JC, easily enough space for a family of 3-4. Utilities, figure $100-200/month. (Savings of $1200 over your numbers). Maybe you want a really big house?

The apartments I'm talking about are close to the path, so forget the car (save $200). Path+subway every single day is $185/month (save $215), for a 23 min commute.

So using your numbers, you are $1000 over break-even. In reality, you are closer to $2500 over break-even. How is this uncomfortable?

I mostly agree with you, but isn't $1500 a bit of an underestimate? Jersey City isn't that cheap; $1500 is definitely impossible in Newport or near Exchange Place, and I thought that even around Journal Square it would cost more than $1500 a month for a three bedroom apartment.

$1500 is roughly what you would pay in Journal Square or the heights. The really nice areas you mentioned cost a bit more, of course.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/search/aap/jsy?query=jersey+ci...

Food @ $1000?! Maybe if you eat out every day...Most American families would laugh at this. If you cook at home and plan properly, you can easily feed a family on far less.

We almost never eat out (we like to cook). I have two kids. Our monthly isn't $1000, but it will easily shoot well over $500 if we don't keep meal-plan-discipline. I totally believe a typical middle class family comes close to $1000/mo on food and food-related expenses.

How do you spend $1000 a month on food? That's $10 a meal! You can't spend $10 a meal even if you eat half a pound of Safeway steak for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

At the other end of the spectrum, dry rice is 33¢ a pound, beans and corn are 50¢ a pound, vegetable oil is $1.29 a liter; multivitamins, water and gas are basically free. The standard corn/beans/rice diet costs about 10¢ per pound of cooked food, which is a meal for four people, 1% of what you were spending.

If you started out married to my wife, you would quickly find yourself single! With alimony payments. Trying to date?

$1000 isn't 10/meal/person for a family of 4; it's $8. A meal at McDonalds --- where allegedly lower-middle class people eat because it's cheap --- is $5-$6 in a major metro area.

There are obviously meals we can spec here that cost nowhere close to $8/person. But:

* A plurality of families in America don't cook every night; that doesn't make them clueless crypto-rich people, it makes them normal. If you don't cook, your meal cost goes up.

* A couple contemplating a family life together could reasonably break up over the issue of feeding itself for 5-10 years off bulk dry rice, beans, and corn.

Yes, if you eat every meal at restaurants, you can spend $1000 a month on food. Even if it's McDonald's. That's why only extremely rich people eat every meal at restaurants.

$1000 isn't $10/meal/person; it's $10/meal.

If a family is concerned about the corn/beans/rice diet, which costs like US$40/month according to my "other end of the spectrum" figures, then maybe they could splurge and add some oatmeal, some greens, some fruit and vegetables, milk, herbs and spices, spaghetti with sauce, peanut butter sandwiches, ramen, the occasional chicken. That could raise the price to US$100/month or even higher. But it isn't going to bring it close to US$1000/month.

At $10/meal total, you're feeding 4 people for $2.50 each. A package of chicken breasts costs $9.00, kragen.

Albertsons.com currently offers a "Beef Chuck Shoulder Steak Boneless USDA Select Max Pack" of 4 pounds at US$4.49 per pound: https://shop.albertsons.com/eCommerceWeb/ProductSearchAction...

US$2.50 of raw shoulder steak is therefore half a pound of steak; you'll be grossly obese and get gout by 35 if you eat that every meal. I don't know if that includes delivery, but it's on their delivery site. On the same site, boneless chicken breasts cost the same amount but drumsticks are a quarter of that, and that's before the discount for buying with your Albertson's Preferred Card, or buying on sale, or buying in bulk at Costco instead of Albertson's. I can't find any packages of chicken breasts there that cost $9.00 for a pound.

Where do you shop?

You live in Argentina and you don't know how to cook beef?

What can you do with chuck, kragen? You can, if you are among the 4% of people in the US with the means and expertise, grind it into hamburger or chili meat. You can, if you are among the 10% with a crock pot, make pot roast.

Otherwise, you can cube it and braise it for a stew, and that's about it. Most families can't do much with $20 worth of chuck.

A package of chicken breasts --- enough for 4 people (in my house, 3-4 breasts) is between 1.5 and 2 pounds.

I'm not sure your evidence is rebutting my argument.

Okay, so as not to be a jackass, I will stipulate:

- You can spend more than US$1000 a month feeding a family of four on 100% Safeway (or Albertsons) steak. I was wrong about that. It looks like your bill could go up to US$2000.

- I definitely don't know how to cook beef. In fact, I'm mostly vegetarian. I didn't move to Argentina for the steak. I'm surprised to learn that chuck steak is inedible without special equipment, except in a stew.

- Enough pre-deboned chicken breasts to feed four people for a meal also costs US$10, which is similarly US$1000 a month, if you eat something that pricey three meals a day.

I still want to know how you spend US$1000 a month on food without factoring in restaurants. Even approximately? I'm sure you're not eating a 100% meat diet, are you?

$1000 over break-even would be wonderful. I'm nowhere near that point and yet I've saved more than enough to buy a few new alternators or flights to Tucson.

And I'm guessing you're single.

So if I get married I'll run $1000 over my budget every month? And never update my budget?

Yes. If you have kids, which I think you just acknowledged you don't, every thought you have about budgeting and your comfort levels are going to change.

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