https://james.darpinian.com/blog/apple-imessage-encryption/
My current understanding of the facts:
1. Google defaults to encrypted backups of messages, as well as e2e encryption of messages.
2. Apple defaults only to e2ee of messages, leaving a massive backdoor.
3. Closing that backdoor is possible for the consumer, by enabling ADP (advanced data protection) on your device. However, this makes no difference, since 99.9% of the people you communicate will not close the backdoor. Thus, the only way to live is to assume that all the messages you send via iMessage will always be accessible to Apple, no matter what you do.
It's not like overall I think Google is better for privacy than Apple, but this choice by Apple is really at odds with their supposed emphasis on privacy.
How does Google manage this, such every normie on earth isn’t freaking out?
They get deleted and people shrug.
I don’t know if that’s generally true. I could lose my apple account and not really give a a damn. Not that I see how such a thing would happen, save for apple burning down all their datacenters. I’m running ADP
Huh? What are you talking about? I don’t see anything destructive about it.
(Apple says you can also use a device passcode; I'm not sure if this works if the device is lost. Maybe it does?)
Yubikeys are great
It would be bad PR for Apple if everybody constantly kept losing their messages because they had no way to get back into their account.
One might consider differently colored chat message bubbles… :)
I was unable to use Apple Fitness+ on my TV due to it telling me my Watch couldn’t pair with the TV.
The problem went away when turning off ADP.
To turn off ADP required opening a support case with Apple which took three weeks to resolve, before this an attempt to turn off would just fail with no detailed error.
Other things like iCloud on the web were disabled with ADP on.
I just wanted encrypted backups, that was it.
For the record, there is an ongoing court battle between Apple and UK government about getting it overturned.
Which also says many positive things for Apple that they are willing to put their money where their mouth is and put up a fight.
iCloud on the web not being available is kind of expected; how would it work with E2EE?
Unbreakable phones are coming. We’ll have to decide who controls the cockpit: The captain? Or the cabin?Ross: “Even if you make X cryptographically airtight, the real fight becomes political/physical coercion: ‘ship this or else.’”
Those can both be true at the same time.
That article (written in 2016) says that Apple will build unbreakable phones in the future. Now is the future. So it seems to imply that Apple phones today are unbreakable.
Also, where does the article discuss "all of these protections"? (HSMs, rate limits, etc.)
Indeed. If you don't control the "unbreakable" security though, then the lock is not for your benefit.
> where does the article discuss "all of these protections"?
You could read the danged article, it's pretty clear about the vulnerability of proprietary mitigations. I hate quoting spoilers verbatim but here you go:
The sharper you get, the more important the work. But the more valuable the work, the craftier — and more determined — your adversaries. Every attack is more novel than the last. [...] By the time you land an engineering gig at Apple, you are a twitchy, tinfoily mess.
And it is in this spirit that you develop one of the most secure systems the world has ever known. [...] So adversaries be damned: You finally win on the merits. But who said anything about meritocracy? During the champagne toast, Mr. Fart steps from behind the curtain and pulls the pistol of last resort:
“Don’t ship this. Or else.”Nothing in the article is saying that HSMs, rate limits, etc are weak.
Both promise security, Apple promises some degree of privacy. Google stores your encryption keys, and so does Apple unless you opt in for ADP.
Is it similar to Facebook Messenger (encrypted in transit and at rest but Meta can read it) and Telegram (keys owned by Telegram unless you start a private chat)?
There are things Pixels do that iPhones don’t, e.g., you get notified when a local cell tower picks your IMEI. I mean it’s meaningless since they all do it, but you can also enable a higher level of security to avoid 2G. Not sure it’s meaningful but it’s a nice to have.
Differences in capabilities, experience and implementation are all downstream from that. In other words, everyone pays lip service to privacy and security, but it's very difficult to believe that parties like Meta or Google are actually being honest with you. The incentives just aren't there.
With Apple, you get to fork over your wallet, but at least you seem the be primarily the user they've got to provide services to.
With Google/Meta, you're a sucker to bleed dry.
Yawn. Changing your default search engine takes 5 seconds.
Google pushes Gemini everywhere and wants to keep on to your interactions, with human reviews. While I applaud the transparency, having Gemini scrape my screen makes me uneasy. My frog’s not warm enough for that, yet.
And Gemini in Sheets and Docs is just a toy. Microsoft 365 Copilot is a step ahead but is wrong more often than not, at least from my interactions with them. Both very disappointing. No way to justify access to my personal or my company’s or clients’ information.
Apple promises something they call Secure Compute or so, don’t remember the exact name, which appears to be encrypted and randomized in their cloud compute, which is off-device. With iPhone being the most powerful to date (per GeekBench), Tensor Pixels will have to offload most of the edge compute to GCP, and Snapdragon Samsungs while being powerful (I have no idea but would assume) must follow the Pixel Android approach.
So AI features will exfiltrate even more personal information, occasionally, accidentally, or purposefully, and the user would have consented to that and the human reviews just to get access to the smart features.
Then there’s a big disparity across all Android hardware vendors. Google must cater to that more or less federated topology of Android devices. It’s much harder.
Yet I don’t see any technical blocker for an opt-in for an Apple-grade ADP in Pixels and Galaxies.
It’s all quite weird. Even with Google Passwords, how do I know that it’s E2EE if I can unlock it from a browser with just a device PIN? Lots of loopholes.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/31/us-author...
Apple also makes it easier to achieve that privacy:
- They put all the privacy controls in one place in Settings so you can audit
- App developers are mandated to publish what they collect when publishing apps to the App Store.That’s true. On Pixel Android, there’s several unrelated places in the various settings for the device and for the Google account to take care of and see that they do not collide. And for every function there’s always some sort of small print like “it’s all private to you unless you choose to share” - but to use any of the features/services you have to “share” like with Google Photos and Calendar and Tasks, you lose track of what you share with whom in the end. So essentially not only the metadata is collected but also the content and nothing’s private as a result, at least that’s what I got to understand. And even if you ask Google to delete your personal information, it will retain it for a while for compliance purposes.
As for
> - App developers are mandated to publish what they collect when publishing apps to the App Store.
I believe that’s still moot and rather a voluntary disclosure that no one vets. I’ve seen apps with no collection stated on App Store but deviating privacy policies, or app functions that contradicted their own privacy policy.
From what I heard and read, I understood that as a well-meant idea but still a misconception on the consumer part due to lack of enforcement by Apple.
I'm not familiar with the detail so I cannot comment directly on what you are saying. I don't have the time to go read up on it right now.
But what I would say is that many aspects will be indirectly enforced by Apple (and can be audited/enforced by the user) through the privacy controls (location services, microphone, camera etc.). Clearly that does not cover everything, but it covers a large chunk.
Apple have also made it impossible to for example get a device-level ID, you can only get an app-level pseudo-device-id. So there are various code-level enforcements too.
By default, Apple offers you at no charge: email aliases, private relay, Ask No Track barrier. These are just the ones I can think of right now. I am sure there are more. A big thing with Apple is not that they offer different privacy services but they make it EASY and SEAMLESS to use. No other company comes close.
I agree that the privacy controls on Apple systems are well-organized.
Still, it’s more important to have confidence that the privacy services are not smoke and mirrors with carefully carved-out loopholes. It’s one thing to provide something and hold the competitor as the litmus test, the other to sustainably live up to your promises, like the now pejorative “do no evil” slogan, with retroactive ramifications. There’s really little users can effectively validate about Apple’s privacy promises.
As was demonstrated in LA, it's starting to have significant civil rights consequences.
Would Google or Meta go bankrupt if they stopped selling ads? Yes. Apple wouldn’t.
That's pretty bad. Maybe not "reliant on ad monopoly" bad, but pretty close.
Hardware sales aren't picking up the slack, and advertisement revenue is also following a growth trend. Apple's stock would indeed be cooked if they went balls-out against the government that guarantees them access to cheap hardware and software that has been declared illegally anti competitive by foreign sovereigns. Apple needs this.
Have you considered that people just like Apple's products and services?
They sell third party ads: companies unaffiliated with Apple pay Apple to advertise on Apple platforms.
They’re an ad company. Just because it’s currently a small slice of their total revenue doesn’t make it untrue.
Making some cash on ads doesn’t have to rely on targeted tracking. That only matters if ads are an existential part of your business, and without huge ad revenue growth, your company is dead.
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy2024-q4/FY24_Q4_Consol...
https://www.macrumors.com/2025/10/30/apple-4q-2025-earnings/
That’s 20% of their profit
Notably, this hasn't stopped Apple from introducing multiple anti-tracking technologies into Safari which prevents Google from collecting information from Safari users.
If I open up a new tab in safari it tells me that in the last 30 days Safari prevented 109 trackers from profiling me and that 55% of the sites I use implement trackers. It also tells me that the most blocked tracker is googletagmanager.com across 78 websites
Compared to the S&P 500 which has gained around 75% since then
Keeping in mind the context of the overall thread we're in, where the OP said this:
> Apple's commitment to privacy and security is really cool to see. It's also an amazing strategic play that they are uniquely in the position to take advantage of. Google and Meta can't commit to privacy because they need to show you ads, whereas Apple feels more like a hardware company to me.
And then further down somebody replies with this:
> Apple is an ad company now though
The implication was that, because Apple sells ads now, they must be tracking all of your personal data in the same way that Google does. And then that train of thought was further continued with the implication that, because Apple receives "20% of its profits from ads and Google" (lumping them both together), Apple ergo is receiving 20% of its profits through tracking all of your personal data. But it's not Apple tracking all of your personal data, it's Google tracking it, and they would track it whether they're the default search engine on iOS or not.
The distinction matters to me, and it's why I buy Apple products but not Google products.
Americans are not one person.
> So I don’t think anyone cares
Clearly they do.
> every CEO (definitely not just Tim Cook) is schmoozing with Trump.
Tim Cook was (supposedly) principled. I guess it's hard to pretend that you care about privacy or human rights while eating dinner next to bin Salman.
I guess if you thought he had principles then yeah that could be disappointing. Personally I've never tried to moralize corporations though, I just assume the only principle that every company and CEO operates by is whatever increases the stock price.
Besides Trump‘s approval ratings are worse than ever so I don’t think people really got what they wanted, they got who they voted for not what they voted for.
I have been cocky for 30 heads with the thought that I could always find a job quickly - and have even in 2023 (3 offers within 2 weeks) after being Amazoned and in 2024 (just replied to one recruiter the day after a layoff). But even I shut up and keep my head down these days. As long as we ain’t killing kids, I am not saying anything.
Even that level of non-involvement is getting increasingly difficult with anything Big Tech given their IDF involvement, although Apple might just be a rare exception.
I know, I'm living in a fantasy world in my head.
Two years ago I was locked out of my MacBook pro.
Then I just booted in some recovery mode and just..reset the password!?
Sure macos logged me off from (most) apps and website, but every single file was there unencrypted!
I swear people that keep boasting that whole apple privacy thing have absolutely no clue what they are talking about, nothing short of tech illiterate charlatans. But God the propaganda works.
And don't start me on iMessage.
Would you prefer that Apple did not give you the option to disable the security feature you disabled during setup?
Apple has since confirmed in a statement provided to Ars that the US federal government “prohibited” the company “from sharing any information,” but now that Wyden has outed the feds, Apple has updated its transparency reporting and will “detail these kinds of requests” in a separate section on push notifications in its next report.We know now that it was all marketing talk. Apple didn’t like Meta so they spun a bunch of obstacles. Apple has and would use your data for ads, models and anything that keeps the shareholders happy. And we don’t know the half of the story where as a US corp, they’re technically obliged to share data from the not-E2EE iCloud syncs of every iPhone.
Illegal to do this in (at least) the EU, California and China.