Apple introduces new AirTag with longer range and improved findability | Hacker News Reader

Apple introduces new AirTag with longer range and improved findability

apple.com

611 pointsmeetpateltech744 comments

Airtag is the reason of why I stil have my favourite hand luggage.

I had just sat down on the train from Zurich to Basel. Suddenly, someone sat down in front of me. He looked suspicious, but I didn't pay much attention. Just before the train departed, he picked up what I thought were his belongings and left.

Twenty minutes later, already on the way to Basel, I looked toward where I had left my suitcase. It was gone. That was when I realized that the person who had sat in front of me was a thief.

However, he hadn't counted on the fact that I have an AirTag in every backpack and suitcase.

So I was able to see where the thief was and where he was moving. I considered going to retrieve my suitcase myself, but while traveling back to Zurich, I called the Zurich Police and, as the thief kept moving, I told them where he was.

Twenty minutes later I received a call from the police informing me that they had found my suitcase with my belongings, matching the description I had given.

But also the thief and his accomplice.

I do use airtags for this purpose. I also expect (and I read) that most police departments won't pay the slightest bit of attention to your reports.

I also know from experience that Zurich police will chase an AirTag location with vigor.

That sounds... unique from everything I've heard.

I had a backpack stolen from me at Zurich HB. The police sent a car out on the freeway to chase the train the thieves were on, and nabbed them at the next station. The thieves tossed the clothes I had in the bag, but I got my laptop back

Switzerland sends in swat for noise complaints, they would definitely care about a thief that could be caught.

Is it all over or just some parts of the countries? I ask, amused, since I have never been there except a 2 day trip to Geneva in 1992 or so.

Some Kantons are more easy going than others but overall the police are not to fuck around with.

Exactly! Forgot to run your washing machine so you gonna start it later in the evening? Bam, next thing you know they are bashing in your door.

Try doing laundry on Sunday……

In Berlin, if a noise complaint was filed after 22:00, a police brigade of 2 will be dispatched, which is a good thing. They are very polite.

> most police departments won't pay the slightest bit of attention to your reports

Its sort of a combination of two reasons.

First in many cities, police departments are underfunded. And so running around looking for your stolen phone or whatever minor item is low on their to-do list compared to say, stopping the local drug-gangs from shooting their brains out.

Second, for minor thefts most insurance companies just need a quick box-tick "police crime report number" before paying out. So if the police know they can get you off their backs just by quickly giving you a report number, well....

And it's probably under your deductible anyway. And replacing various cards is your deal with your credit card etc. companies. Relatively few of us carry around a lot of cash.

> compared to say, stopping the local drug-gangs from shoting their brains out

I'm guessing people have that impression from TV, but it doesn't seem to match reality.

> the data suggests that officers spend relatively little time responding to major violent crimes: 4%, 3.7% and 4.1% in the three locations, respectively.

- https://www.freethink.com/society/how-police-spend-their-tim...

Which raises the obvious question: If they're not responding to either violent crimes or nonviolent crimes, what are they doing all day?

If they're not responding to either violent crimes or nonviolent crimes, what are they doing all day?

According to a police administrator I once knew, filling out all the endless paperwork that makes the studies possible so people can complain about what little time cops spend fighting crime.

The only times were cops were useful to me was to fill a theft report that I needed for an insurance claim.

Just like that excellent Yes Minister episode about hospitals - I imagine they have more then enough internal busywork so they have no time for their customers. Which the older am I the more this seems true.

Donuts don't just eat themselves.

administration; paperwork et al. Don't you just like the modern technical bureaucratic apparatus?

Anecdotal evidence but they spend a significant amount of time at the burger joint next to my place, while blocking the bicycle lane instead of parking legally.

>stopping the local drug-gangs from shooting their brains out.

Thats a good thing tho, its the problem(s) solving themselves.

Thankfully you were in Switzerland rather than the states, I just never see American police caring about that.

The police in Spain will also not care, in my experience. They acted completely helpless regardless of how much information I gave them.

My solution now is to travel very light.

Switzerland is the Singapore of Europe (I mean this in a good way!) - the state just functions in a way that other European countries can only dream of

I spent a couple of years in Lausanne so am aware. Swiss police don't mess around, you need to follow the rules if you want to live there.

Can confirm. Things just work in Switzerland. It’s a tough change to live/go back elsewhere.

I grew up in the US, live in Italy now, and just spent a few weeks in Switzerland. It felt constricting. I missed a bit of the chaos - particularly while driving.

To each their own.

Yes, I miss the chaos of securing myself riding on Roman subways.

> the state just functions in a way that other European countries can only dream of affording being able to

I have fixed that for you.

That affordability is closely related with fiscal policy...

And morality and their conscientiousness (what a word).

If you look at the map of Europe, lay it over with that fiscal discipline and above, there is no mystery how things like income are spread out across the map, it all makes sense. Also a good confirmation that well regulated but proper capitalism is the easiest path for any country to long term prosperity.

Public spending per capita in switzerland is less than the UK

My car got broken into in Oakland, California. Multiple pieces of luggage stolen (yes, my fault for leaving it in the car in the first place). Luckily I had an AirTag that showed the exact location of the stolen items. I called the police but they said they couldn't do anything. Apparently, even if I had the location the thief would have to invite them in. Regardless, I was put on a waiting list, they finally called me back 3 days later. I promptly left the state a few months later.

>Apparently, even if I had the location the thief would have to invite them in.

I mean, isn't that good? 4th amendment, warrants from a judge, and all that.

Presumably they could easily get a warrant with that information, if they cared to ask.

Victim meets with police, signs affidavit, prosecutor goes to judge with affidavit, warrant written specifically for those items only. Should be simple and even digital if we wanted it to be.

An airtag alone will never be enough for a search warrant. They are not accurate enough and don't prove any actual crime was committed (maybe someone found your looted backpack in the trash). If there was security camera footage of the theft or you knew the thief and the cops could verify where they lived, that could likely be enough.

I guess the question would be how easy it is to fake this evidence. I don't know this tech. Could I throw my airtags in someone's bag and just take that to the police station and say look here on my phone, that's where my bags are, and then it's a he said/she said? Then the airtags aren't really adding anything to just your word "they took my bag".

It's not your fault for leaving your property in your car. Wild to say that.

I imagine they see it the way I do: the SF Bay Area has thieves like this because it's part of local native culture. You get the good with the bad. Sort of like going to the elephant graveyard and being eaten by hyena pack. Sure, it's not your fault for walking around graveyard and getting eaten by hyena. But this is where hyena is. I have lost (and sometimes recovered) many items to these hyena. Ultimately, they are not people or anything. They're like hyena. You don't say it is fault of hyena. It is animal and local culture is animal lover. Why stress about it? Like many, GP decided that he leave hyena here and go elsewhere where it is people and not animal.

But the thieves actually are people, not "wildlife". And there is no reason to tolerate this kind of quality-of-life crime. Nobody is better off for it.

One way or the other, local culture is to do this. Yes, I agree it’s a negative sum choice. But they like it. It’s the same school of thought where a prison abolitionist didn’t report her gang rape: https://www.thenation.com/article/society/why-i-didnt-report...

It’s a coastal elite view.

As for whether they’re people and not wildlife as you put it, I suspect I’m more right than you are. Some of them have almost been acquitted because after killing people while robbing them it was offered as an explanation that they are too stupid to know that killing was bad.

https://sfist.com/2024/09/20/sf-jury-convicts-two-for-2017-m...

> Decuir and Mims were convicted last year of armed robbery, but a jury deadlocked on the first-degree murder charge, leading to this second trial… Attorneys also argued that she had a low IQ…

> One way or the other, local culture is to do this. Yes, I agree it’s a negative sum choice. But they like it. It’s the same school of thought where a prison abolitionist didn’t report her gang rape: https://www.thenation.com/article/society/why-i-didnt-report...

How are gangs of thieves reasonably justified as part of culture? Surely civil society frowns on theft?

I read that article and I can (somehow) appreciate an ideal of prison reform so strong that it precluded reporting a crime--I think anyway--however, I did not see an explanation of what sort of remedy or justice this practitioner of a belief "in the abolition of police and prisons" would prefer. What is the appropriate punishment for such a crime? This is missing in the perspective presented. There is a description of a want for the perpetrator to change but no mechanism described for forcing the person to begin to change, just a reconciliation that every situation is different enough to avoid prescribing a template solution.

In the theft context, tolerating people that steal seems to enable theft. Humans can reason and are a product of the choices they've made. One ideal of the courts is exposure to alternatives, in the case of your deadlocked murder case, there are annoying factors from my arm chair: perhaps first-degree was too high a bar, the use of IQ in a legal setting in 2023 is annoying because without knowing how it was measured it should be assumed culturally biased and pointless, what levels of decision making abrogate personal responsibility--in managing a disease or making choices that lead to finding oneself in a particular setting. The resulting life in prison without parole sentence is probably just, but as with the Las Vegas story, I think that's up to those most affected by the crime to decide.

> How are gangs of thieves reasonably justified as part of culture? Surely civil society frowns on theft?

Theft is considered acceptable in coastal elite culture so long as it is from a multi-store chain. I haven't yet figured out how many stores transforms a chain from independent (theft-unacceptable) to corporate (theft-permitted, perhaps even encouraged). It is somewhat underspecified but at a sufficiently franchised operation, it is considered moral to steal.

> The resulting life in prison without parole sentence is probably just, but as with the Las Vegas story, I think that's up to those most affected by the crime to decide.

In this case, the person most affected did not make a statement as to his intended outcome. This is probably because he was killed in the commission of his crime, but we have no peer-reviewed studies that have proven that so we must consider it speculation.

> the SF Bay Area has thieves like this because it's part of local native culture

You mean like Coast Miwok or Pomo?

I’m with you but local culture is to run arbitrary tests to see if you’re a “native” or not. The tests usually go back to high school or something.

Outside of some bad areas of some cities, in New England leaving property in cars is perfectly normal.

not "fault" in the sense of legal or ethical blame, but "fault" in the sense of stupid vs. smart thing to do

But it’s not a stupid thing to do either - if anything, normalizing crime sounds not optimal.

There’s no such thing as normalizing crime by simply taking sensible steps to protect yourself from it.

For a society that does this long term, giving away your rights is literally how crime gets normalized.

Lived in the Bay Area for over two decades. Yeah, leaving a visible item in your car is just bait for the smash-and-grab crowd.

It sucks but once you know it, it would be like thinking you can just leave your wallet sitting on a counter.

You can also do that in high-functioning societies. In Japan people leave their purses, phones, etc to hold their seat before ordering in a café, going to the bathroom, etc.

In Japan, they also had to segregate subways by sex to deter groping. And the men just got on the woman cars anyways.

High-functioning society lol.

In Japan, there's so little crime that they make an effort to crack down on things like creepshots. The desire to tackle stuff like that is more than most countries do, where it's swept under the rug and ignored.

In America, you can proudly say you grope and molest women and it's considered presidential behavior.

Love to live there but chances they'll let me are roughly 0%. It's convenient (for them) that racial discrimination isn't a crime in Japan.

The way ethnic minorities are getting treated in the US at the moment implies a race to the bottom.

How many days is it since the last state sanctioned shooting?

It’s a little more complicated than that. The subways during rush hour are packed liked sardines - nothing like the US. Groping or not, women do not want to necessarily be squished from all sides by men.

I'm pretty sure the men aren't elated about getting squished by men either.

For what it's worth, everything was in a locked truck with no visible way of seeing any items.

From what I heard from others, apparently the thieves have a device that allows them to detect electronics (I had two laptops, cellphone, and a few other devices). I'm not sure how accurate this is, but i'm not sure why my car was the only one on the street that was targeted as there were no visible signs of valuables in the car (nothing visible from windows etc.) Funny part is a few weeks later nothing was found except for my Kindle which a kind citizen found and returned to me. Apparently thieves don't like to read?

Ahem. There are neighborhoods in the US where you leave nothing in your car because otherwise your car will become a target. It's often "the rule" in these places that you also leave the doors unlocked because that way "they" won't break your window trying to get in. They open the door, see there's nothing of value to steal and move on. In other places in the US it's (still but fading) normal to leave your car doors unlocked because "everybody knows everybody and no one would steal from each other." Code switching is knowing which of the neighborhoods you are in and how to adapt.

The point of the comment is that this is not something we should have to tolerate or worry about in a seemingly high-trust society.

I totally get and respect the perspective of the parent poster, I'm just keeping it real that the US is generally not a high-trust society. If it were, we wouldn't have disclosures and disclaimers and limits of liability for everything we do all day long.

>I'm just keeping it real that the US is generally not a high-trust society.

Completely false, you mean Urban areas are not high trust.

I live in a place (In the US) where kids walk to school, don't lock bikes and our downtown has free umbrellas to take and give back whenever there is rain.

It 100% is if you live in or operate in a high crime area known for vehicle break-ins. Like OP of the comment.

Sure but in a less broken society thieves would be apprehended and theft risk would be low. Instead the police do nothing and honest people live like a school of fish trying not to stick out for fear of the nearly-authorized property theft rampant in SF.

In many parts of the world, including major cities, it would be okay to leave your belongings in a locked car.

Cool, leave your MacBook on the front seat then.

I regularly leave my backpack with my laptops in it in the front seat of my car in the south US and nothing has ever happened in ten years of doing this.

It's crazy to me other people just live with this. Dramatic action is needed and possible.

Same. I try to remember to lock the door if I'm in a bigger city.

I don't own the key to my house, it's not something we think about here (US, south).

Shared this in another comment, but my luggage was in a locked truck, nothing visible from the back windows. They broke in by smashing the windows, unlocking the door and using the latch to fold the back seats down to expose the trunk.

I grew up in a small city in the US and was taught early on to never leave any property in view in your car. The US also has a worse issue than other parts of the world because people often leaves guns in their cars.

did you feel really smart putting that totally made up "because people often leaves guns in their cars" in there?

> did you feel really smart putting that totally made up "because people often leaves guns in their cars" in there?

I can’t tell if you think people obviously do leave guns in their car, and GP should know better than add the phrase in, or, that nobody does, and GP should know better.

I can tell you have seen people do both in different parts of the country.

Not made up at all. In large parts of the US people leave guns in their cars all the time. It ends becoming one of if not the largest source of stolen guns.

https://everytownresearch.org/report/gun-thefts-from-cars-th...

You obviously didn't Google this, since there are states in America where the people are PROUD to show off the guns and gun racks in their trucks. Yes, they proudly display these guns. (Texas, looking at you)

Why does people leaving guns in cars make the stealing worse?

Because the thief gets a gun.

Sorry, let me rephrase to what I meant: why does it make it a more common problem?

Guns are a high value item that can then be used anonymously to commit further crimes later on.

I grew up in a small town and we didn't even lock the doors to our home. Never had anyone come and steal anything.

Fault doesn’t necessarily imply guilty. People need to understand that. “I should have known better” means while I am not guilty of what happened to me, I could have avoided it by not doing X. So, the real world is messy, and next time I will ac accordingly for my own good.

It is not smart to die or have your things subtracted just because you want to make a point of how things should be, a point that nobody will care about.

I often like to highlight the difference words that we tend to smush together and treat as synonymous.

For example, something can be your responsibility but not your fault, or vice-versa. Responsibility is literally just the duty to respond.

I generally believe it is not a crime victim's fault for being a victim of a crime, and the police services need to stop saying things that perpetrate this mindset.

> (yes, my fault for leaving it in the car in the first place).

It's not your fault. It's California's fault for tolerating a culture of criminality.

>the thief would have to invite them in

it wasn't your mistake calling them, but be thankful you escaped: those police were apparently vampires.

I'm sure if you were to "take your gun" to where the AirTag is located, the police would care a ton more.

Depends on the jurisdiction.

One time I was driving down a twoo-lane road with a police car a few hundred feet behind me. An oncoming pickup truck veered several feet over the center line and almost hit me. I flagged the police down to tell them and they were nonplussed even though they literally saw it happen. Drunk driving, a greater threat than property theft, was of little consequence to them.

On the other side of the country my motorcycle got stolen and the police found it the next day. I picked it up from the tow yard shortly thereafter.

YMMV.

America is weirdly nonplussed by destruction and deaths caused by a car.

checkmate, Airtag on my bicycle.

Unrelated to airtags but last year a couple wheels were stolen off my brand new car. My city in California falls under county sheriff jurisdiction and they actually assigned a detective to the case.

Sadly even once he got the subpoena and other paperwork to track down the criminals through Facebook (they had listed my wheels two weeks later on Marketplace) he couldn't find them since they were using VPNs.

I was robbed at a gas station in Jersey City and the police retrieved the airtagged backpack in 20 minutes. The police was fantastic.

My friend/colleague had her phone stolen while she was napping in the hospital room of her terminally ill husband. Fortunately it had MDM. Called Palo Alto PD, I sat with them and tracked it from the hotel and it was already in San Jose. They worked with SJPD live and walked them into the guy who happened to be in a parking garage peering into cars. Caught him with a backpack full of stolen phones.

The stereotype of US cops not caring isn't always true.

Unfortunate fact for the perp was the ill husband was a US Attorney and stealing his phone made it a big boy federal felony that was not looked kindly upon by the colleagues of a dying AUSA in the Northern District. I wonder if he's still in FCI Lompoc.

Oh yeah, justice in the free and best country in the world. Prisons are hell on earth, so after his release, he will murder first person on sight and he will be back in no time.

So smart.

blink You OK there bud?

So? Let him roam freely, consequences free? What about we execute him on the third strike if you think prison is not good enough?

> Prisons are hell on earth, so after his release, he will murder first person on sight and he will be back in no time

> So smart

What should have been done instead?

Sounds like you also support a life sentence here for stealing a phone, too!

That's awesome. I'm glad that trackers have reached a price point, reliability and form factors that I can easily put one in everything I care about. I even have card ones in my wallet, my steam deck / e-reader case, etc.

Also, most of these have usb-c / wireless charging, so I don't have to mess with random cell batteries every 6 months.

Given that the battery in my Airtag lasts about a year, I'd rather have to exchange a CR2032 once per year than to buy a new tracker whenever the built-in rechargeable battery inevitably dies. (I think there are actually rechargeable CR2032s too – best of both worlds?)

There are, and I got cursed with a BMW that uses one of them. Eventually after 10+ years it finally dies, and it's basically impossible to replace and actually make it work again, so I just have to replace the 2032 in it every few months.

Oh, is that what they use in their wirelessly recharging key fobs? I've always wondered what happened if the car were to outlive the key.

My Dad shipped a M car overseas a decade ago. The is fine. The keys are dead.

Since the islands he now lives on has no BMW presence they want him to ship the car back to get new keys.

FWIW, there's https://a.co/d/gOk1RkB which takes an airtag and AA batteries, and should need replacement in 10 years. Unless they make BMWs a lot smaller where you are, you can fit it somewhere. Now I just need a retailer that sells speakerless airtags.

Back in 2011 (!) I went to a wedding in Denia, a medium-sized town on the Mediterranean coast of Spain.

The day after the wedding we went to a restaurant by the sea to have some hangover paella, part of the wedding celebrations. Weddings in Spain are usually 2 or 3 day affairs. Anyway, since we were travelling back to Madrid later that day we left our luggage in the trunk of the car, not visible from the outside. We locked the doors and off for paella.

Or so we thought: some bad guys were jamming the car key frequencies so the car didn’t actually lock. They hit jackpot with my bag: my Canon IXUS camera (I loved that camera), my Kindle 3G, my MacBook Pro and my iPad… with 3G.

When we found out later that day we went to the local Guardia Civil and told them the story. I opened “Find My” on my phone and told them exactly where the bad guys were, all the way in Valencia already.

You should have seen the face of the two-days-shy-from-retiring officer when I told him that my iPad was connected to the internet and broadcasting its location continuously. Remember this was 2011.

So they sent a police car to check out the area and found a suspiciously hot car. They noted it down and did some old-fashioned policing the rest of the summer. Two months later I got a call: they had found them and waited on them to continue stealing using the same MO, until they had a large enough stash that they could be charged with a worse crime.

They had found my bag, my MacBook and my iPad. The smaller items had already been sold on the black market.

It still is one of my favourite hacker stories. I went to court as a witness and retold the whole thing. The look on the judge’s face was also priceless.

Similar story for me. Except in Rome, and the ending wasn't happy because all I could do is watch my wife's iPhone go to Tunisia where it disappeared.

Still, in those very early days of "Find my" I could see how this was going to eventually change things.

Simlar (sad) story in Spain, very recent. Airtags and Find My are known by police by now. When my friends bag was stolen, he located it on the police station via Find My. It was located in a residential multi-story house nearby, which was known by the police. The place is known to house several members of organized petty crime. Police told him they cannot do anything as they can't enter the house without a warrant and won't get one just based on his testimony.

Yup, that’s how it is sadly, happens every day in Barcelona. Once it’s inside a building they can’t do anything.

The criminals know this as well, of course.

As opposed to the UK police, who can't do anything once it's... anywhere.

Yeah, or the police in my state capital, who, when I got confirmation that my stolen phone was being sold on eBay, by a seller who lived near me, whose eBay profile contained nearly 100 phones, and 50-60 laptops, all 'without chargers/accessories", some "activation locked", etc., as well as the strong implication of theft on eBay (I was actually contacted by someone who'd bought my phone from him, and when he discovered it was locked, with my info on the screen, contacted the seller who initially refused a return/refund on it, until the buyer said "So you know, if you don't, the phone is actually telling me who the real owner was, and how to contact them, and I can send them and/or the police your info..."), the police said:

Police: "Well, he probably didn't steal it himself."

Me: "Isn't selling known stolen property a crime in itself?"

Police: ...

Me: ...

Police: "We're not going to pursue this further."

Thank you for your service?

This is why I never understand the expansion of surveillance tech and how people believe it will make us safer. So many people have these types of stories and how does expanded surveillance solve those problems? The police already know a crime has been committed, who did it, where they are, and we need more surveillance?!

The trick is making the criminal by law responsible to pay the costs of the investigation.

Now the cops and judge have an incentive to actually prosecute, since it generates their funding.

Now it only costs them money.

I would agree with that, but then you have the situation of "how?" - I volunteered for an organization that had a large part of their funds embezzled by the Treasurer. When they were arrested and charged with theft, the prosecutor came to an association meeting and asked what our thoughts were. The person had sufficient income that they could reasonably pay back the money in a (relatively) quick time frame, and the prosecutor noted that "in these types of cases, often the victim has to choose between retribution/punishment, and recompense" - not that we were choosing his punishment, but he was asking our input.

As in - he could afford to pay if his job was kept, etc. But charge him with the felony, he would likely lose that job and the ability to repay anything in any meaningful manner.

Then you have the State of Florida, who charges you $75/day if you are in jail at all, regardless of the outcome of your case, charges being dropped or dismissed. You could be arrested for a BS traffic stop on Friday, the prosecutor drops it on Monday morning, three days incarceration. Or a not guilty finding. Doesn't matter.

And then, failure to pay this is a Class B Felony.

You could let the victims decide, or make it (depending on the type of crime) that they first pay off the debt and then go to prison (perhaps with reduced sentence) or the other way around.

I think you're oversimplifying. Those are hard questions to answer and have the impacts extend beyond the victim and perpetrator. There are social costs to each of those decisions. Part of the legal system is to ensure there is that balance. That is the social contract. Determining if this is done effectively (or even at all) is a different question, but one that can only be answered through answering a million smaller questions like this one.

Of course it’s difficult. But simply not holding them responsible at all for the costs they incur on society, and not making police and judges at least partially responsible for actually solving cases or ensuring recidivism is reduced is also not an option.

How is it just his testimony if they can literally locate the device to the location?

That’s just ‘oh, my poor back’.

Did you tell them that you have a particular set of… tags?

> I called the Zurich Police and, as the thief kept moving, I told them where he was. Twenty minutes later I received a call from the police informing me that they had found my suitcase with my belongings, matching the description I had given.

So refreshing to hear. Here in the UK the police would be annoyed by your call and at best would give you crime ref number (usually after mentioning that you will file a complaint if they don't) to take up with your insurance provider.

yeah this should be the standard, same here in Australia unfortunately the police will just pretend to care by taking more information and then does nothing.

I had a camera stolen on a Zürich streetcar and when I reported it to the police they acted like it was the first crime that had ever been reported in the canton, a very serious matter indeed.

When I lived in London, I once came across a criminal operation that was producing fake documents, in what looked like substantial quantities. British & foreign driving licences, National Insurance cards, passports, ID cards etc. Not especially high-quality, but still.

Try as I might, I could not get the Metropolitain Police interested. From Royal Mail tracking numbers, I was able to figure out which post office the docs were being sent from. I took a pile of those fake docs to a large police station literally across the street from the post office. Got a crime reference number and was told to keep the docs. :)

In Zürich, I once came off my bicycle. No one else involved, no damage to anything except myself. The police were on the scene six minutes later (they responded when a helpful passer-by called for an ambulance). Offered to take my bicycle for safekeeping while I was in hospital, which was jolly nice of them. :)

I need to applaud the efficiency and moxie of the Zurich / Swiss police service.

In America, the UK, Canada, etc they'd tell you to fill out a report that nobody would ever read, and also advise you it's probably unsafe to go pick it up yourself.

In certain places in America. My county sheriff's office would be more than happy to have something to do that isn't picking up somebody's stray dog. I'm sure this is true for the UK and Canada too.

I called the non-emergency line for the local police department when someone went home with my wallet after I left it on a plane, tracked with an AirTag. 2 hours later an officer said they didn't have probable cause but could knock on the door and ask anyway. I think he basically offered for there to be no trouble if they gave it back, thief claimed they were "going to return it to lost and found", and sure enough I was able to go show my passport at the station and collect it the next day.

>I'm sure this is true for the UK

No, it isn't. The police in the UK are stretched extremely thin.

Just claim they have been mean on twitter and they will send a squad

Not any more, they have been rowing back from that.

UK police is more interested in combating wrong thought

Absolutely not the case. This is just what overly online people think.

It is the case in reality. We are talking about an objectively measurable outcome, and delusional thinking from the propaganda victims does not change it.

Tbf, it's not the case that they are more worried about wrongthink because they're just not worried at all by petty theft - or almost any other instance of micro-criminality.

Would you believe me if I said the police aren't worried about it because even if they put in the effort and catch thieves, they won't be prosecuted very hard. Since 2014, "low-value shoplifting" (under £200) in England and Wales can only be tried in the Magistrate's court and have a maximum sentence of 6 months (now ~1 year since 2024), no matter how many summary offenses you're convicted of. So if you steal under £200 of stuff, hundreds of times over, it's the same outcome. You'll be back on the street very soon.

The government is currently seeking to amend that:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/crime-and-policin...

> The bill will remove the perceived immunity granted to shop theft of goods to the value of £200 or less, by repealing Section 22A of the Magistrates’ Court Act 1980 and the legislation that inserted it (section 176 of Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014).

> This will ensure that all offences are tried as ‘general theft’ (an either way offence with a maximum custodial sentence of seven years), instead of summarily in the magistrates’ court, unless the defendant elects for jury trial

"Either-way" here means that the offence can be tried either as a summary or indictable offence; an indictable offence can carry much more serious penalties.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/12/section/176

> 22A (1) Low-value shoplifting is triable only summarily.

I don't disagree, and I would add that the court system is so clogged up that one might not even end up behind bars at all - because by the time the hearing is finally scheduled, the perp might well be on another continent.

Still, the public would appreciate some effort - if anything to actually get some of their stuff back, if not to inconvenience thieves.

There's a recent video of a woman getting arrested, not for the first time, for admitting that she might be praying to herself inside her head, silently.

Here's an article I searched up about it: https://adfinternational.org/news/uk-christian-woman-crimina...

(outside an abortion facility)

Yes, the place she thought needed her prayers.

How is that important?

What are your views on abortion?

I believe in free access. I also believe those going to get an abortion shouldn’t be impeded by protesters in the immediate vicinity when getting their healthcare.

Do you believe God was listening to the prayers and influencing the people at the abortion clinic? From what I read the lady was standing there and not blocking free access. The law says you may not influence.

> Do you believe God was listening to the prayers and influencing the people at the abortion clinic?

No, the woman was there tying to influence other women’s healthcare, something she had no right to get involved in.

Edit: The police did screw this up - the clinic was closed. She also received a payout.

Framing this as ‘thought police’ is wrong, the issue was her presence.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gze361j7xo

She was standing alone, across the street, on the curb/grass next to the sidewalk, kind of doing a homer simpson into the bushes.

There were no other people visible, she made no noise.

She didn't impede anyone, and it would have been very difficult to tell she was protesting, if that's in fact what she was doing (I'm not her, so I don't know).

I don't believe in God, so those particulars (or that it was an abortion clinic) aren't important to me. She was arrested for thinking silently to herself.

Because there is a law against people impeding or trying to influence people within 150 meters of an abortion clinic. Her admitted goal was trying to influence people entering. Will her defense be that she does not believe prayer has an influence on the world?

Most would agree that 150 people standing in front of the abortion clinic would obviously an attempt to impede or influence people. What if someone stands there "praying" but really noting faces and license plates for future harassment? Where does the law draw that line?

The ADF is a discriminatory, corrosive organization that has done real harm to millions by rolling back civil rights in the US, and now they have taken their agenda internationally.

The hypocrisy of calling this a "thought crime" is stunning. ADF is the same organization that brought a case against a Colorado law that banned discrimination against LGBTQ businesses, because a baker was worried she may have to bake a cake for a gay wedding - which she was never asked to do. So some thoughts are legally protected (prayer) while others (concern) are justifications to roll back civil rights. But the thoughts of others (terror and shame while entering an abortion clinic, feelings when discriminated against, love for a same sex partner) are irrelevant and not worthy of protection.

Their stated purpose is "advancing every person’s God-given right to live and speak the truth" - but only "live" and speak the "truth" that they deem to be correct, based on their evangelical and politically-charged interpretation of Christianity. And they want that legislated.

Oh for gods sake, can we stop this nonsense mad twitter trope spreading through HN. Having been a cop in the UK, we will happily got nick a robber if they're on the move and tell us where they are, and we don't arrest people for "wrong thought" on twitter unless that happens to be repeatedly messaging your ex and telling her about how you're going to do murder them.

yes, some of my stupid colleagues will once in a blue moon arrest people for twitter nonsense, but that barely ever happens which is why it makes the news and they pretty much never get convicted.

In Canada the police are pretty lazy and it's mostly due to who they hire, and also a LOT of political garbage as it's a federal police force throughout the country in most cases -- run from Ottawa.

Not much real police work happening any more unless you criticize the government or do something they can use as a reason to grow their budgets or otherwise further political agendas.

If there is a video of a crime they do like that...easy! Also they can show it to media for props.

Lazy cops just love centralized 'social' media and the fools who post their lives on it for them to snoop through.

>once in a blue moon

>look inside

>12000 arrests a year

https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2025/09/09/people-a...

> county sheriff

I take it you live somewhere roughly in the middle of nowhere?

I take it you know roughly nothing about how the world works?

Even New York City has a county sheriff.

https://www.nyc.gov/site/finance/sheriff-courts/sheriff.page

If by the world you mean America, then yes. One really only hears about sherifs in westerns and florida man videos.

If, by your own admission, you don't know anything about America, why would you post a snarky personal attack like that?

Go rage-post on Reddit. HN is supposed to be better.

Yeah, fair point. Too much rage inducing news lately I guess.

Saying "i am getting my gun and going to retrieve my stuff" guarantees that 6-8 police cars will converge on the location within minutes. Once there, they will apprehend the thief since they are there already.

Sounds like a great way to get charged with making false statements to the police or something along those lines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements

Not at all. I had intent to do so, which is what I said, then thought about it, realized it was dangerous, and didn't.

Legal genius.

Sounds like a great way to end up with criminal charges. Try it, try your luck.

Then you’re fucking comically unlucky, there’s a shooting and some old enemy offs someone at the same address and flee, minutes before the police gets there.

Some pissed off riff-raff family member decides that you look like the killer.

You’d better have a top notch lawyer in your family or prepare to spend lots of money hiring one.

If you're really concerned about that you could go to a local bar and call from there. Make sure you have the attention of the bartender while making the call. Easy alibi, the bartender won't forget something like that

I think the idea isn't to really bring a firearm into the situation, it is just to tell the cops that you are considering doing so.

Which, in your hypothetical "you might get extremely unlucky" scenario, should give you no problem, since you never had a firearm on you in the first place.

I love getting diverted from the violent domestic call to turn up to a theoretical firearms call and find out it was just someone trying to be clever.

What? As someone who has worked in emergency services, with a brother-in-law who was a 911 dispatcher in a capital city for 10 years, what dispatching prioritization system puts "violence in progress" lower than "threat of violence", unless the cops are bored and just want to roll their SWAT team at the slightest provocation?

That's not a common occurrence, police in Switzerland is highly passive, and the judiciary system is highly complicit with criminals (drug dealers,thieves, white collar crimes etc), and against women (rape victims can be told to close their legs better by judges).

Care to back up your outlandish claims? I live here for 15 years and all you write is completely untrue for everything I ever experienced, saw, heard or read. Or you mean some case from early 70s?

Just in the last few years https://www.blick.ch/fr/suisse/proces-pour-viol-dans-les-gri...

https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/14523420-polemique-autour-dun...

And when you take the train, have a baby, and land on this fucked up article https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/sodomie-infantile-un-film-choc... you know the country is fucked up.

https://www.rts.ch/info/regions/vaud/2025/article/comedien-v... 4years for a teacher raping his teens students.

Should I start talking about the different train stations and all the drug dealers or drug users ?

If they had said this happened in the US I would absolutely not believe them.

Last year here in Chicago my wife's bike was stolen overnight. It has an airtag hidden in a bell on the handlebars. When we woke up and noticed it was missing, we traced it to a park not too far away. We ran over there and called the Chicago PD who showed up in <10min. We told them a description of the bike and showed where FindMy said it was. They went and retrieved it. Surprisingly happy ending & I was impressed the Chicago PD were so helpful!

My local police would literally laugh at me if I made that call.

Reminds me of a Big Lebowski scene. That is surprising because it is an easy win for them. They would be all after it.

I have recollection of french police using civilian appearance to collect a bike thief in a meetup between him and the bike's original owner presenting himself as a buyer.

Leads ?!

yes that one :D

Didn't they start chirping and alert the thief?

The anti-stalking measures with AirTags, while we all recognize why they're in place, also greatly reduce their value as anti-theft devices. I've gouged the speakers out of a few and hidden them in my vehicles, but if Apple makes that impossible to do with the new generation... no sale.

That only happens after 24 hours and only if the tag has been continuously traveling with an iPhone present.

that works with Android too

haha do that in the States and the police will tell you to go F yourself.

Funny story: I actually forgot my backpack in the train at Zurich HB and it went to Basel and back again to Zurich HB, where I was able to get from the train. All the while I was nervously looking at Find My, seeing it travel and just hoping it wouldn’t be stolen.

Same story in Bulgaria. A backpack with an iPhone and an iPad was stolen from a car. Had to go to the police department to file a written complaint. Weeks after that the devices were still visible in FindMy but police could not identify and catch the thieves.

So, airtags/findmy are good, but then it is up to the police to get their job done. I guess Switzerland and Bulgaria are different :)

I wish I had this in the early 2000s. The theft of my carry-on bags flying with Alitalia turned out to be an organized crime ring of flight attendants and ground crew. They didn’t get caught until 2013, the whole rotten lot. Never flown with Alitalia since then.

> The new AirTag is designed with the environment in mind, with 85 percent recycled plastic in the enclosure, 100 percent recycled rare earth elements in all magnets, and 100 percent recycled gold plating in all Apple-designed printed circuit boards. The paper packaging is 100 percent fiber-based and can be easily recycled.

I'm no material scientist, but this seems pretty impressive to me that Apple's economy of scale can pull this off, and upgrade the device capabilities, for less than $30 USD.

Building an attachment point into the tag itself is still beyond current technology though. We just don't know how to do it.

Different people want different attachment types (or no attachment point at all), so it makes sense for that to be external. I've used other trackers with integrated attachment points, and because the attachment point has to be very compact it tends to be flimsy or hard to fit.. vs the Apple one where you can add a larger attachment point that makes sense to you.

Are you trying to say that the AirTag is so strictly utilitarian, that they couldn’t have found a spot for a lanyard hole?

I disagree, they could have, they didn’t want to. Beyond the look, this sure panders to their accessory partners.

How big of an industry is the phone case? Should it even exist? The audacity.

Somebody take an x-ray so where know where to drill our own holes.

Already been done

https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/02/x-rays-show-how-a...

> For the initial disassembly, the AirTag is said to be the hardest to open to access the battery. Though all three could be opened by hand, the AirTag is suggested to be the hardest due to the lack of divots for grip.

Does the author lack thumbs? It’s easy to twist the battery open.

The lack of a divot prevents iFixit from selling an overpriced single use tool that exactly matches the divot shape for $50 USD that just so happens to be the exact same shape and material as a $0.05 guitar pick. Totally unacceptable, won't anyone think of the environment?!?!?!?!

This! The humble guitar pick is an underrated tool. Everybody should have some on them at all times.

I get some AirTags opened easily and others are harder. We have more than ten AirTags in the family and I have experienced quite a range of torque and force required. This could be because of gunk over time, though, which wouldn’t be something these guys faced.

Yes, the phone case industry should exist. People want different things. Plenty of people are willing to go without a case entirely. For those who want a case, they want different tradeoffs between bulk and protection. They want different textures. It's OK to sell something that isn't all things to all people.

Right? Nokias had the equivalent of today's "case" built right into the design of the unit, plenty of durable plastic around the vulnerable parts -- the phone would've been considered unfit for sale if it couldn't survive a drop in out-of-the-box condition.

By the time you stripped a dumbphone down to be as vulnerable as one of today's is, it'd be a bare PCB. Nah, probably even in that state, I bet it could handle a drop better than a new iPhone straight out of the box.

What you buy today isn't a complete phone, it's just the guts. One tumble to pavement and you're out a grand. Heaven help you if you fumble it while trying to install the case that should've been part of it from the beginning.

And yet, we still buy them, because the alternatives are from shady manufacturers who never provide updates, and there is no third-party hardware that can run up-to-date iOS. If there was, I'd buy an iNokia in a heartbeat.

I dropped my flagship Samsung S24U one time. I was running and it slipped out of my back pocket.

That 1 meter fall resulted in calls unable to be placed, USB charging and ABD does not work, and the microphone for the voice recorder does not work. All that indicates that the daughterboard cable was displaced. But the unworking rear camera indicates that there is a second fault in there as well.

Not to mention the alarmingly large dent in the corner, that shattered the screen protector and likely would have resulted in the screen itself having shattered if no protector were on it.

New phones are designed to break. Contrast with my Note 3 that I carried for 8 years without so much as cracking the screen once.

I'm carrying my 13 Pro without a case, to see it's Alpine Green glory and feel the matte finish on the back. It's been perfectly fine for the last almost 4 years, some minor scratches on the steel edges I fixed with a sandpaper, there is one recent scratch on the screen and that's all. Otherwise it looks good, just a bit used. Has fallen multiple times from pocket when sitting, and a dozen times from tables, few times onto pavement (that's what needed sanding).

Almost every single one "case" for iPhone is a waste. Waste of material, waste of space, waste of your money, waste of user experience. You've already paid for a perfectly good phone, and then slapped some $[1]0.99 case on it to gain nothing but pain and vanity.

I only had one case on a phone, that made it better - original wooden case for 1+3T. Been looking for same experience on iPhone, but it's not possible due to shape -- they are all bulky. The closest thing is carbon-fiber cases, and I had one, which saved this iPhone when I dropped it onto slanted pavement, where it slid for a few meters screen down, ruining the case, but saving the screen.

Would I drop it if I wasn't using a case, that has parts sticking out, making the phone more cumbersome to use and carry? Unlikely, because it happened in the first year owning it, and I've been going caseless since then and nothing similar happened.

If the iPhone wouldn't wobble so much and so loudly when putting it on a table I'd go caseless too. Hoping for the fold to improve on that aspect.

There are third-party tags out there compatible with both Google and Apple's network that is roughly the same size and use the same battery, yet have a giant lanyard opening in the design to fit anything.

Apple could trivially have fit a usable hole if they wanted to. They just don't want to because they get to sell accessories with that now. Also, looking cleaner on its own helps sell even if that is an entirely useless quality for a tag tha tneeds to go into a bloody case.

Do the third-party tags have all the same features, size, capabilities, range, durability, etc.? Or have they made other tradeoffs instead of eliding the attachment point?

Nothing related to the attachment point.

I don't know of any third-party AirTag-compatible trackers that have UWB right now, but this applies equally to tags that are much larger than the AirTag. The rest is identical - good battery life, range, loud speaker, ...

I have a few theories on the lacking UWB:

1. Given that UWB is also super slow to roll out to Google Find, with only the Moto Tag available, there might be a technical/regulatory hurdle that manufacturers don't think is worth it

2. Apple/Google might make it a pain to be allowed to integrate with their UWB stuff

3. Cost - maybe the UWB stack is comparatively expensive, with third-party tags aiming for price brackets as low as 1/0th the cost of an AirTag

As a note, I don't know if this is because of regional differences in spectrum limits, but at least with AirTag and Moto Tag v1 EU versions, I could never get UWB to give any meaningful directions until I was already staring at the thing. Once you were in range to even consider UWB, playing a sound would be way more effective.

I'm pleasantly surprised Apple allows third-party manufacturers to make trackers that work with Find My. I've bought a bunch for as low as $2 per tracker. The only missing feature, like you mentioned, is missing UWB.

this is the smallest attachment loop i've found. It's rock solid https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09CPTS8JG?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_...

I use quite a few varieties, including Apple's, and I have found Belkin’s to be an ideal one — small, secure, with a minimal footprint, and available with a keyring or a lanyard.

https://www.belkin.com/p/secure-holder-with-key-ring-for-air...

That costs more than the AirTag itself.

Hmmm! Nope, it was not. Checking the website again, it says $12.99 for one and $39.99 for the 4-pack. I remember picking up two of the 4-pack for less than the 4-pack of AirTags (including the sales tax in California).

For some reason, though, it is cheaper in the Indian Amazon. Right now, they are selling for roughly $9.70 (₹889) a piece (all taxes inclusive).

Yes, these are the best of the bunch. Sturdy too, have had one on my keychain for years now.

Dude... not cool to put your Amazon `ref` link in there....

It's not theirs, internal Amazon stuff. Also, plug for Firefox and the Copy Clean Link function.

Yeah &ref= is for analytics, affiliate referrals use &tag=.

But I got my pitchfork out and everything! How dare someone try and make money to pay their bills!

That attachment loop costs more per unit than the dual-protocol tags themselves that another commentator mentioned.

The fundamental issue preventing keyring aperture integration stems from the AirTag’s reliance on inverse-phase magnetic reluctance in the structural substrate. You see, the enclosure maintains a precisely calibrated coefficient offramular expansion. Introducing a penetrative void would destabilize the sinusoidal depleneration required for proper UWB phase conjugation. The resulting spurving bearing misalignment could induce up to 40 millidarkness of signal attenuation. Apple’s engineers attempted to compensate using prefabulated amulite in the magneto-reluctance housing, but this only exacerbated the side-fumbling in the hyperboloid waveform generators. Early prototypes with keyring holes exhibited catastrophic unilateral dingle-arm failure within mere minutes of deployment. Until we develop lotus-o-delta-type bearings capable of withstanding the differential girdle spring modulation, I’m afraid keyring integration remains firmly in the realm of theoretical engineering—right up there with perpetual motion machines and TypeScript projects that compile without any // @ts-ignore comments. The technology simply isn’t there yet.

> attempted to compensate using prefabulated amulite in the magneto-reluctance housing, but this only exacerbated the side-fumbling in the hyperboloid waveform generators

Wrote my PhD dissertation on this. It would've been in the literature for Apple's engineers to find, but unfortunately I lost institutional support to get this into a journal after my college (Mailorderdegrees.com, an FTX University^TM) folded mid-process.

You really don’t want to accidentally frobnicate the turbo encabulator.

I must say you had me in the first couple sentences :). Also does look like it's not an LLM-generated text either. Good job!

Indeed, LLM's still suck at the cultural nuance required for humor. It's like they're writing for an audience that's too generic, so the joke doesn't truly "land" for anyone in particular.

the emdash is right there for all to see

You missed the "strategic use of metamaterials to emanate a negative refractive index"

rumors are the airtag promax has it for $99.

Sadly the polishing cloth doesn't work on that one

Of course the offramular expansion is what makes all the Fleeb Juice a key aspect of Find My. That and the lack of a substantive in the name.

Thank you Geordi.

It's all ball bearings nowadays!

Haha. That was wonderful to the very end.

Aliens fucked over the carbonator on engine four, I’m gonna try to refuckulate it and land on Juniper

tldr: users just keep holding Airtags wrong.

Most people don't even realise the original AirTags were designed by Ria Paschelle, inventor of the statiophonicoxyogeneticamplifiergraphaphonerdelaverberator.

I think the point is to make the smallest unit of functionality possible and then people can integrate that into their use case using attachments, casings, etc. in a way they see fit. It's a good approach for this product in my opinion.

This might also explain why the first party luggage loop accessory seems to have been (unfortunately) memory-holed. I think third parties still sell them out of excess inventory, but they've been harder to come by in recent times.

My current carry-on doesn't have large enough attachment points to easily accommodate the Apple leather case's keyring, so an updated loop would have been welcome.

Mine is duct taped inside the inner liner of the carryon that has a small zipper for cleaning.

This is the way. My AirTags are hidden in my bags/luggage.

It makes no sense to leave your AirTag attached outside. I hide mine in the most difficult to find pocket in my luggage.

No argument here.

For some reason, people feel like this should be a replacement for traditional luggage tags.

I do not understand this mindset.

I’d prefer to have a dedicated loop for my bag and the inside attachment points just aren’t big enough. I’d feel more secure if it wasn’t loose in a pocket and could easily fall out or be removed by an unscrupulous (or inattentive) airline or TSA employee.

I think this argument would work better if the AirTag in its minimal form wasn't so teardrop-shaped. It feels almost like it was designed to be difficult to integrate into other environments because it lacks any edges or openings. It ensures that anything that could hold it must be at least as big as the AirTag itself. It really confuses me why they couldn't even allow for a single small hole in its edge - it would still leave attachment up to the user, but make it far more flexible by letting people just hook it onto things. Is it because design had overpowered functionality in this product? Is it because this shape is somehow mandated by the hardware within it? It confuses me.

An Apple product in which design takes precedence over usability. Imagine that.

  > I think this argument would work better if the AirTag in its minimal form wasn't so teardrop-shaped.

That shape is symbolic of the tears of those who wish nothing more than to track where they've left their keys.

I think it’s designed around that easily replaceable and very commonly found battery.

Which is an appreciated and surprisingly un-Apple move. Despite some physical limitations this imposes, I applaud it.

> If the AirTag in its minimal form wasn't so teardrop-shaped

I'm a little confused by this, aren't AirTag basically circular discs pretty much just big enough to house a CRT2032 battery?

Form factor wise they don't look teardrop shaped at all in the pictures?

I don't have one so could just be missing something obvious here.

> I'm a little confused by this, aren't AirTag basically circular discs pretty much just big enough to house a CRT2032 battery?

Kind of. It's definitely the intention, but an AirTag is still considerably larger than the CR2032 within it [1], so they're not at a shortage of space in the shell.

As for "teardrop shape", I didn't mean to imply it had an elongated shape, but that it's rounded off on all sides, like a drop of liquid. The absence of any defined edges makes clip design harder and forces any AirTag enclosure to just act as a mini-pocket that contains the whole thing instead of having a simpler and less wasteful attachment method.

[1] https://www.macworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/airtag-b...

> Building an attachment point into the tag

To be fair, most people I know put their AirTag inside something, e.g. inner pocket of a bag.

At which point the necessity for an attachment point becomes somewhat moot.

Same. I've never seen anyone put an AirTag on a keyring.

Oh, wait...

It's useful to have an exterior one for a keyring (which credit card sized versions don't work for).

My father-in-law is a builder. It is difficult to get his attention in a magnificent space because he is lost in wonder. We were in an Apple Store together years ago and I asked him what it would cost to build an attachment point to the tag itself. I will never forget his answer… 'We can’t, we don’t know how to do it'

Its interesting to see "turbo encabulator" get love that "builder ... don't know how" doesn't get anymore, even though the former is a much more intrusive copypasta. Maybe its a function of recency and "builder" has had more recent use in various places than "turbo?"

You're getting a ton of jokey replies, in true internet fashion, but the real answer is acoustics. For it to sound as loud as it can with no visible speaker grille, it needs to be that shape with no keyring holes.

And the result is that for every oh-so-sustainable AirTag sold, a keyring doohickey is dieseled/kerosened from AliExpress' China warehouse to the consumer.

How does that compare to previous AirTag? Whats the industry baseline for all of those, maybe gold is 100% recycled anyways in most products?

This is a great question. For example, the Pixel 10 has a similar recycling profile, although with less recycled plastic.

This is just green washing on the level of “93.65% natural ingredients”.

This is just green washing on the level of “93.65% natural ingredients”.

I keep seeing products in the supermarket with big "Made with REAL ingredients!" labels on them.

As opposed to what? Imaginary ingredients?

Classico pasta sauce is the most recent offender.

Chemicals. That’s what they mean by real ingredients: no chemicals.

Like orange juice: can be from a chemical powder or real oranges.

But that's total nonsense. Everything in our physical world (including water, air, food, and human bodies) is made of chemicals. They can be naturally occurring or artificially manufactured.

You can nitpick and be pedantic about the wording I used, but if you equate artificial flavors or ingredients with natural ones…

Is it really pedantic? Everything is ultimately a chemical compound. H2O is a chemical. Where do you draw the line between "chemicals" and "not chemicals"? Is it more about what you can find in nature? You can find acetone in nature.

yeah, this is kind of a definitional example of pedantry. you probably understand what people are trying to say when they talk about "chemicals" but instead of engaging with the actual conversation, you spin off a metanarrative to pick apart the word choice as if that's directly relevant to the point they're trying to discuss.

not trying to pick on you specifically, because sure everything's a chemical, and i don't really care to fight about that, but you asked :)

"Chemical" is just a really, really vague and poor word choice. I honestly don't understand what people are trying to say when they use it. Food and chemistry are inextricably intertwined. You can't even talk about food without talking about all of the various components food is made up of. Not a single food item out there isn't made up of chemicals. Some found in nature, some created in a lab or factory process. Some healthy, some not. Some with long names, some with short names. Some have effects on food taste, longevity, appearance. Some are inert. It's really a meaningless word to use in the context of one's food.

>I honestly don't understand what people are trying to say when they use it

Like, banana-flavoured milk product vs banana yogurt - seed oil and potato starch compound with artificial flavorings vs REAL milk yoghurt with REAL banana.

It tastes different, it has different nutritional value and overall "chemical" product feels scammy because it tries to mimic proper one.

This is all about words, like, why do we use "Artificial" in Artificial Intelligence?

What is real banana? How much processing is allowed for it to be still real? Considering the selective breeding of banana, is banana even still real?

Chemical is just a bad word choice. Artificial, or ultra processed get closer to the issue. They still are vague with a lot of grey area. If you cook at home, you're also highly processing your food. The fruit in winter is likely also artificial, in some sense: Grown against the will of god/nature with pesticides, in a tent, in a climate that doesn't naturally feature them, devoid of flavour because they were artificially bred for yield, color and size, etc.

>What is real banana? How much processing is allowed for it to be still real? Considering the selective breeding of banana, is banana even still real?

This is arbitrary subjective qualifier, goes somewhere between "isoamyl acetate" flavoring chemical and organic wild forest bananas. I would subjectively say that any grown bananas is REAL while isoamyl acetate made by rectification of amyl acetate is not REAL banana.

Is Baking Powder considered a “chemical”? How about sodium bicarbonate and monocalcium phosphate?

Maybe people are simply reacting to chemical-sounding words.

Add some artificial bacon flavouring, starch and you will get "beef flavoured product" which most people would call "chemical".

I think it's actually a great example of very very important non-pedantry. The entire crux of their argument/issue is dependent on their definition of "chemicals". I would even go so far as to say it's just the nature fallacy in disguise.

With the nature fallacy, the definition (or more like the lack of) of what is natural is the entire crux of it. In both cases (natural and "non-chemical") it's the very non-defined-ness that reveals the problem with it: You cannot create a sensible definition.

For nature, what's the definition that puts "rape" and "artificial insulin" on the morally correct side?

For chemical, what's the definition that puts "fortification with iodine, flouride, or whatevers in flour" and "arsenic" on the right side?

> you probably understand what people are trying to say when they talk about "chemicals"

My understanding is that when someone complains about "chemicals" in their food, it's because they've seen something they don't understand on the ingredient list and are scared of it.

Could you describe the difference between the artificial flavour vanilin made in a lab, and the natural flavour vanilin extracted from a vanilla bean?

OK for vanilla, however most of the fruit artificial flavors are compound that have nothing to do with the elements from the natural fruit but at some point, someone in the food industry decided it tasted "similar" to the natural fruit.

For some of them, like cherry or coconuts, the artificial flavor tastes nothing like the natural flavor.

To my knowledge benzaldehyde is the most common cherry flavor, and I agree it doesn't taste much like cherries. It's also a naturally occurring compound we produce from cassia oil, and it's naturally contained in almonds, apricots, apples and cherries.

As for coconut there's Lactones, which - you guessed it - occur naturally.

> OK for vanilla, however most of the fruit artificial flavors are compound that have nothing to do with the elements from the natural fruit but at some point, someone in the food industry decided it tasted "similar" to the natural fruit.

Care to provide a source?

This is a good example of how easy it is to fool people if they don’t have their own understanding of how things work.

Highlighting this has been a priority in my parenting. My child is having a great time trying to scare friends about the dangers of the chemical dihydrogen monoxide, which is found in a surprisingly large number of manufactured foods.

Right. And wonder bread is awesome for your health.

Nobody said it was. But it's not bad because of chemicals, because all bread is created with chemicals.

As for natural versus artificial - that's also bullshit. There's many natural ingredients that are poison, and many artificial ones that are good for you.

I mean, if I eat home made fried chicken everyday, you can bet your ass I'm not gonna live very long.

Wonder Bread is horrible for your health, but it’s not because of “chemicals.”

Orange juice is also bad for your health BTW!

Asbestos is all natural.

Don't forget poison ivy, amanita mushrooms, and box jellyfish.

Cooking is chemistry anyway.

After all, Polonium is a REAL ingredient - but I would't want it in my pasta sauce...

What level of materials recycling would be required for you to not consider it green washing?

It’s a genuine question, since I don’t like Apple and agree that we buy tons of stuff we don’t really need. That said, our bicycles can’t be insured anymore, but having AirTags at least alleviates some of the angst over leaving them in public places.

Recycled plastics actually produce microplastics more than virgin plastics do. Some studies on recycled polyester garments found that they dump an additional 50% more or so into the environment than non-recycled polyester fabrics. And those non-recycled fabrics already release enormous quantities over their lifespan into the water supply and open air (via your dryer exhaust) already.

Dumb example for the sake of discussion, you could understand why recycled plutonium would not be a healthy thing to weave a sweater out of. It's less about the recycling and more about the material itself.

I’m aware, which is why we don’t buy products with recycled synthetics fabrics for our baby. Ironic, since so many brands are hellbent on promoting the recycled fiber as more sustainable.

But: the AirTag is made of hard plastic (polypropylene?) through injection moulding. I’m not sure it leaks even a tenth of what fiber would. Just a thought :)

Recycled polyester is crap, just like virgin polyester. It's just a way for brands to make it seem like they're hip and sustainable, when you're basically wearing crude oil on your body.

Plutonium is probably safer than some of the materials we do use in clothes.

If you believe Hank Green (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=325HdQe4WM4), a lot of recycled plastics aren't recycled the way I used to think they were (by shredding them, melting them down, and extruding them into new shapes). Rather, they're chemically decomposed into what's essentially raw feedstock, purified, and then re-synthesized into new polymers.

That's pretty energy intensive, to the point that it may be better to just use new feedstock (which is produced as a byproduct of oil and gas extraction). There are obviously higher-order effects to think about, but for me, plastic recycling isn't an obvious win for the environment.

Nice video, Hank is always good to watch!

I think we’ve more or less debunked plastic recycling, as nothing more but a way to make consumers feel good about purchasing things made of plastic.

We have to recycle plastic where we live — and do so happily —, but I often joke with my partner about where the plastic will end up, since she insists on first washing the plastic.

It’s never possible for things to be good with people like you. It’s not 100% recycled, which would be better. But surely, this is better than 0% recycled??

Ironically, it's worse. I just wrote another comment about this. Recycled plastics carry more toxic load and shed more (and more fragmented) microplastics into the environment. Recycled plastics only win out on carbon emissions.

Moral of the story: plastic is just not good. Avoid buying things made out of ANY kind plastic if you are going to regularly wash and mechanically agitate them. You won't eliminate 100% of washed plastic in your life, but it's surprisingly easy to get rid of 80% of it without sacrificing quality of life.

That's good to know. My understanding though is that they don't use 100% recycled plastic to prevent that? I thought the ~20% non recycled plastic was kinda "stabilizing" the whole thing but maybe that's not true

Nope that's not true. All recycled plastic is bad.

The wholesale material costs for the plastic, gold plating, and magnets is all just pennies, if that.

I'd be a little wary of these numbers as regulation around advertising these kinds of figures normally permits mass balance systems[0] (which imo is tantamount to straight-up lying).

Mass balance is better than nothing I guess, & I understand the practical challenges with going further, but ultimately it's not what's implied by the marketing.

[0] https://www.iscc-system.org/news/mass-balance-explained/

Just stating the obvious that not buying one of these things that we never seemed to need until they told us we needed it is the only way to have "the environment in mind".

Just stating the obvious that not buying one of these thing that we never seemed to need until they told us we needed it

I never thought I needed one until my wife lost her car keys, and the Fiat dealer charged $1,200 for a replacement.

And it's not even the electronics that makes them so expensive. Modern car keys aren't like the 1970's where it's just a piece of metal with the edges shaved off. Those little key cutting kiosks at Home Depot can't cope with today's complex engraving.

I have cats. I can’t count on things being where I left them.

> one of these things that we never seemed to need until they told us we needed it

Found the guy who literally never leaves his studio apartment and has thus never lost baggage, keys, etc.

This feels like a good tradeoff as far as gadgets go. It doesn’t take finding that many objects for it to make up the energy cost to manufacture the AirTag.

They do require periodic battery replacements but I imagine it’s still a net savings or pretty negligible cost. I’d love to see a more formal analysis, though.

I don't see old-gen airtags for sale on the website. Are they throwing them all out?

Apple rarely offers direct discounts of closeout or excess merchandise. Instead to clear out back stock they’ll work with partner retailers (Amazon, Best Buy, etc.) who don’t mind the brand perception associated with offering deeper discounts.

First-gen AirTags have been on sale on Amazon frequently over the last year, and they’ll probably drop the price again soon.

but then the fob also costs $30 :/

Just buy a generic Find My tracker on Amazon for about $5.

Recycled metals have always been cost effective. Recycled plastic is much more expensive than virgin plastic, but it's a very small materials cost to start with, likely totaling only a few cents.

Recycled plastic usually isn't the same quality though.

Apple have pretty good recycling processes. I think they also partner with mobile carriers on trade ins too

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/04/apple-expands-global-...

> They are then combined with scrap from select manufacturing sites and, for the first time, cobalt recovered through this process is now being used to make brand-new Apple batteries — a true closed loop for this precious material.

Do they disclose who the manufacturers are and what standards do they adhere to when recovering cobalt from scrapped batteries?

Unfortunately the anti-stalking features have made Airtag mostly useless for theft prevention. You have less than an hour to retrieve your item before the tag alerts the thief they are being tracked. I've seen it trigger as quickly as 30 minutes.

What happens after that? It goes dark? Or it just alerts the thief (stalker victim)?

It sends alerts to the thief's iPhone or Android (if you have Apple's Tracker Detect Android app) that they are being tracked within 30 to 60 minutes. It also enables the beeping so the thief can find and remove the Airtag.

If the Airtag can't reach the thief's phone, it starts chirping by itself within an 8-24 hour window.

Do you have more info about this? Never heard it before

I have only seen the Google side, just a single time when one of my Chipolos threw an alert on my passenger's Samsung.

My Chipolo certainly still works.

There are [cheap] tags being sold that are compatible with both Apple Find My and Google's Find Hub. I would rather have a dual-network device than Apple's improved model.

Would it be so difficult for Apple to put a hole in the Airtag so it could be directly attached to a keychain?

Here is an example of dual-network tags:

https://www.amazon.com/Tracker-Locator-Android-Bluetooth-Fin...

Seems like apple is licensing usage of their Bluetooth protocol/scheme via the "MFi program".

https://developer.apple.com/find-my/

> Would it be so difficult for Apple to put a hole in the Airtag so it could be directly attached to a keychain?

Yes. It is surprisingly a near impossible engineering challenge at the levels Apple hardware is being done. Have you even considered the wear and tear that a mere hole in an ABS plastic molded detail would be subjected to over the lifespan of...several years?

(Just kidding, obviously they just want to upsell their customers with extremely overpriced accessories.)

Do these tags need to be configured on both networks to support both protocols? If I own an Android device and configure it there, will Apple devices still find the tag? How does that work?

The Chipolos that I have purchased appear on my phone when first presented, then do not offer to pair to other users' Find Hubs unless I deregister.

I imagine that Airtag functionality is disabled when Find Hub configures these tags.

I have heard in the commentary here that Chipolo is now making dual-network devices, but only one can be active at a time.

Apple has a larger and more sensitive network, so uses requiring tracking quality would lean that way.

I would prefer to find a tag that can be provisioned on both networks. I don't know if any actually work that way.

I'd also like a tag that would let me take it apart and disable the speaker. For my car, that seems appropriate, if I can also find a placement location which is extremely difficult to access.

Edit: Google is saying that "they generally require switching between networks rather than operating on both simultaneously."

Thank you.

There are YouTube videos for disabling the speaker.

Some ideas for location: behind the glovebox or under the spare tire.

Do the Apple/Google "multi-tags" support the UWB precision finding from the phones?

For as inexpensive as they are, likely not.

I am planning to purchase one, cut the speaker connection, and put it in my car.

Interesting, I hadn't considered theft recovery to be a use case for Airtags before. I've only used them for "where the hell did that X go".

To be fair, you'd likely ask that exact question if your X was stolen!

Good point! But the only thieves I need to worry about are my past selves, who are always stealing time from my future self by not properly cementing the memory of where things get put down...

Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

Initially they didn’t have it, people complained, now they do, and people still complain.

Considering theft is a property crime and stalking is often a prelude to much worse, I think they made the right choice.

I'm not taking any position on this, but some data to chew on concerning the US. There are roughly fourteen million cases of larceny in the US every year, and between three and four million cases of stalking in the US every year. Rate of violence with larceny is roughly 1% whereas rate of violence with stalking averages 30%. Threats of violence with stalking occurs in about three out of every four cases, if I recall.

Of course, there is an implicit bias with measuring stalking as "peaceful" stalkers who never get caught leave no evidence. Unlike theft which always leaves evidence by its nature (the thing is gone).

Most property theft isn't reported, and won't be in your statistics.

Hard disagree. I am not and would not use an AirTag for stalking, and yet I am being punished for others doing it. It’s not fair to me.

I'm sorry, but that's silly. The argument is the other way around: would you like to be stalked by an airtag?

You can be stalked by 100 different devices on the market though. Not like this is the only possible way to track someone.

This is like nerfing knifes because they can kill people.

It's wild to see someone this forthcoming with their selfishness. You literally said "It’s not fair to me", as if a just world would prioritize your inconvenience over the safety of others.

I personally wouldn't use a rocket launcher for anything nefarious. It's super unfair.

Do you really think rocket launchers and airtags have the same risk?

Have you even considered the possibility that you or someone you love could one day be the victim of stalking?

I don't think you understand what the word "fair" means.

Wrong bothsidesism. The right choice was making a functional product. This is not that.

> Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

So you can either keep a tag on your stuff that lets anyone know where you are at all times, or just not misplace your keys. It really doesn't seem that hard to not use something this privacy intrusive if that's your threat model.

That's not the complaint at all - the complaint is that, because of the anti-stalking measures added at the original launch, the AirTags can't be used to track stolen items because the thieves will be notified that they are being "stalked".

> Initially they didn’t have it

They did have anti-stalking from the start btw. People still complained that it wasn’t good enough so they reduced some of the timings.

Maybe it's different people.

fortunately stalkers can now use Flock, so they don't need to buy airtags.

How useful is a GPS position for theft prevention? IME cops are not interested in doing more than filing a report after a theft, even if you have a live GPS location of the item for them. Do you try and go get it yourself?

i can speak to this as i had my motorcycle stolen on NYE last year in Santa Monica with an airtag in it. the Santa Monica police said “smart, but it’s in LA so we can’t help you get it. tell the LAPD.”. it took me seven hours of calls to the LAPD while personally hunting down my bike in the shadiest areas of LA, and being a block away from getting it myself, did they come. so yes, if you’re in LA, you basically get it yourself.

in my case, the damage was so much i wish i had just left it stolen and taken the bigger insurance payout.

In Austin, they won't lift a finger because they're underfunded and don't have the resources to address nonviolent crime.

GPS won't prevent theft, but can help in recovery. Can.

But Apple does more stuff as well, like encrypting your phone and making it so even harvesting a stolen phone for parts is unattractive (everything has serial numbers and you can't just swap a part out).

I disable the speaker in the ones I attach to luggage. (For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vAQNedIa0o )

How would airtags work as theft prevention? Airtags only enter the equation once something has already been stolen.

I think "theft recovery" is probably meant.

Setting expectations and thinning the herd. If even half of items had a well hidden air tag, and the cops successfully followed up even half of tagged thefts:

There would a. be less dumb criminals around to repeat offend and b. The smarter would-be criminals will do the calculus and and not steal items which could have tags.

Something like this product could potentially be a small theft deterrant.

You can tell there's an AirTag, and there's no easy way to remove it.

https://www.elevationlab.com/collections/airtag/products/tag...

> Unfortunately the anti-stalking features have made Airtag mostly useless for theft prevention.

While this is true, Airtags are not designed for theft prevention, and never have been. They're designed to locate lost items.

Apple should be applauded for making the only tracking tags with literally any kind of anti-stalking features at all.

I'm not fully onboard with the logic that we just have to live with a certain type of criminal behavior because the technology that could prevent it can be misused to enable another type of criminal behavior. We should aim to stop any kind of criminal behavior.

> I'm not fully onboard with the logic that we just have to live with a certain type of criminal behavior because the technology that could prevent it can be misused to enable another type of criminal behavior. We should aim to stop any kind of criminal behavior.

I don’t think anyone is making a claim that we should live with this according to first principles. I think people are saying this trade-off currently exists because it doesn’t seem to be economically or technologically feasible to solve both well.

How do you propose making an improvement to tracking technology that reduces theft while at the same time not assisting stalking?

One idea: if you report your AirTag as stolen, then it can continue to track the item, but you lose the ability to see where it is. In so doing you hand off tracking capability to some authority. This could be an improvement to the extent that the authority is trustworthy and well behaved. Unfortunately, such properties are not guaranteed across the globe. This would create more incentives for bribery for example.

Even in most first world countries the police won't help for the theft of an item of small value like a bag or even a bike.

We should, but also we should prioritise more harmful behaviour being prevented over less harmful behaviour, and stalking/harassment is in my opinion more harmful than property theft.

Not on Earth, no.

It would be if stalking happened at the same frequency as property theft, but the rates are ridiculously lopsided.

So much property theft happens that we don't bother reporting almost any of it.

Frequency isn't really an issue here. I don't care that much if someone steals my luggage. I'd be a little mad if someone took my bike, but I have redundant protection for it, along with other things of more importance, or I keep them on me.

But I'd really, really not like to find out someone was following me around.

If society didn't have to spend the amount of resources that it does dealing with the consequences of personal theft then it would have more resources to direct towards issues like stalking.

I bet Apple could produce some really interesting data from these tools and others that could be used to proactively target stalkers and investigate them before their actions escalate to violence.

Hell yeah, thoughtcrime!

Let's get Tom Cruise in here and whoop some ass!

Now try traveling with $30k of equipment in your luggage, like millions do every year.

You're well beyond the scope of an Airtag at that point. Either you've insured the gear, or you ship it in some more secure fashion, or you have a satellite tracker in it, or whatever other mitigation you can do here. Airtags are great things you might misplace more than anything.

> It would be if stalking happened at the same frequency as property theft, but the rates are ridiculously lopsided.

But the impact of the two activities is also lopsided:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_matrix

Stalking can potentially result in rape and death, even if there's a low probability of stalking happening in general.

To me, the bigger problem is the lack of ability for Android phones to register an AirTag as recognized. They've never done anything to address the problem of "drive your wife's car and her AirTag is beeping at you and your Android phone is beeping at you and there's no way to tell either one to stop".

As the owner of many airtags and some Airpods who has switched to Android, this is infuriating. I get beeps and unknown tracker notifications multiple times a day.

There are technical limitations in Apples design that prevents Android or anyone else from fixing it.

I left iOS because of degrading UX, and the UX of these products has got even worse as a result.

Vendor/ecosystem lockin, all on purpose, to give as much friction and annoyment as possible without flatly refusing the service which is generally bad for PR and apple does care about keeping their image up. This is their typical behavior for a long time, their primary mission is to force you into their ecosystem, not selling specific hardware (with 30% margin but still at the end they don't care about that).

Try running airpods pro against any android phone. Severely degraded experience on purpose to the point of rendering them worse than chinese 10$ aliexpress buds and practically useless. Wife had them, worked fine with iphone mini 13 but she hated iOS with passion so eventually reverted back to samsungs. She had to give airpods pro to her sister who still has apple phone and bought some cheapish buds for 50 bucks which work flawlessly and she is happy again.

Maybe engineers at apple are consistently incompetent to implement basic bluetooth unlike any chinese sweatshop, but somehow I refuse to believe so.

I agree with the lock-in, but FWIW I love using my AirPods with my Android phone. They basically work great. I can't change settings on them, but I haven't done that since I set them up. They sound nothing like $10 aliexpress ear buds, they remember and auto-pair to my phone, two laptops, and an iPad. Totally usable.

Not the best solution but you could turn off "Unknown tracker alerts" on your phone temporarily when you're driving your wife's car etc.

It is morally wrong to stalk the thieves.

Can it alert of my item being moved? Because it seems quite useless for the bicycle example in their screenshot.

My Samsung SmartTag gives me a notification if the bike changes position and I'm not nearby. Actually giving me a chance to track it down.

Not that I’ve found. Seems pretty reasonable trade off to me if it notified both parties rather than just the person with the tag

I developed a device that turns an Airtag on and off at specific intervals (roughly 80% off 20% on). While the AirTag is off, it can’t be detected, and when it turns on again, you can locate it and with it your stolen item: https://undetectag.com I'm about to order the new version to check whether it works on it too

Given how tracking stolen items is technically identical to tracking a person, wouldn't this also be a device for undetectable stalking?

You already know the answer to your question

You may want to update the marketing copy until you've tested it: "The device is guaranteed to work with the current version of the AirTag."

Combining Pareto and Murphy might result in 4 hours head start for the thief though.

This is brilliant just like Elevation Lab's 10 year battery for the AirTag. Do you think they'll work together?

In addition to this, AirTag also makes a sound when on the move.

This is also quite ridiculous, as it literally gives away that there is an AirTag there. I have seen people removing the speaker to eliminate this flaw.

That's not a flaw, that's an anti-stalking feature

Probably one of the best products apple has made of late: relatively affordable, good ux, user replaceable batteries. Glad to see this iteration hasn't made it worse.

Apple of late is a mystery. Their software and hardware product quality is wildly inconsistent and, yet, with the most simplest of hardware like AirTags and AirPods, they're like magic. iPhones, I could hardly care less about. These new airtags? Insta buy!

I'm not convinced AirPods are that "simple" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB_8dGKh9JI

Or their chargers! https://www.chargerlab.com/apple-18w-usb-c-power-adapter-a16...

Airpods are a great example of good UX making things seem simple. There's a ridiculous amount of engineering that goes into making them work as well as they do.

yes, apple has a LOT of hidden complexity. Another example is their dongles - many of them have significant processing power, like video conversion chips inside the shell.

Apple’s headphones adapter contains very high quality output and driver hardware. Their basic software usability quality problems simply shortchange everyone involved.

The quality would be better if those weren't needed, though.

I've started to dislike the narrative that "Apple never leads the pack, but it waits to release the best product."

But that hasn't been true for a decade. Most improvements have been marginal, and they totally missed the boat on LLMs.

To be fair, I think everyone but Google has been missing the boat on LLMs as platform integrations.

I call out Google as an exception because Gemini when it works correctly from an integration point of view can actually do some cool stuff like predictive suggestions in messaging based on context, though I wish it was all on device stuff, as on a privacy level I don’t trust Google

That said, it’s not like they’re so far and above anyone else they blow the competition out of the water either, they simply managed to make the functionality sometimes useful

Why should Apple care about LLMs? They missed the boat on cloud, cryptocurrencies and on search engines. So what? It's not their business - they can just license a good offering and move on to what they do best : Products.

LLMs are way outside their lane. With that said they've been focused on the underlying components to enable LLMs since way before ChatGPT was on the scene: Unified Memory, Neural Accelerator, even Spotlight counts (as a data source), etc...

There was no world where they were going to be the breakthrough leader in LLM development. That's a problem they can catch up on when they need to or license the technology.

I can see it in AirTags, but, haven't used AirPods myself, what is so "magical" about them?

Also, my understanding is that AirTags are only usable if you have an iPhone, am I wrong?

I've used them with my iPad. I don't have a Mac, but I would guess they work with any Find My-capable machine.

That just work. I know it sounds simple but if you have been burned by Bluetooth devices before again and again get unburned by AirPods. Also, they stick in my ear even though all other headsets with cable fell out. I don´t know how

Maybe I got lucky, but I never had issues with my Bose, Shokz, or even with my Soundcore headphones and bluetooth. I don't use in ear, so I can not comment on that.

From what I've read, it's an accumulation of small details.

I have a pair of Soundcore buds, and they work well. Unless only one of the two decides to not connect to the phone. Or they randomly decide to change the noise cancellation setting. Or their gesture detection randomly triggers. To be fair, it's pretty rare and easy to fix: put them back in the case and back out, etc. But it's small things that remind me "yeah, I did not shell out for AirPods". (also, their transparency mode for conversations is nigh useless, but it may be because those are a 4 year old model).

I regularily use a pair of Sony headphones too, and they are a bit less troublesome, because it's a much simpler product: a single BT connection, physical buttons for some quick controls, etc. But they still have their warts: can't charge and be used at the same time, handoff between two source devices still don't work after years, etc.

It's an accumulation of details that are not big, happen rarely, and don't need much to get used to. But they still need to get used to.

Yep but with AirPods, you are listening music or watching a video, on your Mac, your iPhone rings (on your AirPods), you accept the call, and now the video is paused on your Mac and your AirPods are already connected to your iPhone.

Any time any of the registered devices needs to emit sound, the AirPods instantly switch to this device (and both devices will show an unobtrusive notification to reverse the auto switch).

And it works every. single. time.

Apple can't make Airdrop work reliably after decades but somehow, they are able to magically and instantly transfer bluetooth audio from a device to another device.

Though, if you use your airpods with anything non apple, it will juste work like a classical bluetooth device, with manual pairing and no magic switching.

That is a great point. Airdrop on my iphone currently has this weird bug where if I try and airdrop directly to a target (eg my laptop) it doesn't work, but if I go into airdrop and select the exact same target, works fine. This is even weirder because it's followed me between phones (I restored from icloud backup). Yet, yeah, my airpods are fine at switching.

I've had Bose 700s, Sennheisers, Anker Soundcore, and probably other bluetooth earbuds and none of them come close to the simplicity of the Airpods. The Bluetooth handoff and pairing is insanely easy and works within a second or two. I've never once had to go to Bluetooth settings to force it to pair.

They're just expensive. If you spend the same amount on Sony earbuds or another good brand, they also work fine.

I've never had any 'not work'. Sorry. My Huawei Freeclip 2 are fantastic and a very different form factor Apple doesn't offer sadly. Great for urban walks and listening to podcasts while still being able to hear your surroundings.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bensin/2025/12/11/huaweis-freec...

This is the opposite of my experience. AirPods refusing to connect, randomly disconnecting, pressing "pause" on my phone only to have "play" instead invoke Apple Music on my Mac, and so forth. There are tons of "smart" features built into these that make the experience worse than I've had on normal, bluetooth headphones.

When it works, they at least connect with little friction. That's nice. The real value is in the very good noise-cancellation and battery life.

AirPods are great! You can use them with an Android, and it will let you know there's AirPods travelling with you every time!

That is correct. With the iPhone at home, you keep getting "Unknown tracker found travelling with you" spam on your Android, and the AirTag rings occasionally.

I would not call that usable.

Apple is a big company. I’d be more surprised if they were completely consistent.

How are Airtags or Airpods simple?

Cramming lots of tech into a small footprint is an extremely complex affair.

Simple user experience.

>Their software and hardware product quality is wildly inconsistent

Their hardware has been exceptional in recent years.

> relatively affordable

You can buy 4 third-party trackers for the price of 1 official one.

They do lack UWB, though there are other great form factors such as cards, and cool features such as wireless charging or usb-c charging, which imo is nicer than swapping batteries every few months.

Do they plug into the Find My network that iOS devices use?

Yep, Tile I believe is the only third party service that exists. All other trackers either plug into "Apple Find My" or "Android Find My Device" network. There's finally starting to be a few devices that can do both, but they're rare, so make sure you get the right one when buying. But they take 10s to setup and it's very smooth.

Samsung trackers also use their own network.

Tiles are about the same price as AirTags (at least they were last time I bought some)

Any names or recs on the ones that can do both? Can they do both simultaneously?

I haven't used it, but the verge recommended the pebblebee clip5: https://pebblebee.com/products/clip-5

(or the card 5 for wallets)

Yes

I have a third-party tracker and the AirTag in my bicycle. The third-party tracker has no clue what it’s doing or meant to do. But then again, the AirTag is completely inaudible in a decently-sized bicycle parking garage.

The reliability of the other brands are quite poor though. I've tried Tile, I've tried Pebble (using Google's network) and neither has worked reliability enough. So I ended up switching to AirTags and so far I have been impressed with the reliability - it works 100% of the time which is not something I could say about Tile nor Pebble/Google.

i thought so too, but in practice i've been getting much better battery life from the official airtag on my keychain, than i do from the "atuvos" trackers that see much less use. high-precision UWB finding and half as many coin cells used makes the airtag an easy choice over the cheaper trackers for me.

the card-shaped one i've got in my wallet isn't going to be replaced by an official airtag any time soon though, that form factor is too nice.

There is a lot of variance amongst third party/clone tags. I had some grey plastic losanges for a while they were junk and all ended up in the trash. Now I have a bunch of Hoco tags and they’re decent (especially for the price)

Would love to know what card tag you’d recommend, I’m after one.

i've got the"ATUVOS Air Tracker Tag Card Wallet Tracker", purchased november 2023 and it's still going strong.

but i think there's some available now in the card form factor that have rechargeable batteries, and that's what i'll buy when i have to replace this one.

Stupid form factor, though. Need to buy extra accessories to be able to actually mount it to anything, but I guess that's the Apple way. Why not have a hole to put a rope or anything through?

It'd be even better if it worked with Android too and used Android devices as part of the network.

It sounds like the external dimensions are going to be exactly the same or nearly so. I'm hoping the battery compartment is also identical so that third-party mounting and extended battery packs continue to work.

I recently picked up a few of these extended battery packs and it would be nice to eventually upgrade the AirTag if the extended range turns out to be meaningful. They're pretty neat, you remove the battery cover completely and only insert the half of the AirTag with the electronics and radio.

https://www.elevationlab.com/products/timecapsule

Didn’t know that external battery packs were a thing. That could be super useful.

Yeah, I picked them up along with some AA lithium (non-rechargeable) batteries. I also didn't know those batteries existed until recently. I knew there were rechargeable lithium AAs with a charge plug and charging circuitry built into each little cylinder, but I've heard mostly bad reviews of those.

These non-rechargeable ones have pretty good reviews though, and apparently last much longer than normal AAs (both in terms of capacity and storage). I'll probably start putting them in the handful of things I've got that still take AAs.

Their description does say “Works with AirTag generation 1 & 2.” Thanks for putting me on to these. Really clever products. I always feel stupid with my airtag dangling off of my camera.

Great! I scanned the page when I posted that comment, so I either missed it or they were just about to update it.

Are there any wallet-shaped Airtags yet? That's the one thing keeping me from ditching my Tiles.

There are none from Apple but in the past I have used Chipolos. They have some which are the size of about 3 stacked credit cards and fit in my wallet easily. The (at that time) did not feature UWB tracking but had a decent loudspeaker. Unfortunately they are single-use only and once the battery ran out (happened to me after about a year) you had to throw it away...

Nomad makes Find My compatible cards.

https://nomadgoods.com/in/products/tracking-card

Can vouch for the nomad. Battery is about 6 months and can be wirelessly recharged in a day. Speaker is a bit quiet but functional. Updates reliably and frequently.

Yep - I've got the UGREEN FineTrack Slim G Wallet Tracker Card in my wallet and it's perfect.

Love the fact that it's rechargeable - although a little bit annoying that it's with a USB to proprietary connector.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UGREEN-Ultra-Slim-Rechargeable-Comp...

A bit pricey but works well. https://ridge.com/products/tracker-card

Elevantionlab is weird as they don't really sell outside of the US. Canada and UK, that's it.

Don't they want people's money or what's the business case here?

They DID ship here a long time ago, I owned their aluminium docks and a few other things.

my parents live in Russia and my grandma has alzheimer's, so as a present "for her" I bought an airtag - so in case my mom loses grandma in a crowd she can be found.

Little did I know, GPS jammers around the city make my grandma appear 50km away.

Not Apple's fault of course.

Wait what

Russia does pretty widespread GPS jamming and spoofing both in their country as well as across the Baltics and Nordics (and others). If a phone is receiving bad GPS data when it reports sensing the tag, the tag location will reflect that bad GPS data and not reality.

Thanks for explanation. I had absolutely no awareness GPS jamming was a thing, let alone at scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha

my runner friends hate it, suddenly your Garmin can't show your pace and distance properly. (I am very much aware it's a 1st world problem to have in times of war)

The United States (who created and operates GPS) also has the ability to make civilian GPS receivers in a specific area or region area less accurate, in case of war. I would assume that other countries' systems (Russia, China, maybe not EU) also have this ability.

GPS was primarily developed as a military technology. It was intentionally inaccurate for all civilians up until the year 2000.

Most of the time people say “GPS” they really mean any of the several GNSS systems, which also include: GLONASS, GALILEO, QZSS, and BeiDou

While they’re all susceptible to jamming, one system getting shutdown by its operator means most modern devices can shift to the others for most applications. Not unusual for consumer devices to support multiple (but dunno how they handle disagreements)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation_device

https://www.xda-developers.com/apple-iphone-14-gps-support/#...

https://gpsjam.org/

see e.g. Who cares about the Baltic jammer ? https://media.ccc.de/v/39c3-who-cares-about-the-baltic-jamme...

Shouldn't most comodity GPS receivers also be GLONASS compatible (I get that Galileo is more niche and might not be included).

Does the Sensor Apple uses not use GLONASS in Russia? Or is it cheapo Android Phones picking up the tag and then sending GPS coords into cloud?

edit: Nvm, I might be dumb, I guess unless your jamming includes all commodity GNSS it's pretty useless.

They have had GLONASS for ages too, but obviously they have to jam everything, otherwise it's not going to prevent drones and such from working

> Or is it cheapo Android Phones picking up the tag and then sending GPS coords into cloud?

AirTags have no integration with Android devices. There's a shitty app from Apple you can install that allows you to scan for AirTags nearby, one shot. It's supposedly against stalkers, but it's practically useless. There a bunch of other community apps with varying features like finding and notifying you there's an AirTag nearby. But you can't even track your own AirTags from an Android device, because Apple have decided you must do it from an iDevice. No browser, no Android app. You can check your iPhone's location via the browser, but not the AirTag.

The Android ecosystem has an alternative thing, but depending on the phone manufacturer you have to opt in to your device being used to track trackers around you.

When I travel to places with low iPhone market share, I always have one tracker of each ecosystem, just in case.

Oh, thank for the correction. I must've muddled it up in my mind with the contact tracing integration that had during Covid.

AirTag itself doesn't have GPS, of course. It depends on the devices that communicate with the AirTag having precise location. IF you have a phone in Russia, are your maps apps off by 50km these days?

I would assume the inaccuracy is due to the various phones that pick up the airtag pings GPS being jammed, reporting AirTags nowhere near where they actually are.

Makes sense. Would be pretty cool if Apple could find a way to correct GPS jamming using accelerometers and some logic. If your GPS location jump 50 kilometers in 2 minutes, ignore GPS and use cell tower + accelerometer. Maybe create some sort of mesh network, using other phones and nearby SSIDs to get a makeshift location positioning.

That does come with the risk of Tim Cook falling out of a window.

Most current phones already use these techniques (and more) just simply to account for poor signals, which have long been an issue with GPS because signal strength and SNR are inherently very low.

The AirTag does not have a GPS receiver. When anyone's iPhone discovers the tag, it sends their device's location to Apple servers with "by the way, this AirTag is in range." If cellular location is inaccurate then good luck.

iPhone SE for next gift? it can snap back to correct location when the jammers are off or the phone infers location from tower etc

What airtags need is a theft mode, where anyone carrying the airtag is not alerted, but the location can be retrieved by an approved local authority after being voluntarily surrendered by the owner.

The challenge is how you prevent such features being abused by like stalkers

It would be nice if this could tie in to actively altering enforcement when it's turned on, maybe even require sharing with authorities for it to be enabled: the stalker would have to collaborate with police in order to stalk the victim.

Whitelisting law enforcement so when the owner of the air tag declares it stolen nobody other than a whitelisted law enforcement org could view its location and when they did that creates an audit log?

This implies a level of trust in law enforcement. As a US citizen, hard pass.

They have access to guns, stingrays and flock cameras. They tap every email, message and phone call you make. You wouldn't even know if you are subject to warrantless surveillance as it might be illegal to tell you under the patriot act.

I'm pretty sure being able to access an Airtag that was put into stolen mode by the owner is the least of your concern. I'm not even sure what failure mode you are worried about because you didn't elaborate.

Please don't think I'm trying to be all high and mighty because I live in the UK and am surveilled even worse than you are (although at least our police are very rarely armed).

I concur, but you don't have to use that feature if you don't trust LE.

^ exactly.

And since the user has the original key, it'd have to be voluntary surrender. After you turn your key in, you lose access.

The best part is the whole thing could be reviewable and added to a public immutable ledger, encrypted, to make the whole process, transition, and access transparent for courts later. Wouldn't it be great if more investigations happened that way?

And if you don't trust law enforcement, thats your prerogative, no need to use the feature.

What happens when law enforcement members are the stalkers?

Wouldn't even be hard for Apple to implement, they already do this for airlines.

This also requires authorities that would care about this sort of case.

I wish they made airtags in different form factors.

I've gotten into photography lately. I'd love to slip an airtag into more places - ideally within the housing of my camera bodies themselves. But, there's not really any room to put an airtag on or in a camera given the current airtag form factor.

You can get camera cages with secret compartments for airtags. And lens caps which take an airtag. But they take up a lot of space, and end up adding a lot of bulk to the camera itself. I wish Apple opened airtags up to 3rd party manufacturers who could buy the (tiny) circuit board directly, so they could hide it in their products better.

The better solution is the route that Insta360 took with the Go Ultra. The camera has embedded "Find My" technology. No Airtag or hiding things required, the entire camera is the tag.

All we need to do is get more camera companies to follow suit.

Not sure if you've found this: https://www.elevationlab.com/collections/airtag/products/tag...

It still takes some space but quite clever

There are 3rd party airtags...

So they made it impossible to remove speaker, destroying its usability as a theft tracking device. One could add an airtag with a removed speaker on a bike/scooter/car and then localize it in case of theft. With the new airtag any thief will be quickly notified they are tracked.

There's an inherent conflict between use as a theft tracking device, and use as a stalking device. Both situations are pretty indistinguishable. Apple is prioritizing reducing the AirTag's utility to stalkers.

Again prioritizing low cardinality event (stalking) instead of high cardinality event (theft) because of "security", making the device mostly pointless, good only to quickly locate some thing at home (assuming battery still holds after the thing being forgotten for years in a closet).

It's useful to help locate things both at home and when traveling. But, yes, optimizing for potential theft recovery conflicts with disabling stalking and, however uncommon, the latter got a lot of publicity, so it's something Apple etc. wanted to focus on (especially given that, in most places, theft prevention probably wasn't very effective anyway).

I think you'll find it's not so much about how likely the event is (stalking vs theft) as it is about the potential impact of the event.

The things you want to "protect" with an invisible AirTag are, at their core "just stuff".

The things being protected by not selling an invisible AirTag are, at their core "people".

I think if my car is stolen, it's probably a bigger deal for me personally than stalking.

I'm not a female, so I don't anticipate a civilian stalking me for really any reason. A non-civilian wouldn't use an airtag.

Zero stalkers are stopped because of airtag policies, since many other devices exist.

There are infinitely better ways to protect your car from being stolen than putting a fucking AirTag in it, and as a bonus you can buy all of them without sounding self-centred and flippant about real threats to other people.

It's not to prevent my car being stolen. It's to find it after it's stolen.

People have been stalking each other since long before airtags.

Well it's a good thing for you, someone just yesterday told me:

> many other devices exist

So use one of them?

I do. I don't own an airtag.

So your complaint is, "This product that I don't own, and isn't designed to do what I want, doesn't do the thing it isn't designed to do.".

Do you also post complaints that GE Washing machines don't have a built-in method to cook a fucking chicken?

I didn't make a complaint.

Increasing the friction and difficulty to stalk someone definitely results in less actual stalking. I'm sure some would-be stalker can figure out AirTags but can't figure out or afford the alternatives.

Also, wouldn't this argument apply to the use of AirTags as anti-theft devices? Since AirTag alternatives exist, just use the alternatives devices for anti-theft that also work for stalking. But some people don't do this and just want to use AirTags for anti-theft purposes. Which sort of illustrates my point. Fewer people do a thing when it's harder. No would care that AirTags aren't good for anti-theft if there were alternatives equally as good.

> Increasing the friction and difficulty to stalk someone definitely results in less actual stalking.

No it doesn't.

If increasing friction to do something results in zero change in how many people do the thing, then why does anyone care that AirTags don't work for anti-theft purposes? Wouldn't there be no complaints if there were alternatives that were just as easy/cheap/functional?

A train is barreling down the tracks while you stand at a switch. Do nothing and the train will destroy dozens of bicycles. If you pull the switch the train will kill one woman you've never met.

You sure you still wanna pull that switch?

The false dichotomy you present does not become any more credible in the form of a thought experiment.

This is literally the situation the comment I'm responding to set up

How many people's lives in third world countries were ruined making that train?

And I know, I know, the downvoterinos!

I don't actually care about this issue at all. The observation is: that moral grandstanding of "woman's lives to stolen bicycles" is somewhat amusing when the hardware is built on the backs of underpaid people in the global south. All so people can have little toys of convenience.

It's likely that Apple doesn't care about woman's lives either, for what it's worth. Just the negative PR associated with the problem at hand.

"Again prioritizing low cardinality event (stalking) instead of high cardinality event (theft)"

I don't think you can speak to the relative likelihood of these with any confidence. There are lots of people for whom stalking is a much bigger problem than theft.

Stalking has likelihood of being life threatening, property can’t be life threatening.

They are prioritizing safety both personal and litigious. Apple markets it as a way to find lost things, not stolen things. There are trackers you can buy for tracking stolen things. I'm only familiar with ones designed for cars but I'm sure there are others as well.

That's a personal preference. I have like 12 AirTags and find them quite useful. The precise indoor tracking functionality is great. Losing/misplacing something happens a lot more to me than theft. Though I do have an airtag I've removed the speaker from, so could be useful in a theft situation.

There are ways to use AirTags that are true stalking methods and these aren't currently mitigated by Apple. If anything this is a false sense of security. Nerfing their product seems more like corporate CYA than concern for public safety.

> Apple is prioritizing reducing the AirTag's utility to stalkers.

No, Apple is prioritizing good publicity. A motivated stalker will just be using another product, which is a net financial negative for Apple. They just don’t want the possibility of the news talking about how someone got assaulted thanks to an Apple device.

That seems a little extreme. Another device won't have the advantage of Apple's "Find My Network". Competitors like Tile have a much smaller network. Or devices that rely on cellular are much larger and don't have a battery that lasts for years. Or even if there is an AirTag alternative that's just as functional, it's less well known and would-be stalkers will have a harder time finding it and using it. So by not supporting the stalking use case Apple is genuinely making it a little harder for stalkers.

But also, I agree that this is about reputational liability more than some higher desire to do good. But IMHO it's also doing some actual good.

Apple decided its better to not enable stalkers and get bad press for that. From tne point of view of the tracker anti theft and stalking are kinda the same. This mirrors yesterdays one about efuses btw

> Find My makes it easy to locate AirTag, Apple devices, and compatible third-party devices

The other side of this is that it can't be used to slip into someone's purse as they leave the bar and then be tracked unknowingly.

Apple leaves the door open for manufacturers to implement an anti-theft device into their goods that address both concerns.

Assuming the victim owns a modern phone and still possesses it, sure.

Seems just as easy to boost the phone while you're dropping the tag.

Apple has removed all mention of theft tracking from their site once they added the stalking protection. Airtag is for people who lose things, not finding stolen things. You have less than an hour before an Airtag alerts a thief they are being tracked.

That is also true for thieves looking to steal your vehicle by finding where you live, so it is an unfortunate intersection of crime and crime prevention.

There are much better options for vehicle tracking and theft prevention so I would personally prefer it to be harder for thieves or stalkers to track using these very easy to get devices.

We don't need to risk having people stalked/tracked just so you can play pretend sheriff.

We aren't risking it; you can already stalk people with other devices and methods. This doesn't increase the "stalkability."

We have an airtag in our cargo bike, connected to our ipad (neither my wife nor I have an Iphone). It never actually makes a sound and we can reliably track on the ipad. what gives? I never thought about this.

Au contraire, my airtag in my car sometimes makes sounds even when it's just me driving in the car.

Great to hear but it's still the same shape. I really want a 'credit card' shaped version I can slide into my wallet.

You can buy a third party wallet card that works with the Find My network just like an AirTag.

I could be wrong but third party tags bet a subset of the tracking capabilities? Ie less accurate/less likely to be found.

I'm always tempted to buy one of these but most of them seem to be one time usage, and don't have a way to recharge. That always seems very wasteful to me.

Any recommendations for a rechargable but thin one, AirTag itself is too thick for regular wallets.

The Eufy SmartTrack card is great! Mine is non-rechargeable and going on year 3. They have released a rechargeable version called the “E30”.

https://www.eufy.com/uk/products/t87b1011?variant=4875830860...

I've been using one of these with Find My for over a year. I've not done anything with the Eufy app, just the Find My app itself. It lacks the precision find, but you can play a sound through the Find My app / get directions / share the item / flag the item as lost / do left behind and it works well.

The other direction is just get a wallet that supports a real airtag. Because my wallet is so important to me, the name brand airtag, with UWB-enhanced findability, is worth swapping out my wallet rather than getting a sub-par credit-card find my compatible device. nb, I came to this conclusion after getting an aftermarket credit card device and found it lacking.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BZ8C5N7H

I have almost an identical wallet; I really considered using the card form factor but I would miss the precision find too much.

I have one you can recharge wirelessly. Forget the brand but it’s been working well

The ugreen one is rechargable - https://www.ugreen.com/en-ca/products/ca-45298

I like that it's the same shape. My backbag has an AirTag pocket, so I can just swap out a first-gen AirTag for a second-gen if I need to.

I think there are also several third-party wallet trackers that integrate with the Find My network.

I bought a third party one to do just that, and it's worked fine for me: https://chipolo.net/en-us/products/chipolo-card-spot

I think there are other options too

Do the third party ones have UWB/"Precision Finding"?

Nope, but you can play sound. For my wallet it's enough to know I didn't leave it somewhere, then sound is enough. Sorry should have mentioned it's not a perfect replacement.

Yeah. Although I'm normally pretty good, it's mostly what did I leave my wallet under in my house?

There's a newer version: https://chipolo.net/en-us/products/chipolo-card

Notably they now support both the Apple and Android ecosystems from a single hardware SKU, although only one at a time, and the formerly disposable battery can now be recharged with a standard Qi wireless charger.

I'm interested to hear this. I had very mixed experience a few years ago with the Seinxon finder card; it wasn't reliably in contact to make it beep, even when I was standing right beside it, but worse it would semi-regularly go into anti-stalker mode and start beeping and spamming iPhones around me with scary-looking notices. This second behaviour was obviously a deal-breaker so I discontinued use of them. (Looks like the company still exists but is now selling newer versions of the cards I bought from them)

Having recently switched to Android I was tempted to give Chipolo products a try, but this reddit thread disuaded me, as multiple users there are reporting the exact kinds of issues that I experienced previously: https://www.reddit.com/r/Chipolo/comments/1n4m4j3/chipolo_po...

I have white Android-only Chipolos, and they work reliably.

Does it tell a thief a chipolo is following them around like the apple tag?

airtag compatible, shows up in Find My: https://nomadgoods.com/products/tracking-card

Do these have the ultra wide band chip? you lose a lot of utility without it.

From the FAQ: Does Tracking Card Air support Precision Finding? You can track your items from anywhere in the world using the Apple Find My app, but sound alerts only work when you’re within about 150 feet. Since Apple doesn’t yet support Ultra Wideband (UWB) technology for third-party trackers, Tracking Card Air doesn’t include Precision Finding at this time.

I haven't stress tested it but I have a Spotfinder in my small wallet.

Atuvos one at 1.6mm and UGreen one at 1.7mm are great, though one time battery is annoying. There are some that have wireless charging, though thicker.

SpotMinder is supposedly wireless charging though haven't tried.

Have one in my wallet. Will probably get some more AirTags.

I have a wallet with a pocket for an airtag.

i guess the point of having a tag in the shape of a card is to prevent a thief from throwing the obvious airtag away, the card tag may look like an ordinary bank card and kept in the wallet longer

I have the ugreen card, and it works fine. https://www.ugreen.com/en-ca/products/ca-45298

Anyone stealing a wallet would immediately look through the contents and discard such card, no?

I mean it's there front-and-center and mentioned multiple times in all materials related to airtags. These are not anti-theft, or stalking devices as they alert the thief. They are tracking devices for misplacing items (e.g. a wallet).

I own 8 AirTags, and have them on all my sets of keys and in all my bags. I've managed to avoid loss about 5 times in the 3 years of using them. It also gives me piece of mind when landing on a plane that my luggage is where its meant to be.

If you want to stop your wallet being stolen, I'm afraid your options are very limited.

My need was finding my black wallet in the house when I forget where I put it. My wife has been very happy that she no longer has to field "Hey sweetie, have you seen my wallet?". I walk around asking it to sing to me, and I find it without bother.

As for theft - you might be overthinking it. It's a black piece of plastic that could easily be a door key. Gutter thieves will rifle the wallet and pull out cash, and credit cards, and drop the rest in the trash anyway. Any regular thief knows they don't want to be caught holding someone else's id.

> Designed exclusively for tracking objects, and not people or pets, the new AirTag incorporates…

Interesting to call out that it’s not designed for pets. I know several people with AirTags on their pet collars.

why not pets?

I think mostly it's a chew risk for dogs and won't help if the dog is far from the AirTag network. I still have one on my dog anyway (he's not a chewer) and my daughter puts one on her cat occasionally. (Both pets are microchipped too, of course.)

I bought one for my cat, never did help with finding him, just the general area.

They're not great for tracking things that move on their own, or things that avoid people.

We use them on our cats and have found the trouble-maker cat 3 times out of 3 when needed (in an urban apartment area; most recently the cat was scared by a noise which may have kept her hidden out all night in the cold, unless we had found her/shooed her back to the house)

we have them for our cats, they're great. Sometimes they're hiding in bushes and we don't realize they're 10 ft away. Other times they're down by the neighbor's house. It's not perfect but it tells us which direction more or less. And definitely more peace of mind if they ever got lost. They

They make breakaway collars so if they get caught on something it won't trap them.

Can't compete with a Tractive, though.

1. they way the network works, it works better for inanimate objects that don't move around

2. they contain small parts that pets might inadvertently eat, and some of the collars that exist for them have been known to snag on things and entrap pets.

They work best for things that a human has to move, and since a good chunk of humans (at least in US/CA) have iPhones, the movement of the physical thing will be tracked by an iPhone fairly reliably. Any time the critter is outside the range of an i-device picking it up the location will be stale. There isn't really a way around that, since GPS/5G radios are a lot more power hungry than the occasional bluetooth pings an airtag broadcasts.

Legal reason, perhaps?

Apple doesn't, maybe, want to explain why these are for tracking the living?

AirTags have always been "meh" about "finding" anything in motion. And by that I mean the up close "locate this device". I ASSUME it has to do with the fact that its trying to create a multiple point triangulation using only a single device (eg the phone you are on).

Even an airtag moving a little bit, will give you warnings in find my.

Not that you asked, but re: this conversation, I looked at AirTags for cat use and ultimately settled on the TabCat tracker instead. It's pricier, but built for the purpose- the device that goes on the collar is very lightweight and small, and the tracker will guide you via sound right to the cat without the need for relay from other devices like an AirTag. Months of battery life, too.

> Maintaining the same form factor as the original, the new AirTag is compatible with all existing AirTag accessories

I'm glad this appears to have been a focal point of the design.

Awesome.

Time for me to buy my first iPhone then.

Sincerely, f** Google. I've been android user since I had to abandon Symbian, and their impotence in this one thing is staggering.

Ironically, one of the reason Google's offerings are (were?) worse is because Google prioritized privacy and required pings from multiple phones to count a tracker as seen.

I don't know.... Phones are not identified to the tracker owner and trackers are not identified to phone owner.

But basically this means that only items in the high traffic areas can be found.

I bought my first a years ago after some awful customer service experiences with Google re: Pixel phones. While iOS is not without its faults, most of the "just works" marketing has thus far turned out to be true in my experience. Their software feature set isn't on the cutting edge for a lot of things (my iPhone 13 couldn't even display the weather on the lock screen when I first got it), but they do generally get there eventually.

I remain incompatible with iOS and there's near zero chance of me using it on my handset (I had one for 2 years as company phone), but I applaud the utility of "find my".

Ironically, in the light of your post, I migrated my main phone to Pixel (with GrapheneOS due to the additional functionality), but admittedly I dread my potential clash with Google service -- you can't even chargeback them if you're not ready to losing access to EVERYTHING related to Google.

I'd like another way but no other Android vendor offers secure hardware :(

Yep, it's basically a duopoly at the moment (I don't consider Samsung a real option for a variety of reasons).

I have about 4 or 5 Airtags and haven't actually had any practical use for them, but just having them on my keys and expensive camera backpack is a nice peace of mind. My sister however, was able to track down her suitcase which the airline supposedly "forgot" to load and got compensation for it.

> and a louder speaker

That's great, but could they do something about what plays on the speaker? It's all pretty in that Apple sort of way, but the fact that its volume goes up and down makes it harder to find. Y'know, exactly the one thing you're trying to do with it?

For anyone outside the U.S where most likely people around you will have Android devices and not iPhones, you are better off ordering trackers that are compatible with Google Find My Device

They're cheaper and allows third parties, plus the network is stronger.

  They're cheaper and allows third parties, plus the network is stronger.

There are cheap ($5) devices for Apple's network, if you don't need the UWB support (required for precise location, e.g. when you're within metres of the device but don't know which direction you should go).

I wonder which network is stronger in the UK. There are many recent-ish Android phones with presumably the latest version of Google Play Services. But I don't know if anyone has tried to test, or even to estimate the number of devices.

I'm curious whether the improved range is actually going to make the product worse for my particular use case, which is being alerted when I've left my bag somewhere (this has happened to me at least 5 times over the years). My understanding is that the item left behind notifications are triggered when your phone loses contact with the AirTag, so increased range can potentially take me from being notified as I step off the train to being notified as I leave the station and the train has departed.

It triggers within a certain radius that you can change in the settings to be wider or narrower. It's not specifically when it loses contact with the device.

Metromile insurance — now Lemonade — had a fantastic feature going to way back in 2015 AFAIR, that allowed you to track your car to bill you per mile. As a bonus they gave you location tracking history. This feature helped me nail down my olden beater which the thief stole not knowing what was in the ODB.

The car was used to commit a crime and the location tracking history was used by the detective at the local PD to nail a professional ring with additional evidence targeting certain cars. The car was totaled but I got insurance money back.

Metromile's app now only shows you your car's live location — that too only after several years of the acquisition — but no location history, which is sad. I _think_ law enforcement can actually ask them with warrants and they would have to give that data if they have it. Don't say you delete the data because of privacy, because we all know its not true: let me store the data in my phone. (Google already does this with its location history tool in maps) Pretty please?

To Metromile: You are already using a location stack from apple/google's Location Provider with a permission modal in the app. Its like nothing in LoC with a local storage and an opt in/out setting.

I'm kind of the opposite use case: I own four AirTags, keep them in different bags and suitcases, and I've literally never needed them. I don't lose any luggage or bags, so most of the time they just sit there quietly burning those CR2032s. For me they've ended up feeling more like they are preventing me from anxiety than doing something that actually changes my life day to day...

I diligently put airtags in all of my luggage, but I forgot to put it in a box I checked in on my last flight. That’s the one checked luggage that didn’t show up at the baggage carousel, in my entire life.

I had it delivered to me the next day, but I must have used air tags for checked luggage a 50+ times before.

I don’t lose bags either, but airlines do. The AirTag let me tell United which building in Houston in ended up in (after getting lost at SFO), and refute their gaslighting multiple times that it was heading my way. Worth its weight in gold, literally.

Is this… skeuomorphism in an Apple UI? In 2026?

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/2026/01/apple-introduc...

No. Skeuomorphism would have you dragging the AirTag from a picture of your pocket to a picture of someone else’s pocket, and you’d lose the ability to track it yourself then, because it would belong to the other person now.

Skeuomorphism is more about making the UI work like the real world, not just look like it.

I have ADHD – which is hardly uncommon in this economy – and the improvements to finding AirPods Pro with Find My have been a godsend. I use it almost every day. I've lost so many airpods in the past. I hope we see the same improvements to air tags.

ps, Apple is driving me nuts with their branding. With is AirPods one word and Find My two words?

Same. If I had a dollar for everytime I've said "hey siri where are my keys/airpods/phone" they'd have paid for themselves several times over.

apple should have an anti-theft mode. Where you can't track it, but they can give access to local law enforcement to track it, and therefore wont go into stalker mode / alerting people about it.

If one is in close proximity to the device (say bluetooth), one can take it out of this mode and return it to normal usage.

I don’t know where you live, but where I live, I think we have a very good police force. But I would have absolutely no expectation of them getting actively involved in the tracker sleuthing of petty theft.

Depends on the country. Switzerland will. I suspect Japan will too

> But I would have absolutely no expectation of them getting actively involved in the tracker sleuthing of petty theft.

That's actually what I would love to see cops doing! Petty theft is among the most annoying nuisances there is, particularly for tourists. And I'd classify petty thefts in tourist areas, public transport and similar hotspots as aggravated cases as well.

Honestly, it doesn't take that much work. Have the mayor announce that police will now take stolen-property claims seriously and immediately follow up on reports, maybe run the occasional sting operation themselves... and the thieves will go away somewhere else all on their own.

Yes, you might run the risk of only catching some piss poor drug addicts instead of the brokers accepting and selling on the stolen merchandise - but when the brokers can't find anyone willing to risk a mandatory year in prison for petty theft, they will have to close up shop as well.

"With its updated internal design, the new AirTag is 50 percent louder than the previous generation, enabling users to hear their AirTag from up to 2x farther than before."

Curious about getting 2x the distance from 1.5x the "loudness", I would have thought the inverse? Maybe there is nuance to this though.

loudness is logarithmic

I tried AirTags once. It beeped non stop on my own possessions. I don’t understand how anyone uses these things.

That’s not the expected experience, and not the one other people have.

I once bought 4 air tags, never got to work them in any useful sense. I keep getting warnings about leaving my keys behind, which are in my pocket. I don't recall any time being warned about leaving things behind when I did. Can't really locate things a few meters away.

That’s so odd! They’ve worked exactly as promised for me. I never, ever get warnings about my own tags, or my wife’s tags that she’s shared with me. Not even once. And yesterday I used them to find my keys that the cats had relocated to across the house.

I don’t have any explanation for how our experiences could be so different, but they are. Mine even did the cool thing where you can watch your luggage move through an airport until you join up with it.

Just found out that the one active remaining tag on my keychain stopped working in September without me noticing.

It seems like Apple should notify users that their AirTag disappeared and ask them if they would like instructions on replacing the battery or to remove it from their account.

Mine pester me to change the batteries until I actually do.

Generally you tag your home as a trusted location, which eliminates most regular pings. Then you make sure that your Find My shows all of your tags; if you missed enrolling one and it still pings as a "stranger's tag" that can be a cause of confusion. (If you live with someone else, I've heard it is useful that you share your Find My data with each other.)

When actually traveling with your stuff there's a personal comfort question of how comfortable you feel in setting things like hotel rooms as "trusted" so you don't get a lot of pings when you leave things behind intentionally in places like hotel rooms. I think that's my biggest ask for AirTags is an easier way to set explicitly time-bound trusts: trust this exact hotel room until my checkout date; trust this exact office space until the end of this work day.

I had this experience too. They beep like this if they're not near an updated iDevice logged into your account.

You'll have the same problem if you do something like: set the AirTag up on an iPad, but then carry around with an Android phone on you or just any phone not logged into your Apple Account. The beeping is the anti-stalking feature since it thinks it's separated from its owner.

> And an upgraded Bluetooth chip expands the range at which items can be located.

It's interesting they don't give a stat on how much the range has increased by ... especially given they give stats for everything else.

Apple's Find My helps thieves more than it helps the owners:

When I was on a walk with my friend, my iPhone constantly nagged me about "AIRPODS ARE MOVING WITH YOU!!!1!" and it showed me the EXACT complete route on the map.. I didn't even ask for it!

When I lost my AirPods (which are ridiculously easy to remove from your iCloud account and Find My: just hold down the pairing button for 30 seconds), it just showed me a vague radius and "Last seen around here 12 hours ago" not even a exact time.

I get the optics about tracking people...

But man that's one of my best use cases, toss a tag in my kid's pocket when we are somewhere busy. I used one on my older in-law who tended to wander.

They work great for that.

"the new AirTag is 50 percent louder than the previous generation, enabling users to hear their AirTag from up to 2x farther than before"

Can that really be true?

If you’re 2x farther away, the intensity of the sound with be 1/4, because of the inverse square law, so logically your speaker would need to be 300% louder.

And, technically, if you are 2x farther away, you are 3x as far away, so the intensity would be 1/9.

AirTags don't help if the police are understaffed and totally unconcerned.

ProTip: Avoid Austin. Property theft everywhere and the cops don't care at all.

Great that they are improving a relatively low profile product. I imagine that the warning of using AirTag on pets is just for regulatory purposes?

Yep. They continue to be excellent pet trackers. “They’re not for use with pets, wink wink”, when if you set out to build a pet tracker from scratch, that’s what you’d hope to end up with.

Pet trackers in which situation though? The times I’ve wanted a tracker on my dog is when we’re out in the woods for a hike and I worry he bolts after an animal or similar. I can’t see how an AirTag would help in that scenario.

That's the part of the "hope" people have with the AirTag is that their pet will happen to wander close to another compatible Apple device to update the tracking. I assume this is also why they are not the "suggested" use

That’s a good point. You’re right: they’d be useless there, unless you were so close to your dog that you could hear it anyway. I live in a city and a lost dog would be close to any number of people with phones at any given time, and it’d be very useful there.

They're great if you're in a populated area. If you're tracking pets in the country, you'll never see them, as there aren't any relay devices out in the woods.

Finally! Can‘t wait to tinker with one and figure out how to disable the new tamper peotected speaker.

My son has Down Syndrome and is non-verbal. He's clever though and has found ways to wander off from his school and caregivers. As a parent this is terrifying. Eventually we tried AirTags on his shoes. It's an imperfect technology but it works.

Does anyone know if you can disable or lower the volume of its speaker for everyone who might ping it? I use one on my cat's collar and I'm already concerned about it being harmful to her hearing should I ever put it into lost more.

For whatever it's worth I have a personal counter-story to airtag usefulness. Not to get into the debate of indoor vs outdoor cats, we had a cat a few years ago that liked to roam around outside and one time it got spooked and disappeared for two weeks. It came back all skinny and hurt and after that we bought an air tag collar for peace of mind. The airtag worked just fine for a few months until the cat disappeared again. That very day the airtag stopped working so when we actually need it, the signal was permanently lost. We never found out why. I could imagine perhaps a car hit it or a coyote ate it, but there's certainly edge cases where an airtag would fail immediately. Battery life is highly unlikely to be the culprit in my opinion as it was fairly new, working recently before that day and the timing was too perfect.

Why everyone is so okay with wearing a tracking device? Usually there is a crowd who will bring NSA in every possible discussion, but apparently not for this worldwide functioning meter-precise tracking service?

It’s voluntary and isn’t embedded in something you need for other reason. It makes all the difference in the world.

So we have some closed-source systems(iPhones, AirTags, samsung analogs, etc) which enable owner(best case it is Apple "allowed" by you) to use established global "opt-out" tracking network?

I call it the 2N; novelty and naïveté. People like the different new things that let them do things they’ve never done before, and they also don’t want to think about the long term effects or consequences of their actions.

It comes into play in many human behaviors like objectively horrible choices in romantic partnerships, drug use and reckless behavior and actions in general, most forms of fraud where promises are made and/or imagination is spurred, as well as various forms of political decisions in democracies where people support or believe lying liars in order to win the “fell for it again” award.

There seems to be something inherently and deeply prone to clearly self-harming behavior in many if not all humans. Willingly simply adopting and excusing mass surveillance tracking devices where people would have resisted being injected with a tracker otherwise, is probably a good example of that. “No no” says one rat to his buddy “it’s just a box where all the sudden little lumps of peanut butter started appearing two nights ago. I’m sure it will just be free peanut butter forever and there are no other reasons why that peanut butter could be appearing there. It would definitely never be in order to condition us to feel comfortable with entering the box and spreading the message that this is where you get the free peanut butter!”

It also happened with doorbell cameras. If you'd have asked people ten years ago if it seemed reasonable for nearly every home to have an Internet-connected camera on the front facing the street (and neighbors' houses), I think you'd get pretty universally negative responses. Yet here we are.

I’m sporting a Life360, MoniMoto and AirTags on my moto. The Life360 seemed to have better range—until it just went offline. The AirTag is still working, though.

So I’m stoked to hear about a new tag with greater range.

does this update also enable precision finding from the watch? would this start working with the previous generation of airtags as well (currently you can use precision finding from your iphone, but not from the watch)

According the MacRumors, yes but they cant confirm if its only for the new AirTags yet:

"watchOS 26.2.1 is also coming, and it expands Precision Finding to the Apple Watch Series 9 and later, and Apple Watch Ultra 2 and later. We have not yet confirmed if this is for the new AirTag only or also works with the original model."

From the linked article:

> For the first time, users can use Precision Finding on Apple Watch Series 9 or later, or Apple Watch Ultra 2 or later, to find their AirTag, bringing a powerful experience to the wrist.

The AirTag is a fantastic device.

If only it were usable with an Android phone :(

Dual-network tags certainly exist, posted above.

https://www.amazon.com/Tracker-Locator-Android-Bluetooth-Fin...

I read they are popular with drug distributors. They ship their merch world wide using various hidden channels and couriers and this helps keep track of the merch.

Sounds like one of those "what if..." things someone made up.

AirTags are terrible for surreptitious tracking, alerting every iOS user nearby of a tracked product following them around.

I mean, years ago people, such as stalkers, would use it for this purpose, but Apple rightly gimped that. There are a lot of specialized, self-connected trackers that creeps and criminals use.

Well, to be historically accurate: Apple has pretty much been forced by the backlash to notify people that they're being tracked and even then it only worked if you had an iPhone.

They knew what they were doing and I'm sure the stalking aspect helped their sales significantly as it seems to be a very popular behaviour in the US.

Sure, that's accurate. I actually never said otherwise, nor did I saint Apple. They were basically forced to do it.

Virtually any tracking or surveillance has a knock-on effect that we often overlook in our enthusiasm, but Apple absolutely should have foreseen the abuse that would happen, and certainly profited off of it.

> the stalking aspect helped their sales significantly

while not denying people have done this, I do have problems thinking that it was a significant portion of the sales numbers. exaggerating problems is not necessary and actually reduces the credibility of the people doing the exaggerating

And simultaneously gimped the theft-alert use case. I embedded one into my labelmaker, which is a notoriously high-theft item on jobsites. I can still track it in case I leave it behind, which is great.

But if someone steals it, they get an alert that there's an airtag traveling with them, and they can go through their loot to figure out which item it is, and ditch it, or destroy it. In the first case I get my labelmaker back, but I never bust the thief.

I've only been notified about a device traveling with me one time, and it was when a relative was riding home with me in my car. When we got home, I received a notification that there were AirPods Pro traveling with me.

This is consistent with my understanding that it only goes off if it travels with you for a very long time, or to your house. (Of course, at that point it's too late because they know where you live already.)

To all available information, your home has nothing to do with the alert. The alert occurs if one of the trackable items (airtag, airpods, etc) is moving with you, but the registered owner is not within bluetooth connectivity of the device. I've had it happen with my son's airpods a number of times because he let his phone battery die, triggering the alert for any other iPhone nearby if moving simultaneously with this tracker.

I'm not sure what I'm to make of your absence of your alerts. Perhaps that happens because you have no such trackers moving with you? Like, are you saying you do and there are false negatives?

Apple's documentation indicates that notifications are in some cases triggered by the fact that a device has followed you to your home or other "significant location". [1]

1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874

It goes the other way around. Enabling significant locations allows your device to queue up notifications like that to basically be "you have arrived" updates, versus while you are driving or otherwise engaged having a sudden notification go off, which some people find alarming. It doesn't require significant locations, but that's when it might decide to wait to tell you.

I have followed this issue somewhat carefully over the years and my understanding differs from yours. Can you show sources that indicate that it is the other way around? I have experienced the notification coming at home even when the phone was not set to a driving mode beforehand, so notifications would not have been silenced.

I put one in my car when I shipped it across the country - it was great to be able to check where it was and know when it was getting close!

I read this literally just after I ordered 4 AirTags. Great.

You have 14 days to return them.

not in all countries

Not all retailers take returns. But the old ones were likely on sale, have been for a while.

He should have bought them directly from Apple then.

Third party sellers offer bigger discounts, but lesser return policies are generally part of the tradeoff.

I could return them. But I wonder how long it will take before the new AirTags are available in stores?

store.apple.com will tell you.

Did you buy it with a credit card that offers an "extended return" policy?

I was really hoping for a new form factor or new killer features. Its too bad that the general public can't behave themselves with simple tech like this

I have an older AirTag, which cannot be seen by my iPhone any more but gives a slight beep whenever it gets shaken. Anyone ever heard of the behavior?

The battery needs changed.

Changing the battery was the first thing I did. No change. But if that is the official signal for "battery low", I can try a few more. Thanks.

Make sure the battery doesn’t have bitterant coating on the edge where it meets the AirTag contact.

The first time I replaced my AirTag batteries I had to remove some of the coating or it wouldn’t power the AirTag.

Thats worth a try, because if the batteries have that, trying several ones of the same brand would produce the same results.

Now, do I try to test this by licking the battery or should I try to sand the surface without pre-testing? :)

Oh yeah totally, that “feature” of a Duracell cr2032 battery screwed me over in that exact case. They just don’t work at all with an AirTag (battery bought from afaik reputable supplier, Home Depot). Switched to Energizer cr2032 and it’s been great.

Tried with a cleaned new battery. It beeps when I put the battery in, that is it. When I scan for unknown objects, I get shown an air tag, but it doesn't tell me anything about it. So probably I should just remove the battery - I must have gone through a heap of them debugging this - and just smash it.

IIRC, this indicates that it's linked to someone else's account, and has not been shared with you. The "beep when moved" feature is to alert people they're being tracked.

For example, I let my mother in law use luggage of mine with an airtag still in it and every time she moved it after the first day or so, it would play a noise.

I had the thought too, but there is no way anyone else could have gotten physical control over this and shouldn't I see that AirTag when I scan for things in my surrounding as an anti-tracking protection?

I've had similar issues -- consider it a bug -- and unpair and re-pair with your phone, and likely the issue will go away.

I think I unpaired it, but I cannot pair it again, as it isn't recognized by the iPhone at all.

i’ve had this happen due to going from beta builds to stable builds or vice versa. not super clear exactly which of those triggered it, or whether it was just a beta build bug, but the 5x reboot always fixes it

I had a similar problem, the 5 reboots fixed it: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102577

Mine started doing this and the reason was an Android phone I had laying around with an app that scanned for airtags.

Basically it thought it was being used for stalking (close to an unknown device) and started beeping. Turning off the android phone stopped that.

The new AirTag requires a compatible iPhone with iOS 26 or later, or iPad with iPadOS 26 or later.

Oh come the fuck ON. I'm not installing your silly fuzzy UI, Apple. Get over it.

For real. This just went from insta-purchase to "guess I'll have one someday, but not anytime soon".

I use these to help keep track of my kids, but I'll probably get them AWs before I upgrade to 26 in all honesty.

Actually, I feel the same! The new UI is so absolutely terrible that I’ve decided to sit this version of iOS out. So I also will not buy the new AirTags for the same reason!

They don't seem to get that if it costs less people will buy more of them. I'm not doing to spend $29 to track a $100 item.

I'm sure Apple appreciates the advice, especially considering how few people buy their pricey phones and accessories.

C'mon, this is the same company that sells a $230 sock for your phone. And they sold out of the first batch. Apple knows their market, and some people...don't.

AirTag (and FindMy for devices like phones, tablets, etc.) might be my favorite iOS/Apple feature and one that I use regularly.

I wonder what changes they made to the firmware, as the first generation you could “fix” it so it doesn’t notify people nearby.

Apple AirTag is one of those interesting products that you don’t think you need until you use it. An Apple thing that just works as advertised and is cheap enough that you can keep picking them up at Airports, without the guilty feeling that usually comes with buying high-priced Apple products, such as the Polishing Cloth. And when you order it online, the nice engravings are fun for my daughters. They like it when it is pinged, finding their toys and bags, and it is worth the price tag.

I had to put in a few of my daughter’s pencil pouches and some toys; they are cheaper than the AirTags and, financially, make no sense to lose an AirTag that costs more than the items being tracked. But hey, daughter is happy, and that covers up for the cost.

There's a value in sentimentality that doesn't always reflect in the financial value of a thing.

AirTags are such a killer feature.

I have multiple in places like my bike, wallet and so on.

They have paid themselves so many times over and over.

They're really cool, I just wish they weren't an iPhone accessory. If I could do everything from my Mac I'd consider them, but Apple likes to assume every Apple customer also has an iPhone.

Just bought 3 packs of 4 for family this past Xmas. Now a much better version for the same price. Great.

Nice, does it support Android yet?

It supports Android, but does Android support it?

And you have to update to the new shitty ios.... I'd rather loose my stuff then.

What's the non-apple solution for someone who runs a homenas with their own maps server, home assistant, self hosted website? Any one had luck with a better solution that is more efficient with this closed we-will-make-you-fork-999$-per-year and wall garden your data behemoth.

Would privatizing police help?

I have requested theft a number of times, even presented video footage. I was surprised they ask you fill out bureaucratic paperwork and at the end they do nothing, after all these taxes we pay in Europe.

The key ring costing more than the AirTag itself is wild

But the real question is... is the speaker still glued on?

Tim Cook should use one to find his moral compass

God damn it. I just got a four pack.

And they didn't put a small loop in it so you can attach one of those skinny little lanyard hoops?!

Attaching these things to anything is their major flaw.

/picard facepalm

How else can they make you buy a keychain holder that costs more than the AirTag itself?

I've bought all of mine on Aliexpress.

So ... not much of a dastardly plan from Apple?

How long do they last?

I've had mine since release, every single one still works.

Had to change batteries a few times.

I hate the stupid things. Or rather, I hate that I cannot on my android phone click "yes I know this air tag, it's owned by my wife, please stop notifying me that it's tracking me every single time I go anywhere". What an absolutely monumental annoyance in usability that doesn't seem to have any way to override it.

Is this just to lock out the cheap clones?

I was hoping for 6DoF sub-mm realtime tracking. My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

Would be great, but that, world-wide, for millions of objects, probably is a case of putting your expectations too high.

Has that ever been demonstrated for a single object, even if allowing the object to be a thousand times as large as this?

Just have an unique ipv6 address on every object. Easy.

why do you need that?

Pure visual object tracking in visionOS is considerable laggy (even with increased detection rate). Natively tracked peripherals (Logitech Muse, PSVR2 controllers) are super responsive, but are designed for hands and are too specialized. There is a place for generic 6DoF tracking device that can be attached to any object you want to track. This could be tiny IR LED array if you want to track it inside the field of view, but when you need precise position outside of your FoV, your options are limited.

I hate that this eventual e-waste wasn't standardized across vendors. It makes perfect sense for every phone to be a potential node, but the network is bifurcated (and possibly more bifurcations within Android due to Google's privacy-first approach...).

Maybe a hot take, but I don't think this is as awful for e-waste as many other things.

I've had a set of airtags for a good few years now (shortly before Covid, I think?) and they mostly just kinda work. They don't insist upon a need to upgrade, the only part that ever goes bad is the battery -- which is a standard, user-replaceable CR2032, and while batteries going into the garbage isn't fantastic, there's really only so much you can do as long as depend on them.

Like -- this announcement is technically an upgrade, but I've never been less tempted to actually buy into it because the existing product does what it does plenty well enough for my needs.

I do think it's a bit funny to highlight anything Google does now as privacy-first, though. I can't play back Youtube embeds in Waterfox because the browser's default privacy-preserving setting doesn't send referrer information to those embeds, which Youtube now requires for embeds to work. As much as I take issue with Apple's politics over the past year, they do tend to lean towards on-device logic where possible, and their work in the homomorphic cryptography niche has been interesting to follow.

Please don't put your CR2032 in the garbage. Use battery disposal points for that.

I use the terms interchangeably when it comes to batteries; I do use battery disposal bins, but I don't have any faith that the actual process behind the scenes is much less impactful for the environment.

It's like when I learned that many paper recycling programs end up combining paper with regular garbage, or finding out that plastic recycling is comically ineffective in its outcomes.

Batteries in the trash are also a fire hazard. It's not just for the environment.

That took a long time. Better late than never.

Late? When did Apple originally announce that it would be released?

Is this demonstrably better that just... the devices already in your bag? My backpack would be a primary use case... and in it are my AirPods, iPad, and MacBook Air. I think any of these can use Find My already?

Maybe not if one of those items is always in your backpack. A few other use cases that I think they're great for:

- Throw one in your checked bag when traveling

- Mount one in a relatively concealed location on your bike

- Keychain (depending on if you're prone to misplacing your keys)

In addition to your first use case, multiple airlines are now supporting AirTag for bag tracking.

As is noted on the linked article. Some airlines have specific software that can do it if you share the tag with them - and the sharing will automatically stop when you receive the bags.

I use AirTags on car keys and wallets.

I have them on my dogs' collars, because squirrels exist.

Cats collars here, as an insurance measure if they were ever to sneak outside. They're also handy to locate them around the house for various reasons.

Airtags use Find My as well once you're out of bluetooth range. The tag offers more precision once you get into range, down to inches supposedly whereas Find My is more of a general 30 ft radius

For that one item, no not really. But an AirTag has a battery life of about a year and there's really no reason to frequently remove it. AirPods have a substantially shorter battery life and are not guaranteed to be in that bag all the time no matter what. Also AirTags are many times cheaper and smaller than your listed items and are moderately water and impact resistant. If there's something you want to track in addition to your backpack you likely don't want to buy spare AirPods (your cheapest item) just for that purpose.

The battery life of AirPods in a case (what GP is referring to) is quite long. I don't know how long, but I'd guess weeks/months if you're not using them. Obviously a single AirPod out of the case would last much less time (though still days, IME).

They might not be for you.

I don’t know how many people have bought them, but I’m going to guess it’s in the millions since Apple are updating it. All those people presumably do find it useful separate from their devices.

Personally I don’t always have an Apple device in my backpack, and when traveling you can’t put devices in checked luggage, so I use them for those use cases at least.

Are they less prone to stalking? All I see is generic corpo "industry security" verbiage

The most stalkable users are android users, but even that it's going away with newer androids. And it already beeps when you move it if it's been away from the owner for too long.

I know because I have an android phone and a not-so-used ipad and mine beep all the time.

What stalking scenario are you worried with?

Have you not seen the stories? Put one of these on the underside of an ex's car

How does that avoid the Android/iPhone unknown AirTag warning features?

And it would notify your ex that you did so, no?

Apple has already done more than enough to discourage stalking. We shouldn’t nerf all our technology to the ground because assholes exist.

It's too late when they are notified. The last known address is where the victim is at.

The perpetrator has to already find the victim, and physically be there, to put the tag on the car

Meeting could happen in public, it doesn't mean they know their private address.

For example, meet someone at a convention/fair/job, gift/sell them something which has a hidden tag, and then wait for them to drive to their hotel, or home. Gotcha. With influencer and celebs, you can also send something to their agency, and hope they are re-routed to their home. S** like that happened quite often until people learned to be more careful. Probably still sometimes happens even now.

I'm sure idiots do this but it's a pretty high risk way to try to track someone. IME the tracking notifications are timely enough that you're going to have a good idea where they came from. Actual GPS trackers are cheap on Amazon, have better accuracy, and don't notify people they exist -- they just don't have the public's mindshare nearly as much.

On the car, not on the car at the victim's house.

Or the much more, frankly common, scenario is: a $15 plushie bought through Amazon wishlist, sold by PerpOwned LLC for $500, and delivered through Amazon warehouse. That's actually happening.

I don't know why anyone with a budget would choose to use an Airtag that notifies nearby iPhones and makes noise when you move it around. If Amazon lets you ship arbitrary items to people's private address, that sounds like a vulnerability with Amazon that is far more severe than simply shipping Airtags.

Isn't it easy to disable the speaker?

“Easy” in relative terms for people who hack on electronics. Even if you remove the speaker, modern phones will tell the victim that someone else’s AirTag is moving along with them, unless the owner of the AirTag is also present.

Not sure about that. My Android warns me about my wife's airtags so often, that if I would actually be tracked by a malicious airtag, I would just assume it's one of my wife's tags. This could be prevented if I could mark a tag to be trusted on my Android phone, but no such feature exists.

There were rumors that this version makes the speaker harder to remove (I remove the speaker from the previous version when I put them in my own cars & motorcycles to make them harder to find). Looking forward to a teardown...

It looks like the anti-stalking mechanism remains the same: if your iPhone detects that a non-paired AirTag is traveling with you you'll get a persistent notification about it.

I've seen these myself for my partner's AirTag when I was carrying her stuff.

Apparently Android 6+ can warn you about AirTags in the same way, since May 2024: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/05/apple-and-google-deli...

The way Find My has been built, it doesn't really matter what they do with the tags, it's fairly straightforward to build your own tags, or modify tags, that bypass any stalking detection.

A phone's stalking detection just looks for a tag that's not yours that has been around you for a while.

But you can modify a tag such that it selectively powers up, or build a tag that changes identifiers, such that the stalking detection tools don't pick it up.

I've written a bit about this here: https://www.hotelexistence.ca/further-thoughts-on-stealth-ai... https://www.hotelexistence.ca/exploring-bluetooth-trackers-a...

The greatest success of AirTags is its silent refutation of the clamoring concern trolling.

It's been, what, six years now? The media would pay hand over fist for an airtags stalking story and how many have there actually been?

You mean how many where perp was caught?

The woman who ran over her cheating boyfriend was caught.

https://www.ktvu.com/news/woman-allegedly-tracks-boyfriend-w...

I'm guessing murder is probably easier to prove than rape.

Are you saying there is definitely no unsolved crime involving airtag?)

I mean, i remember a lot of posts about people using them for stalking. It's unclear if this has been addressed or if the concern has been deprioritized, or if apple solved the problem somehow.

I mean it was enough of a concern that Android added a "detect airtags" feature to the base android OS.

Apple had its version of "stalking detection" (that equivalent of Android's "detect airtags") from early rollout. (There's a screenshot in the attached article even.) Some of the scrutiny and early complaints was that ecosystem divide that needed Android to also support at least a basic form of that same feature before people would feel safe, and everyone knew that Apple themselves weren't going to build the Android version.

Both Apple and Android have had anti-stalking features for years.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com