It's written in anger, but I'm optimistic that this will eventually get fixed, and documenting bad experiences like this will help.
But the complaint it builds up to is that instance-wide bans can ruin you when there are super big instances, and that's not something that can be fixed.
It's also true that big instances have a lot of power and it's going to require a lot of growth of alternative instances to fix that, which will take time. At least it's possible, though. It's an intended outcome.
We should only build peer to peer social protocols.
Websites and communities should simply sample from the swarm and make it easy for non-technical users to post and consume. They should be optional and not central points of failure (or control).
{Twitter, YouTube, Reddit, Instagram, TikTok, WhatsApp, Discord} should work like {Email, BitTorrent, PGP}.
Bluesky and Mastodon are the wrong architecture.
The web, fancy javascript UI/UX, and microservices shouldn't be the focus. The protocol should be the focus.
A fully distributed protocol would dictate the solution to this exact problem.
Obviously, it’s early days, and hopefully there is even more experimentation in the p2p space. But atproto architecture is a very fair experiment in this space. I can store my data on my own server, use a client app I wrote, subscribe to a specific aggregation/feed service I prefer, use the moderation list I want… all while still being connected to the larger protocol & network. It’s pretty neat.
Unfortunately that means the implementation needs to reach all the way into the network layer.
You design it with those requirements in mind? There’s no fundamental technical limitation at play here.
People want to build store and forward systems because that is their mental model of the problem. store and forward system are fine, and there are many advantages to them, but direct request systems scale much better. basically have each user fetch their messages from the locations they want rather than delivering the messages to them. think how the web works vs how email works.
Presumably by fusing the P2P and federated models together. There's no particular reason those two models can't coexist within the same protocol. It just hasn't been created yet.
Similar to how a good mesh networking implementation will make use a high bandwidth backhaul such as the internet if it's available.
But people don't want to run an always-online server to send their stuff to peers, so they host it on the main bsky servers. The problem with p2p is UX; people don't want to DIY their server.
What do you think is wrong about Mastodon? Genuinely curious because I also am super skeptical that ATProto brings anything that we really need.
The same problems as always. Allow federation and you get...
- federation wars and moderators conducting these wars using their own users as hostages - I left Mastodon years ago when some particularly dumb morons decided to do bitchfights regarding Israel / Palestine. No I'm not interested in your pointless squabble, but I do care when I suddenly don't see posts from a bunch of users without even getting a notification...
- Mastodon-specific, when you move your account from one instance to another (e.g. as response to above-mentioned BS) your followings and followers migrate - but all your posts and media do not
- spam, trolls and griefers abusing the system, up to and including sending around CSAM material that inevitably gets sucked in by your instance, making you liable in the eyes of the law
- security issues. Mastodon has been full of these, no thanks I don't have the time to be constantly on guard lest I be exploited from above-mentioned griefers.
- other instances not giving a flying fuck about moderation or abuse going out from their instances.
Creating a Mastodon account shouldn't mean supporting the particular political affiliation of the moderators, but I think it feels that way for many of the instances.
I'd like to do so, yes, but that exposes me to a (not insignificant) financial cost, (especially in Germany) a significant legal risk from CSAM/DMCA et al., and a significant amount of effort in maintenance.
Sure, there are "Mastodon as a service" providers that take at least the legal risk and maintenance off of me, but again, these cost even more money, and now I have the risk that the hoster is a fly-by-night operation that one day decides to close up shop for whatever reason.
And if anything happens to that private instance (say, the hoster disappears, the machine disappears without a backup, or the hoster undergoes an orderly shutdown), in the best case I still may have enough preparation to migrate the followers, but the old content is lost in any case. And that is bad.
In contrast with Bluesky and to a lesser degree Twitter, I can at least be reasonably sure that the provider does not vanish over night.
It's true that this solution doesn't work for private posts and DMs, but the n in O(n^2) is much smaller there, so I don't think it's as much of an issue for personal data servers to communicate directly in those cases.
Mastodon doesn't change this, it just changes who the admins are. It lets a person under the jurisdiction of admin A interact with a person under the jurisdiction of admin B, which is better than fully-centralized X, but it doesn't solve the fundamental problem. Your instance admin can still ban you with no recourse (account migration is incomplete, requires cooperation on both sides, and mostly exists to shut up Activitypub opponents who point these problems out). They're still just as (if not vulnerable) to government pressure as centralized social media, and considering that a single lawsuit could probably bankrupt most instances, I suspect they'd fold very very quickly. They can (and very often do) defederate from instances that post "too much nazi content", and if you disagree with the decision, there's again no recourse (you can migrate, but you won't get your lost relationships back).
Worse, they defederate instances that don't also defederate instances that they dislike badly enough so you can't even have neutral instances where you can communicate with everyone.
You can run your own ingestion algorithms, and one of the things you can do is set up inbound rules that incorporate micro transactions.
We have to build a lot of infrastructure to make this work, but it seems ideal for a world full of agents and autonomous systems acting on our behalf.
And who besides a spammer would pay more than $0 to have their message read by you? If I wrote a blog post about vulnerabilities of blockchains, or how I ran Doom on a pregnancy test, and you don't read it because I'm not paying you, you're losing value, not me. You guarantee an inbox of only spam — but at least you get paid for it.
If someone wants me to ingest something novel from far outside my network, one way to gain reputation might be to pay a microtransaction fee. I'd be free to choose to set that up as a part of my ingestion algorithm. Or maybe my peers do it, and if they "upvote" the content, I see it.
If my peers start acting poorly and sending spam, I can flag disinterest and my algorithm can naturally start deboosting that part of the network.
With such systems-level control, we should be able to build really excellent tooling, optimization, and statistical monitoring.
Also, since all publications are digitally signed, your content wouldn't have to be routed to me through your node at all. You could in fact never connect to the swarm and I could still read your content if you publish it to a peer that has distribution.
Perhaps you could consider toning down the absolutism. This is true in many or most cases, but certainly not all cases. Let's take, for example, video games. I can afford to purchase any game that interests me, and do. However, I often go several months between new game purchases, because I am not aware of any games that interest me that I do not already own. An advertisement for a game does not need to convince me to purchase it over an alternative product, it simply needs to make me aware of its existence and broadly convey what the game is about so that I will know whether it matches my specific game interests closely enough to investigate further.
Particularly in the modern world of hyper-specialised interests, it's quite easy to get into a niche of a hobby where you have found and already purchased all of the things you are aware of. As another example, there are hyper-specific novel genres where there are at most a couple of dozen entries in that genre and you are able to read every single entry in it. You are still interested in that genre, and will likely purchase anything else in it, should you become aware of it. Enter the benevolent advertisement, which makes you aware of its existence in a mutually beneficial way wherein you get more of the content you are interested in consuming and the creator gets money.
I agree that it does not need to do more than inform you - but that doesn't mean it won't do more. Please show me a single advertisement for a game that doesn't use bombastic language, show highly selective graphics, or appeal to a sense of nostalgia. I for one haven't seen one, even ones for the niche indie games I respect the most. Sure, not all commercials are equally deceitful, but they are all meant to be persuasive more than informative.
Still, I think this is such a tiny minority of real advertisment that it's barely worth mentioning. For example, here is a trailer for the original The Binding of Isaac, which (while being an interesting piece of art in itself, which many ads are) is stil clearly not just meant to inform consumers about the game, but instead is meant to sell a certain image of the game that it may or may not invoke in you:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iDFnMfJnI7s
I'd also note that advertisments for artistic products such as games are some of the most ambiguous about the line between informative and persuasive, as the "feel" (atmosphere, tone, persuasive storytelling etc) of the final product is an intrinsic part of its value in a way that is not relevant for, say, produce, or consumer goods. It could be argued, for example, that the Story trailer for Elden Ring captures a real and important part of the appeal of that game, despite it including 0 details about the gameplay, and despite it being entirely original footage and dialog that is not in any way part of the game itself. The same ambiguity doesn't exist about an ad showing the glamorous lifestyle of someone who gets a mobile phone plan from company X, in contrast.
Nice in theory. In practice spammers will plant malware to steal microtransaction money from random people and push paid content down your throat for almost nothing. When you propose a novel model that will fix all the current problems, the first thing you need to think is how a bad actor would exploit it.
If you make everything explicitly transactional, you will be left with only people trying to make a profit.
There are so many heuristics and models you can use to filter.
And this disregards the simple fact that the only people willing to pay to have their words seen are people who are getting more money out of this - i.e. spammers (and yes, advertising in general, including "influencers", is spam in my book).
If you're a real person, then yes, it is valuable to show you things.
Want to know how I'm right? Because fingerprinting browsers and tracking people is how we establish that they are real in the current advertising world. Advertisers pay for that. Thus it has value.
In fact, judging by the Exodus of non-scammers, only scammers will pay to send you their messages—which makes sense, since they're the ones who expect to turn a profit.
Yeah, but I'm not. It's spam. And the people whose messages I do want to see are overwhelmingly not going to pay $20 to show it to me.
This is a system that selects exclusively for advertisements. Nobody would want this.
No one would want this? Again I don't think you understand what I am proposing.
It isn't a a system that selects exclusively for ads. It selects for people you know, then people they know, and so on, and fades out how often posts show up the further away you get. If someone pays more, then more people will see their message in their network as it compensates people for their attention, starting with the people who value their attention the least.
No one would want this? You think people don't want to get paid for their attention? This is essentially what a job is.
In practice, email is much less federated than it seems. A significant proportion of people are just using gmail. You probably don't have to include that many providers to cover a majority of people in the US.
I think federation has promise, but federation in itself is not a solution. Technical approaches do not address the more fundamental issue that, regardless of the mechanics of the system, big players will have more influence on its operation and evolution. Thus we will always need sociopolitical mechanisms to restrict big players.
If you want a fair comparison for reasoning about security related challenges and tradeoffs you should probably go with matrix.
Matrix simply doesn't solve some of the problems that email solves, or at least not in an e2e encrypted manner. For example, I can't send a document to a public institution's Matrix account, not in a manner that either (a) isn't e2e encrypted with no realistic risk of a MITM, or (b) doesn't require an out-of-band pre-approval, such as someone from the institution adding my account to some encrypted room.
Also, even if Matrix did find a way to make it easy to send e2e encrypted data to someone else without out-of-band communication, it would then suffer from the problem of spam. Every client would have to filter all incoming messages for spam, instead of being able to centralize this work at the server level.
Out of band confirmation is similarly universal unless you're okay with either TOFU or delegation. (Delegation being recursively subject to the same choice.) TLS on the web goes with delegation and a root certificate store obviously.
My point being that none of this is specific to either email or federation more generally.
Even the web suffers from problems of trust to some extent, with the PKI being a huge vulnerability and relying on the collective action of all browser vendors to act as a check on any CA trying to break the agreed guarantees. But in a world where you would have a hundred, or even 20, different popular browsers, with different geopolitical assignments, it would be far harder to punish a CA that decided to sign certificates improperly, e.g. to allow some government or criminal enterprise to MITM communication.
Establishing identity in a non-centralized manner, and without requiring a second, already secure, communication method than the one you're trying to authenticate, such as an in-person key exchange, is in fact impossible, not just hard. There are partial solutions, with different trade-offs, such as the PKI for the web, the TOFU with optional verification options used in Matrix or SSH, or the web-of-trust model of PGP.
Like at least suggest old school forums, IRC, or usenet.
We need an open protocol of this concept.
That's essentially exactly what they're trying to solve for although focused on the Twitter use case rather than Discord. And also one of the key advantages of ATProto over ActivityPub.
One might also ask why P2P thesis statements only ever show up deep in the weeds in comment sections in response to the fediverse when logically speaking they would make just as much sense if not more in response to, say, any post about Facebook as a company or social media writ large, or business news about acquisitions, consolidation of web infrastructure into fewer hands, enshittification, or escalations of control over platforms.
Again, I'm fully on board with the dream of P2P but it feels like Buzz Aldrin criticizing Neil Armstrong for not doing enough to bring humanity into the space age.
The fundamental distinction between a communication network that is p2p and one that is federated is the storage mechanism.
For p2p the network itself is the storage, and as a participating node you connect and retrieve what is addressed to you while the amorphous data blob that contains said messages remains to float in the network. While for a federated network, the receiving node needs to be present on the network at all times to be able to access/receive the messages addressed to itself, after which the messages are absent from the network (to some degree or another).
Personally the overhead of having the network having to bear the weight of all its nodes data is too large to make it viable.