In a genre where spoilers are devastating, how do we talk about puzzle games?
thinkygames.com
thinkygames.com
Like many, I stopped playing my first time over a frustration with the jet pack and ship movement controls.
I returned later, this time determined to master the movement controls only to find that after mastering them you eventually abandon perfect movement for efficiency anyways and perfect gameplay looks a lot like the initial flailings.
Anytime you get 'stuck' in the game the answer is always, "what have you tried, what can you try instead?" Illuminating the tendency to presuppose an answer, and grow frustrated when it fails repeatedly.
It's certainly a "just play it without looking up anything about it" game. I went in without being spoiled by the "first surprise" that is referenced in this article and was stunned when I figured it out.
Swapping FPS violence for scientific and archaeological discovery, and a wholesome story centered on the social bonds of music make for a truly wonderful gaming experience.
I highly recommend the game to anyone.
The two games the article has pictures of games are IMO everyone who plays games should play; they are two of the best of all time.
What are the games you're recommending?
“How do we talk to people about these games without spoiling it for them? Oh, I know I will spoil it for everybody who reads this article!!!
“It’s one of my favorite in the genre (maybe the best) and it requires a level of secrecy because it takes away the wow factor if you learn details about it early, but ANYWAYS here’s some details about it!!!!!!!!”
1. The game has depth to its locations that shows up on repeated visits. Expect to return with better tools/information to see new things. Shortcuts will reveal themselves over time.
2. There is an in-game tool that takes notes for you, hints at undiscovered content, and can provide on-screen waypoints to help you navigate.
3. Don't be too worried about your (avatar's) personal safety, or about rushing. Later there may be times where both might matter for your goals, but the game is designed to support trial-and-error.
FWIW while I enjoyed watching other people play Outer Wilds, I found the fine control needed too frustrating. I might decide to investigate part of Brittle Hollow, travel there, fall into the hole, painstakingly get back, fall in again, reset, new day. That's exactly the same frustration you had, but for a different reason and as a result I was often unable to tell which of three things was true:
1. That cannot be done, it's an important fact about Outer Wilds, a revelation
2. I can't do that, I'm incompetent. Sucks to be me. Maybe try again?
3. That cannot be done, whoops, game engine limitation, unimportant.
I never had this in Blue Prince and so I was much better able to enjoy both the game itself and watching others play after I was done (Atelier etc.)
And another (smaller) issue is the step limit. End game has you running to pretty far away areas. The walking itself quickly gets old, but you sometimes waste the entire run because you didn't have enough steps for the required back-and-forth.
That being said, I greatly enjoyed how note-taking was rewarded. By the end I had over 600 screenshots organized in different folders.
The step limit is an important resource. There's a reason one of the early goals of the game (in Bequest and to some extent Dare modes) is to have more steps at the start of each day and why an important penalty of Curse mode is that you only have 13 steps. As with other resources like keys, you can learn to make better use of what you have and also how to get more of it within reason. I don't think it's as good of a game without Steps. They're not (outside Curse mode) scarce enough to commonly end a run, but they matter.
I wouldn't suggest removing steps entirely, but maybe something softer than abruptly ending the day. After exhausting my steps, let me walk around without drafting rooms and picking up items, for example.
And the late game puzzle quality was very hit-and-miss for me. I loved the sigils, for example, and appreciated the permanent upgrades/changes. Other puzzles required putting disparate items/ideas together, but by then the game had expanded too much and it was unclear what paths were exhausted, still useful, or simply fluff, and the randomness made every check time-consuming.
But also, I am one of the people that the drafting mechanic directly conflicted with my interest in progressing the game. That lack of being able to focus on a particular thread of my choice affected my interest in the game. I didn't want to juggle every thread all at once, especially without knowing which threads are the most interesting to pull ahead of time.
I think this sort of "If I just keep banging my head against it, then it will break" attitude is a problem and Blue Prince was a much nicer experience for discouraging that but of course each person is different.
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Sure, but it's still sold as a game you can complete with a KB+M, and--to its credit--it succeeds at that promise basically everywhere else. The defect is how it fails "hard" rather than just being a momentary inconvenience:
1. The issue is hidden and surprising: When it finally appears, it presents like a misunderstanding of clues, or an AI bug. A PC user who has done well for hours with KB+M has no reason to suddenly expect a new non-obvious game mechanic will be impassable* due to the control scheme. (Which is exactly why I felt it was worth mentioning in a list of tips.)
2. No good workaround: Even if the user realizes what's happening, there's not much* you can do about it. The game still punishes you even if you try to feather the inputs with brief taps. Just one additional keybind option (e.g. "slow thrust forward") would have helped.
* Excepting buying a controller, or multiple error-prone attempts at setting your ship on an ultra-slow passive drift for minutes while you do something else.
Faced with such a statement, the contrarian in me spent a little while trying to remember any exceptions. I won't say "the ship's computer", since that would be against the spirit of the thing, and by extension certain things involving signals/waypoints.
I think certain actions with the Advanced Warp Core would qualify, breaking the usual progression rules and often leading to an alternate ending.
Introduces what is easily my favorite planet, and a completely new story of nearly identical length.
New characters, new tools, new mechanics, new puzzles. Same feel (except narratively its a bit more spoopy). It's like a selfquel.
(Also, worth noting that if you start a new game, you can just go straight to playing the DLC content without having to replay or complete the base game)
If you know that you frighten easily and don't react well to it - like maybe you went in a haunted house ride once and then couldn't sleep for a week, this might not be your jam and that's OK.
It's not a skill issue, the game has been conceived so that if you scare easily but keep playing you can work around the issue and succeed. But obviously if after that initial moment of terror you just can't face playing any more that's not a good purchase.
Still spooky atmosphere for sure.
The controls are wonky but it’s not a AAA title, so there are things about it that are a little rough for sure.
A puzzle game I liked 100x more is “Baba is You”. Should be very appealing to programmers.
Outer Wilds, though, what a game. but it felt more like exploring in BotW, even although there is obviously no combat... kinda? there is sort of "combat" in one of the planets, although the only thing that you can do is lose. hmm, that planet is like BotW, but you have 3 hearts and a stick, and every enemy is a Lynel.
And when I finally put the game down and just watched through the rest on Youtube, like, I could see what the game was getting at and why people would be fascinated by it but it was by no means life-changing unless you've had a very boring life.
If this were objectively true that the game is simply transcendent (assuming we can agree on what this would mean), then it would make sense to power through an otherwise unexpectedly arduous game that you thought was going to be more akin to a puzzle game, because of the experience you would be able to take with you and ponder afterwards. The destination would make the rough journey worth it.
Having bought and played through much of the game based on the evangelism for it online, I simply want to make clear that it should not be considered a unanimous opinion that the game is transcendent and that a rough journey would therefore be worth it.
Saying too much about the game itself would spoil it for people who would enjoy it, but those who might be leery of it deserve to know that it's still a game, can still be unenjoyable if it's not your thing, and that you won't necessarily miss an irreplacable life-changing positive experience if you don't knock it off of your Bucket List.
I apologize for going against the orthodoxy with regard to this game, but people deserve to know they're not alone if they didn't find it the experience it was advertised to be.
I didn't find the game to require much dexterity, but I did find it to have interest world design and ideas that have stuck with me for years.
If nothing else, there are some sections which have somewhat tight time windows which can put a lot of tension into a puzzle game. Resetting an attempt to a failed set piece might take several minutes, adding to the frustration.
Why this shitty jab at the end? What a needlessly petty thing to say.
I don't know if I'm missing something that would make the game click for me, or if I just won't enjoy it. I can't ask anyone, because I'll ruin it if I am actually missing something.
Anyway, that aside, it's a great game, you get a board where you can see everything you've discovered, whether you missed anything important, and links to other things you can pursue still. Or just go to a random planet / place of interest.
As someone who’s played a lot of video games, very few gameshave come close to the experience that was Outer Wilds.
Textbook definition of a game I wish I could forget so I could play again for the first time.
Blue Prince is the best puzzle game in the past 10 years.
I’m not going to sue the author, obviously; but it sounds as though he enjoys puzzle games in a different way and for a different reason from me, and I find it hard to relate to his feelings about them.
If your plan is to cheat as soon as you get stuck, I can’t imagine why you would choose to play a puzzle game at all. For me, what I enjoy about puzzle games is precisely the immense satisfaction that comes from conquering a well-designed puzzle after a struggle.
I will admit that sometimes once I figure out "the trick" to the puzzle, I'll cheat and grab the solution rather than working it out by hand.
There were a number of puzzles involving pushing boxes around, and something that really irritated me was that I would understand the solution but then have to go implement it by moving around and doing the pushing with somewhat clunky controls.
It was sort of interesting from a gameplay perspective - that feeling of "eureka" followed by "dammit, now I've gotta do this schlep work".
And then I know what I need to do, I know it's doable, and then I get frustrated trying to do it in game.
When I played through Blue Prince, I had an important area of the game undiscovered for in game weeks because I just didn't notice a path that was not meant to be hidden. It was in an area that it made no sense for me to further explore because it was challenging to get to and seemed to have nothing else to offer (I presumed until I had unlocked something further in the game). It was a big relief when I was talking through my progress with a friend who was further along than I, and they prompted me to go back and look again.
Also very glad I looked up the solution for the Obelisk puzzle in Fez as there was no way I was getting that (seemingly incredibly contrived, but apparently not correctly solved yet) solution.
[0] Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCHciE9CYfA
My limit might be lower than yours but I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong having a limit that means you shouldn’t play puzzle games.
I agree with you though. The idea of having my sudoku puzzle spoiled for me by giving me a critical digit seems totally alien. They might as well be the kid blurting out answers in math class, depriving everyone else of learning. Of course many kids in the class were happy to have the "freebies" even though it contributed to lack of skills down the road.
some of the harder ones I did screenshot and overlay in Inkscape and draw out the candidate shapes, which I guess isn't really cheating?
When I do the New York Times crossword too, I'll try to figure it out without hints. If no progress for 10-20 minutes, I'm opening google. I enjoy it more this way.
Have you never had a puzzle like that? Where the "struggle" would entail sitting there staring at the puzzle with 0 clue for a few hours? A majority of puzzle games I've played have 1 or 2 of these, and they aren't even bad games.
Weird thing to say in a thread where most of us are puzzle game fans. Who exactly are you speaking for?
When I think of puzzle games I think mostly of geometric reasoning problems like The Talos Principle and The Witness.
Yes?
> I find it is more like bringing the games difficulty down to an acceptable level.
Yes, that's what cheating usually does? Apart from the extinct sub-genre of cheats like big head mode.
Those are just easter eggs, which are not extinct.
Except they usually don't require you to do that. The so-called "moon logic" in those games might not follow the rules of our world but it is still a kind of logic that you can master nonetheless.
Wish someone would wipe my memories of that game so I can play it again.
Felt the same for years, now I am doing a new playthrough.
I figured, of course I know the solution to the puzzle, but I am hard pressed to remember all the details of how I uncovered that answer, and I know that you can uncover the clues in nearly any order so I know this playthrough will be new in its own way.
And I miss the world, and the gameplay.
>I keep wondering if there's a way to have that baked into the game.
Demon Souls' system of leaving little messages behind for other players is sort of similar.
https://www.reddit.com/r/outerwilds/wiki/index/gamerecs
I can vouch for Outer Wilds and Tunic being masterpieces, with Blue Prince getting a B+ from me.
On the other hand, it gets extra points for the in-game manual booklet. The mechanics, the metaphor, and the gorgeous execution should be required material in game design classes.
Perhaps one difference between the author and me is that I usually have closed-ended questions rather than open-ended questions like “give me a minimal clue that’s helpful but not obvious”, for which I’d trust ChatGPT far less.
Mario Maker 2 has a "Check Point" system where the software remembers whether Mario has reached one of two "Check Points" in the course and if so resets Mario to that point if/when he dies. You can only have zero, one or two such "Check Points". This leads to two important phenomena
1. Antis. A Soft Lock is a situation where Mario can't win, but also can't die, this is extremely frustrating because the player must start over, losing any progress. A good course designer ensures this never happens. But a twisted course designer does so by making it possible yet extremely difficult to die in this situation, thus the art of the "Anti-Soft-Lock" or just "Anti". The player is tricked into entering a situation in which they must complete some very difficult tasks, not to win but just to die and keep playing from a check point they've reached.
2. Knowledge Check Points. With only two CPs, a really elaborate course must either stretch considerably between the CPs, meaning players who die between CPs must re-do a lot of work and that's annoying OR invent a way to re-use them. There are tricks to re-use exactly two CPs plus the "Red Coins" from Mario which are kept when Mario dies, but a cleverer trick is to just have the player learn something which changes how they will behave.
My favourite KCP is an MM2 level where the player can't win... until they realise there's a way to obtain an important power up right at the start of the course, which then changes how they tackle everything else and opens up a route to success. The dead end you'd reach if you don't know about this, reveals that hidden power up.
Steam guides for Blue Prince are fantastic about this, and were extremely welcome to me once the RNG nature of the game stopped being exciting and started being a tedious obstacle. There's nothing quite like needing to spend several real world hours to try a puzzle solution that may be a complete waste of time, simply because the game doesn't really like to spawn the needed rooms (in an acceptable configuration) very often.
So it's still very fun to replay it with a randomizer for example.
I'm not someone who uses LLMs heavily, but I've found this kind of usecase suited my needs very nicely.
But it seems to me spoilers are mostly for narrative puzzle games, or secret twist / riddle puzzle games. There are a lot of puzzle games where you either can't look up the solution (games like Demon Bluff) or where looking up the solution/hints mostly spoils one level at worst (e.g. Baba is You).
A game where seeing a single screenshot ruins the experience wasn't very substantial to begin with.
> Because information equals progress in this genre, there’s typically no way to brute force the path forward whenever you find yourself truly stuck.
Except that is almost always possible - games by their very nature are usually very restricted in what you can do which makes exploration of all possible options possible. But usually better would be trying to reason about the problem. Looking up outside help is and has always been equivalent to giving up - which is fine if you don't want to solve the puzzle but definitely not needed to progress if you are patient.
I don't think that follows at all, I'm currently working through Blue Prince and the way in which that game gives you information later on which completely recontextualizes things you have encountered earlier makes it so that a screenshot of something could definitely rob you of experiencing that moment, which is a big part of the joy of that game.