European Alternatives
european-alternatives.eu
european-alternatives.eu
- https://altstack.jp for Japan
- https://worktree.ca/taffer/canadian-alternatives for Canada
- and ofc https://european-alternatives.eu/ for the EU
But I just wanted to point out that https://alternativeto.net/ recently (well, over a year ago) added a flag next to each suggestion so you can easily tell where its from. It's all crowd-sourced and I've both contributed to and greatly benefited from the project myself (especially for finding FLOSS alternatives to popular software). Here's an example
https://alternativeto.net/software/github/
I think the fact that it's crowd-sourced gives it a lot more staying power than a lot of these one-off projects that are presumably maintained by a single person or team.
The project has no backend and is purely browser-based, but I’m based in Europe and developing the project here, so I consider it a European project =)
I think the purpose of the site is more about the alternatives to 'large players', platforms and infrastructure companies. Still Constantin Graf should have clarified out of politeness but possibly he's busy or doesn't have time to respond to every email.
However I'd point out there is a market for European 'Product Hunt' that would include more of these smaller projects.
About European Product Hunt - very good idea.
I was thinking recently that we need more European social networks, messengers, etc.
It’s a very good time to build imo =)
Older members of HN will remember that Product Hunt probably came to life a lot because of HN and the submissions/comments from rrhoover (founder of Product Hunt). He's still active here, but before/during Product Hunt launch he was very active if I remember correctly.
Maybe a grander idea is a European Hacker News, that has the potential to spawn the European Product Hunts of tomorrow :)
This started out as an ideal about Goods. You make a Doodad in Venice, clearly there should be as few obstacles as possible to prevent somebody in Dublin having that Doodad, so no export taxes between Venice and Dublin, shared regulatory framework so that your Venice "This Doodad won't choke a baby/ burn down a house/ spy on you/ etc." paperwork is valid in Dublin, and so on.
But immediately people who make goods said well this rule needs to include Capital, it's great that I can sell Doodads from Venice in Dublin, but if I want to build a Doodad factory in Venice but my money is in Dublin that should be easy too. And Workers realised if it's just Capital and Goods then it's a race to the bottom for Labour, the Capital and Goods will go where it's cheapest but the workers can't move. So very soon Workers can move freely too, in order that Hans the Doodad Engineer can move to Venice and the courts ended up deciding that in practice everybody gets this freedom, a 5 year old can't have a job and a 105 year old probably doesn't want one, but maybe Hans needs to support his 5 year old grand-daughter and his 105 year old grandfather, so Freedom of Movement must apply to all EU citizens.
So, with that idea in mind, I suspect the EU's perspective is that you should come to Europe and write software here, rather than that you should stay exactly where you are and if it's not an EU country then too bad, no EU Product Hunt for you.
"The new government policy shouldn't require iPhones" is a long way from "Nobody can read The Onion", and even in its hardcore "Sign up for YCombinator" mode Hacker News really isn't anywhere close to the former.
Although because idiots I am no longer in the EU I'm in Europe too.
Ok, but what are your actual arguments against it? Again your comment contains things about the EU and US which I don't know why you keep bringing up.
Do you have any arguments against a European Hacker News that isn't related to the EU and US geopolitics or government policies?
I'm sure musicians and city dwellers could have some stories they're more interested in versus less interested in, but this gets into the newsgroup hierarchy problem where too much specialisation means there's nothing left to talk about. We presumably agree that a Hacker News for people named Brian who work at Meta is a bad idea?
I am sorry but no. This is a common myth, but go way back to the original treaty of Rome and you’ll see much more than free movement for goods. It was just a convenient first step.
However once I'd fought the EU's terrible web search I did sit and read a bunch of the actual Treaty of Rome, and yes that actually does very clearly specify Freedom of Movement for Workers and is broad enough in how it treats this freedom that it's not a surprise courts subsequently concluded that basically every EU citizen should be able to live anywhere in the EU.
Millions and millions of people need to make and send invoices. Many more than people who need domain name registrars, uptime monitoring services, content delivery networks, or microblogging services.
Open-source security framework (1). Applied 16 August 2025. Company registered in Switzerland (EFTA). No reply.
However, European Alternatives is a personal (sole proprietorship) website and has nothing to do with Europe, despite the name and style, which are slightly misleading as they mimic official EU website aesthetics.
Btw tirreno looks very cool, just starred on GitHub :)
Unfortunately they did really well at SEO at one time, and more active alternatives appear far below in the search results.
I've also found other problematic ones:
https://euro-stack.com/ (I couldn't understand how to submit a new entry)
https://www.goeuropean.org/ (all submissions fail with an AirTable error [sic] that the workspace is at the record limit)
A wordpress.com based website hosted in California by the US company Auttomatic
Fronted by Cloudflare, a US monopoly (this is probably part of wordpress.com paid subscription)
Edits its letter to EU Commission asking to support European IT industry in Microsoft Word.
Converts it to PDF with Adobe softwareMaybe this was enough to not include it?
=)
I plan to add a paid “pro” version with more features, but the current functionality will remain free.
https://info.addr.tools/bunq.com https://info.addr.tools/lifebit.ai https://info.addr.tools/tomtom.com
Starting working asap on this because in Poland (where I live) it will be required from April 2026.
Issue to follow: https://github.com/VladSez/easy-invoice-pdf/issues/121
Webpage: https://twonly.eu/en
Already done: replaced SendGrid with Sweego.
Later: move domains from US registrar to EU based.
The difficult bit is the Microsoft Office because we are also using Azure DevOps for code, tickets, wiki and ci/cd.
Unfortunately there's not that many and often the process is broken.
You are talking about DNS zone hosting which can be separate. And I always prefer to keep it that way.
Sometimes hosting companies suspend accounts. If that happens, it's useful to have your domains and backups with different providers.
Context: I used to run a domain-related service that used registrar api's and gandi's seemed the most well thought out by a considerable way. The drawback was they're quite expensive for registrations/renewals unless you're doing it at volume.
I had reservations about them being a French company wrt support but their API was so good I never needed to contact them on anything.
Definitely worth a look.
It's all in there.
Just moved all my hosting and dbs from a US company to Hertzner after 15 years of good service. Moving domains now.
Wero is another name for iDEAL, it has been pushed by Dutch, but it is an engineering fiasco.
There is no way Poland would adopt it. Blik is just on another level price- and feature-wise.
Side note: Looking at their job listings I don't see any engineering positions (with the exception of a security engineer which is a grey area in a bank IMO), only managers and business roles.
But you just answered your own question.
Wero is a money extraction business that secured European Commission support. There is no engineering nor payment system to it.
I am not deep into this, but I heard multiple times that the choice of the pan-european payment system was largely political and technnically suboptimal. Old Europe pushed for the aging iDEAL against a much more advanced Blink, so Eastern European banks led by Poland left the consortium.
In the end, iDEAL rebranded as Wero was dead on arrival because a successful system needs to be supported by everyone.
Wikipedia gives an overview by year.
As for the axe, I have no personal interest.
Sure I'd rather use Wero than PayPal -if it was decent- and building it on top of SEPA instant transactions is neat. But the lack of buyers protection is a deal breaker for me! And quite frankly I'd rather use a digital Euro governed by the ECB than some rent seeking hobby project by a bunch of private banks. Especially because they will inevitably enshittify it with ads and hostile BNPL like PayPal.
The digital Euro has not been implemented yet. Some analysts are skeptical but this is the EUs answer for Visa/Mastercard.
Why do European drug firms charge so much more for their drugs in the US than in Europe? That is an actual difference between what it is like to be in a consumer in US vs Europe. Even Bernie Sanders thinks it is a problem: https://www.npr.org/2024/09/24/nx-s1-5123689/novo-nordisk-ce...
https://wallethub.com/edu/credit-card-interchange-fees-by-co...
The EU had such a good deal with the US. But they couldn't resist making fun of us. They made fun of us for our military spending while we deterred Russia. They made fun of us for our health spending while we subsidized their drug development costs. They made fun of our long work hours, while demanding Ukraine contributions based on our high GDP (which is high in part because we work long hours). They talk so much about America's soft power in Europe, without realizing that Europe's soft power in America is practically all gone at this point.
Trump is only pushing that « free for all » policy even more, I wouldn’t expect to see things improve for you.
Instead of fixing your country and making the rich accountable, you’re being manipulated to look elsewhere.
Anyway, I believe that the eu cutting ties with the USA is the best thing that could happen to us and I’m glad you’re satisfied. We should have spent much more on military and put an end to the USA military supremacy across the world a long time ago.
And of course good intentions are no guarantee of good results, e.g. I believe Bush had good intentions with Iraq, he was just incompetent.
China is very smart to simply not get involved in much of anything. As soon as you do something, it gives people the opportunity to blame you, if even a single person thinks the result is even a little bit less than perfect.
Switzerland is the smartest.
Our relationship with Europe is not very important for American prosperity. The GDP growth trend is the same before and after NATO was founded: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/GDP_per_...
Like the US benefit from NATO, "soft power" always remains a sort of esoteric wisdom which is mysteriously beyond the grasp of the average American. I've spent tens or even hundreds of hours arguing online with Europeans. They've never given a compelling explanation of how US "soft power" is supposed to work in a democratic country when the majority of the population dislikes the US. They just stick their nose in the air and say "too bad you're an ignorant American, if you were European like us, you would understand". Europeans think Americans are suckers, in other words.
It's very ironic to me that Europeans say that Americans are purely self-interested, but when it comes to actually convincing to us, they are barely ever able to muster any sort of compelling appeal to our self-interest. (They don't just want us to defend them; they also want us to make the argument that it is in our national interest to defend them! It's rather astonishing.) At the end of the day, "Americans only care about their self-interest" is just another "America Bad" rhetorical point, as is proven by the actions of Europeans.
If you want us to be benevolent to you, give us credit for being a benevolent actor in your region. If you truly believe we are self-interested, appeal effectively to our self-interest, and respect our decision if we conclude that your appeal is unpersuasive or the juice isn't worth the squeeze. But don't constantly talk about how we are evil and self-interested, and then de facto expect us to help you on the basis of altruism. That's what you've been doing for years now. At this point we are burnt out. "The beatings will continue until morale improves."
Take a step back to reflect on what you're writing here, done earnestly it may resolve your frustrations. It's easy to not notice the world revolving around you and just take it for granted until it's not the case anymore.
"Don't be an obnoxious asshole to someone if you need their help" is just basic etiquette. Europeans seem constitutionally unable to grasp this point. Maybe it will help if you follow your own advice, and reflect on it for a bit.
(If you don't need our help, continue being a jerk of course. It will help me achieve my goal of getting the US to withdraw from NATO.)
I don't want the world to revolve around me. I'm completely tired of that. I want to be Switzerland. We stayed out of Europe's problems pre-WW1 and we can do it again just fine.
I probably won't reply to your further in this thread, because I expect any further comments from you will be additional fact-free condescension. (If you want me to reply I suggest you start by apologizing.)
Anyways, good luck with Russia.
The regulation also forced all merchants to accept Visa/MC without being able to surcharge a fee for it.
Both Companies are quite happy with that deal as it boasted the adoption for their cards across Europe
MasterCard or Visa also aren't operating as a charity in Europe.
Before the capping of fees was introduced, their acceptance was shit at most businesses, and most bank consumers also didn't have one, as opposed to cards of the national scheme which had lower fees both for customers and merchants
Then it comes out that MasterCard/Visa fees in Europe are actually far lower than in the US.
Now the Europeans are laughing at the Americans for being suckers.
This interaction basically sums up the entire EU/US relationship and the absurdity of Europe's rhetoric around it. Copy/paste this template, change a few words, and it applies pretty much everywhere.
And we also look with horror because most of the bullshit in the US is coming to Europe with a 20 year delay
I need to worry about secret police in my state murdering randomly people. I have no time to think of Europe. Hence it is best to withdraw from NATO. Agreed?
Go look at what these people thought of us before Trump: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/11/views-of-the-u...
> Sweden: 47% had a favorable opinion of the US.; Germany: 49%; France: 46%; The Netherlands: 48%
And this was after the US committed over $120 billion in aid (all weapons and cash) to Ukraine, and, for some reason, allowed Sweden to join NATO--the same Sweden that pledged neutrality when Finland was invaded by the Soviets, who stole the Karelian Isthmus and other bits of its territory, and similarly did nothing when Norway and Denmark were invaded and occupied by Nazi Germany.
By May of last year (before the Greenland drama--I'm against that of course), more Europeans liked China better than the US. Maybe we should start shipping materials for weapons to Russia, like China does, to see if that improves our popularity with Europe.
"Soft power" is an absurd talking point. Doing nice things for Europe has brought us nothing but anger and contempt. Just scroll through this thread, there's plenty of proof. They are a very entitled and condescending people.
Last I checked, Trump was elected in 2016.
In 2021 he tried an autogolpe and by the time this survey was done in 2024, he was not in prison for treason but instead again running for president as nominee of one of only two major parties. What sort of opinion should one have of such a country?
> allowed Sweden to join NATO
What sort of absurd argument is this? Now that Sweden changed their mind and want to enter treaty obligations to help defend e.g. the Baltics, we should refuse them?
Also, I can't begin to comprehend how Sweden would militarily defend Finland, who entered WW2 as an ally of Nazi Germany after being invaded by USSR, and simultaneously fight against Nazi Germany.
There are regulations. Both Visa and Mastercard were happy with those and made quite a lot of money from their business in the EU. They absorbed and merged with local alternatives and competitors. It’s a bit rich to complain after the game has been going on for a while that the rules are as they are: they’ve always been that way and if they were not happy, they could just have ignored the European markets. Now, if your point is that you’re being shafted, then congratulations: realising is the first step towards solving. Now, vote for a government that will actually regulate the sector in the people’s favour, not the big corps. We cannot help you for that.
I am pointing out the absurdity of the original European claim that such fees are "protection money" to the US, when the EU is getting a sweetheart deal relative to the US. It's typical disingenuous European rhetoric.
I know it's difficult for you to comprehend, but Governments are supposed to act in the interest of the general population of their country, not for companies and the 1%.
And that includes making sure that markets are working and regulating (near) monopolies
When American customers pay European firms, it's just capitalism, sorry bro.
You’d have a point if you had examples of European pharma companies cutting off supply to American entities for political reasons. You don’t, so you don’t have a point.
If US firm profits in Europe are "protection money" then EU firm profits in the US should also be added to the ledger.
Hell, the EMV standard — used in all cards worldwide — means "Europay, Mastercard, Visa".
Look after your toys better.
Lesson learned, at least for me. I am in the process of moving everything digital to Europe.
We're done with Europeans treating us as suckers. Doing nice things for Europe leads to nothing but contempt from Europeans.
The system is packed with opaque middlemen such as pharmacy benefit managers, many of which are making big rents
American Politicians are really famous worldwide for being selfless, defending other nations interests to the detriment of their own nation
Especially the Republican ones, which have blocked and still trying to block all efforts to bring drug prices down by negotiation.
They are known for being very caring people. Especially for the poor and disadvantaged
Same way the defense companies probably said something like "it is good to deter Russia so that Europe can remain free and democratic".
Hilarious, isn't it?
Anyways shouldn't you get back to work so you can afford all the new weapons you're going to have to buy?
"American Politicians are really famous worldwide for being selfless, defending other nations interests to the detriment of their own nation." Well yes, we did that for you guys for 80 years after WW2, a very peaceful and prosperous period for Europe by historical standards. We got nothing but hate and laughter for it. Now we're done.
You're either very stupid believing that the American Engagement in Europe was just charity or just a very good troll.
I guess Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran (pre-Mullahs) and other countries that were gifted with democracy were also other selfless endeavours by the Americans.
Europeans always imply that NATO is some sort of vast American conspiracy. But they are hardly ever able to give compelling examples of American benefit. The US benefit from NATO always remains a sort of esoteric wisdom which is mysteriously beyond the grasp of the average American. I suppose if we were more educated on European geography trivia, like you guys, that might help us understand why the US needs NATO so badly.
"Vietnam"
Yes, that was seen as analogous to another very recent war in Korea. If it wasn't for us, the state known as "North Korea" would cover the entire peninsula.
"Iraq"
One of the worst dictators in history, that Saddam Hussein. Europeans laughed at us for our opposition to him. It's why we now have little interest in opposing Putin, who is a herbivore by comparison.
"Afghanistan"
Depending on who you ask, we are either imperialists for displacing the Taliban, or complicit for allowing them to displace us right back. Typical double-bind.
"Iran"
You mean the country which is at this very moment crying out for American intervention, asking the Americans to protect protesters? It's fascinating to me how certain Europeans can simultaneously beg the US for protection, and also assume that the US must be up to no good in other countries where the US gets begged for protection.
Hopefully you can see why I support Massie's bill to withdraw the US from NATO at this point. I'm tired of it all. I want a Swiss foreign policy for the US. Do you also support Massie's bill? Maybe that's something we can agree on.
Also your reasons to invade Iraq were made up Lies about Weapons of Mass destruction, and the US propped up the Taliban against the Soviets in the first place.
Both were quite liberal states compared to today, after they were blessed with US intervention
I think your narratives are oversimplified or inaccurate, but ultimately it doesn't matter.
The important point is: Since US intervention is so bad, according to you, can you understand why I want to withdraw from NATO? Can we at least agree on that? Don't you want to save your continent from the evil US intervention such as all the billions we've sent as support to Ukraine?
See why I want out of NATO? The Swiss stay perfectly neutral, they never had a 9/11, everyone loves them. No one blames them for the situation in Ukraine (they contribute little) or anything else. That's what the US was like pre-WW1 with regard to Europe. I want to go back.
Have you thanked the French for getting involved in US wars?
And when you say "we", does that include yourself?
>And when you say "we", does that include yourself?
Yes, in the sense that me and my ancestors have been paying taxes to support a military which was supposed to be able to win against the USSR. That money should have stayed in the United States for peaceful purposes. Euros should've defended themselves. If the USSR took over the entire continent that's not our problem. We have to focus on our own problems instead of playing world police.
You can't both demonize the US for its every foreign policy move, and also demand the US protect you. That makes zero sense. You can't both trash the US for its every supposed problem, and also demand that the US pay more attention to Europe's problems. That also makes zero sense. There's nothing coherent in the European ideology beyond just "America Bad". Fine, we'll take our toys and go home. I sure hope it makes you happy.
They have to put an absurd sticker price on the drugs so that the "Pharmacy Benefit Manager" (an useless middlemen that only exists in US Healthcare) can "negotiate" a "discount" on behalf of your insurance (aka the real price), for which he takes a cut based on how big the "discount" is
For the EU, Visa and Mastercard dependence form a duopoly controlled by a hostile foreign power. An alternative is essential.
Wero is coming and it should work across Europe
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29627097
What's insightful to me is how fast the list of alternatives are growing.
The list is much better now than 2021 and we still have a long way to go.
Also Constantin Graf needs to add a new Category: "LLM Clients" or "AI Tooling"
What we should work towards, though, is interoperability and open source solutions.
It is not "nationalistic" to prefer things that are made in Europe. Europe is not a nation and very few people feel anything close to national pride about it. I like that we have European alternatives instead of German, French, Swedish, etc, alternatives.
It's not even that. We euros were more than willing to look the other way (see the umpteen attempts to reconcile our privacy-friendly legislation with the free-for-all of American services, ongoing for decades) in the name of convenience and fundamentally shared values. The turning point was really in 2024/2025, when those shared values were summarily swept away on the other side of the Atlantic.
Besides, the "global alternatives not subjected to power-hungry overlords" are actually very much subjected to the worst of humanity, and wide open to exploitation from such overlords.
This is, in fact, what "overlord" means!
As long as they're actual alternatives of course, rather than just another monopoly but at a smaller scale.
While I agree with your sentiment, European and nationalistic are two contradicting positions, unlike the other three mentioned superpowers.
I mean sure, your example shows that the virtue of being "European" represents a certain demographic and a sovereign territory. Again, it's a continent, so what?
Europe is many things, but probably a poor base to push any nationalistic aspiration.
Right, it they do not. You’d have to stretch the definition of nation beyond its breaking point for Europe to be a nation. It would include Russia and Ukraine, Finland and Greece, none of these nations have much in common.
Open source is the global alternative you're looking for. There's even interesting hardware options like https://starlabs.systems/
The US also has had an unfair advantage in tech/defense and finance because it hosted the global hubs of the free world. This attracted eye-watering amounts of money to places like SF and NY. With this newfound isolationism, tariffs etc. reducing the viability of hosting the global hubs, there's massive opportunities opening in europe and elsewhere.
But that's not what's happening. It's a clear and obvious security risk to their sovereignty. If the government can't guarantee that to its citizens then what even is its purpose? The Trump admin has already tried to use American tech dominance as leverage.
Ask yourself this question, what if there was a foreign tech competitor that managed to scale up to be basically a better cheaper AWS. Would the US government ever allow it to encroach its market to the point that AWS or Azure did in Europe? Look at what happened to tiktok if you want to see what approach they'd likely take.
So how exactly would you envision an objective and neutral provider in a world of geopolitical competition?
We should not; we must. But at the same time we need to recognise that we are powerless to affect the American government, which can go rogue at any moment. So from a pure risk analysis, we also need to have local alternatives. I regret this state of affairs, but it is an unavoidable consequence of the US threatening its nominal allies.
ps: congrats on your success
I haven't found anything public about where its hosted
or:
whois "$(ping -c 1 techposts.eu | awk -F'[()]' '/PING/{print $2}')"
You would be shocked at how well certain nationalities like the Dutch and Swedes speak English.
Totally. All Northern countries to be fair. And then in my experience at least some Eastern countries (like Slovenia).
Really it seems like the South of Europe is a bit weaker in English, my guess being that their native languages are latin and not germanic (so it's further away from English).
The bigger countries do dubbing and it is really noticeable.
Also in Holland we'd pride ourselves on speaking foreign languages much more than being proud of our own.
Being able to string together a couple of sentences is not "being fluent." By that standard, all of America would be fluent in Spanish.
I did hit a funny situation in rural France once where I was talking to a French restaurateur through one person who spoke French and Spanish, and then a second person who spoke Spanish and English. It was convoluted, but it worked enough to get me a meal. Alternatively, when I was in rural Spain, near the French border, a French speaking lady desperately tried to get me to help translate for her since she didn't speak Spanish and the merchant she wanted to talk to didn't speak French. Unfortunately, neither of them spoke English. The best I could do was communicate to the merchant in my broken Spanish that I couldn't help.
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to me, I get it, and it's easier to refer to Europe as "the other" rather than having to use a longer phrase to describe traveling from the British isles to the mainland of continental Europe.
But still, it amuses me.
You're confusing Europe and the EU
You're forgetting about Ireland and Malta
You're thinking that because the UK left the EU it will change the main language countries use to speak to each others
In both countries English is only one of the official languages.
:P
Yes, and that's precisely the irony. Europeans still need to subject themselves to Anglo "cultural imperialism" or absolutely nothing works, starting with communication across national borders.
Do you have a single clue about Europe? That's not true at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_English
Besides that, besides my native language and English, I had German and French in school (which are required topics in our country). So I can speak the native language of all nearby countries.
Auf Wiedersehen!
In short, it's just like Chinglish.
Your average educated European speaks at least three, one of which is English because it is a good language to have because it is the language of international commerce. This has been the case since many decades and has nothing to do with using the language internally.
But: many people do use it internally. French tourists abroad are more likely to use English than French. European colleagues usually standardize on English, both for their communications as well as for their documentation needs.
Scientific literature is predominantly in English (at least, for now).
So there are many reasons to use English which have nothing to do with allegiance or dependence.
ok ok I get the point but let's not exaggerate
But I think two languages is probably not exagerating. And not only in Europe. People have their native language and usually an international one (in Europe that would be English).
And then there are similar languages. Say a Spanish person will speak Spanish and English, and possibly French/Italian/Portuguese, so that quickly goes up to 3. Also in many countries there are already multiple languages (a portion of Spain speaks Catalan and Spanish as native languages, then probably English as international language, and they are probably not bad in French/Italian because of the similarity).
Same in the northern country that are all germanic languages: Swedish is pretty similar to Norwegian for instance, both are not too far to German, and everybody there speaks English fluently.
And then if you go in the Eastern Europe... like in Slovenia people seem to all speak 5 languages, it's insane :-).
However, I'd agree with that the average educated person can somewhat communicate ideas in a second language. This is what polls usually show, around 30% to 50% of people.
Have you tried any Scandinavian country for instance?
The two Americans, not knowing a fraction of German, stared blankly at the driver. “Sorry, but we have no idea what you are saying.”
The driver tried again in French and again was met with blank stares and shakes of the head from the two tourists.
Getting frustrated, he tried again in Italian, in Spanish, each time receiving nothing but sheepish smiles from the two of them. Finally, he cursed under his breath and drove away angrily.
The first American asked his partner:” Maybe we should learn a second language.” His partner shrugged and replied:” Why? That dude knew four languages and it didn’t help him.”
- Operating systems, for various kinds of workloads
- Programming language toolchains
- Hardware vendors
Hardware vendors is a different issue
Example, Java, .NET, Go and co are FOSS, how long do you think they will keep on going without their overlords?
For complete alternatives we need to go back to the cold war days, where programming languages were driven by vendor neutral standards, and there were several to buy from.
As it is, it suffices to take the air out of existing FOSS options.
Even if you quickly point out to GCC and clang, one reason why they have dropped implementation velocity from existing ISO revisions is due to a few well known big corps focusing on their own offerings, while other vendors seldom upstream stuff as they focus on clang.
EDIT: As I missed this on the first comment, same applies to the big FOSS OS projects, most contributions to the major Linux distros, or the BSDs come from non European companies, there is naturally something like SuSE, but then we get into the whole who is allowed to contribute, security, backdoors and related stuff.
On programming languages it is a concern how popular .net and Java are in Europe. However being stuck on the current state of Python is less of a worry. I feel like I was always 10 years behind on needing new features.
There's C++ if you want something that has an international standard.
Hardware you can buy from China. Distant, predictable authoritarianism that doesn't make annoying social media posts is sadly preferable to .. whatever is going on over there.
Java is FOSS by the way, however it is also a good example, its runtime capabilities isn't the product of long nights and weekends.
We can worry about feature growth later, if at all. It may be age finally changing my preferences, but so much of what I've seen sold as "new" in tech in recent years has been either worse than what I already had or a reinvention of something that already existed. Like, contactless payments were already a thing before they were available in phones, and social media didn't start with FB and twitter, and Apple's API updates in the last few years feel like as much of a downgrade to me as their icons seem to be to UI blogs.
What was the problem between Android and Java then? Wasn't there some dispute between Google and Oracle on that? Genuinely interested.
Sun did not sue, because they were out money already, and Oracle used the argument they were using Apache clone implementation of Java, with copyrighted headers.
To this day you cannot pick a random Java library and have it run on Android.
Even after having won, they refuse to implement full compatibility.
Because of the licence or because it won't work? Sounds like the latter, but I have never seen a Java library that unexpectedly did not run on Android.
To the extent that my employer blocks Oracle dot com at the outbound firewall to stop anyone accidentally incurring license costs. You don't want to deal with Oracle license enforcement.
Oracle cannot be blamed people are unable to understand the difference between OpenJDK and Oracle Java installers.
OpenJDK also happens to be developed mainly by Oracle employees, circa 80% of contributions.
Programming language toolchains? You must be very NPM-brained, stuff like C and C++ is generally quite decentralized with OSes taking care of packaging. There's also plenty of languages that originated in Europe.
Hardware vendors? There's a few. Most hardware vendors in general are Asian though.
Some projects, especially high profile ones, do have US companies behind them (e.g. Google, etc) so you could claim they are US-centric, but at this point it becomes a question of why you are looking for an EU alternative. If it is to help EU businesses (like others mentioned), then unless you financially support these US companies (either directly or indirectly via, e.g., your data) it doesn't matter if the FLOSS project you are using is made by them or not.
The way things are going it becomes a national security issue where those PR are coming from.
And TBH IMO such projects should be avoided in the first place regardless of what US is doing because they tend to use FLOSS as a marketing method than for practical development. Choosing projects which have multiple shareholders, so to speak, is much healthier in the long term.
I think recently it has been made obvious by the US that relying on US technology is a risk, because it can be used to bully entire countries.
So I think there is a movement right now of "non-US alternatives", but of course if you are in the EU and got burned by relying too much on the US, maybe it is wise to try to fix that by having some kind of digital sovereignty in the EU.
But I'm pretty sure many companies would switch to a Canada-based product if it allowed them to reduce their dependency on the US.
I agree that OS is missing but OS for any workload that is not "desktop computer" or "laptop computer" in the EU, and anywhere in the world, is already dominated by Linux. Phones, routers, Internet of Things, servers, supercomputers, smartwatches, satelittes,... Whatever really. It's all Linux.
Also, Qubes OS exists.
The alternative that's looking best to me so far is Kolab Now. I don't see a lot of user reviews of it on Reddit though, or anywhere else, so it seems to not be very popular at first sight. That's perhaps not a good sign.
In any case I'm planning on trying it out for a while, with a domain I don't use it all that often, before deciding to migrate to it.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Public_Licence
Also, the GPL is not as short and has more explicit wording for how it behaves in common situations (like the P2P copying stuff, for example), and it allows certain additional restrictions and exceptions (like what the LGPL is). It's just more well thought-out in my opinion.
Edit: Reading it again, I also just remembered that the EUPL's warranty disclaimer is a lot weaker than usual licenses, and weirdly also asserts the program is a “work in progress”.
Can you elaborate on that?
My understanding is that EUPL is a bit like MPLv2 or LGPL in the spirit. Like it protects the project itself, but doesn't go viral like the GPL.
However, the compatibility clause allows relicensing to other licenses that are explicitly weaker in their copyleft, which is what I meant with the quoted sentence.
Another comment just made me aware though that apparently, copyleft extending to other programs linking with the work is just not a thing in the EU? I'll have to read more into the details of that.
Keep in mind that within EU the GPL's copyleft is as strong as EUPL's or LGPL while at the same time EUPL takes into account network access like AGPL. In practice though, software is distributed outside of the EU and while GPL relies on local laws to "maximize" its copyleftness, EUPL specifically refers to either the EU country of the developer or Belgium if the developers from outside the EU, where the laws do not distinguish between static or dynamic linking (check "More details on the case of linking" from [0] about license compatibility). Also FWIW while FSF suggests that "license hopping" (i.e. changing to some compatible licenses from EUPL to something else) weakens the copyleft, a European Commision lawyer who worked on EUPL has commented doing so would be copyright infringement because the purpose of the compatibility list in EUPL is for interoperability (so that multiple projects with different licenses can coexist) and the purpose would matter in court.
Though in practice since software is often distributed outside of EU, e.g. to US where (it seems) such distinction does exist, people do respect (L)GPL's dynamic vs static linking requirements and from a worldwide perspective EUPL is something like LGPL with a dash of AGPL (making some program functionality available even remotely is considered as distribution). Or in other words, EUPL is basically AGPL within the limitations of EU law.
[0] https://interoperable-europe.ec.europa.eu/collection/eupl/li...
There are some things that are difficult to avoid, like CPUs and GPUs, but software is much more doable.
> But is there a tangible risk vector to European consumers of open source, commercial American software.
Yes. If you're a European sanctioned by the US, it's illegal for American companies to provide you service. That means no Amazon, PayPal, Expedia, Visa, etc.
See this case of a French judge from 2025:
https://nordictimes.com/world/how-french-icc-judge-faces-us-...
I can appreciate some don't care about their data especially in this world of people pouring their lives in to social media but some people do care.
----
Nicolas Guillou, a French judge at the International Criminal Court, discusses in an interview with Le Monde the consequences of US sanctions imposed on him and eight other judges and prosecutors at the court. The sanctions were introduced after the court issued an arrest warrant for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
The concrete consequences of the sanctions extend far beyond a travel ban to the US. "The sanctions affect all aspects of my daily life. They prohibit all US individuals or legal entities, all persons or companies, including their foreign subsidiaries, from providing me with services", Guillou explains.
All his accounts with US companies such as Amazon, Airbnb, PayPal, and others have been closed. "For example, I booked a hotel in France through Expedia, and a few hours later, the company sent an email canceling the reservation citing the sanctions. In practice, you can no longer shop online because you don't know if the packaging your product comes in is American. Being under sanctions is like being sent back to the 1990s", he says.
"Overnight, you find yourself without a bank card, and these companies have an almost complete monopoly, at least in Europe. US companies are actively involved in intimidating sanctioned individuals – in this case, the judges and prosecutors who administer justice in contemporary armed conflicts", he notes.
He emphasizes that sanctions can last for more than a decade or even longer.
https://nordictimes.com/world/how-french-icc-judge-faces-us-...
That’s really not a good comparison. Many of the listed services and companies have been well established for a long time, in some cases for decades, and aren’t small businesses.
The EU is now going to start pumping money in to building European alternatives. EU software dev salaries are going to increase. All 27 states agreed to establish the saving and investments union.
Nothing will happen overnight but you'll see this start to play out over the next 5 years. It will take decades to catch up but we are starting.
I'm sure that with a bit of protectionism, we would build our tech as well as anybody else.
So how long will the culture last?
Also working for companies located in Ireland[0] or Switzerland you can have your US salary, it's just that the pool of jobs is limited.
[0] Provided it's a company in the first of Ireland's two economies.
See, Google Zurich vs Seattle
https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater...
https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater...
Hm, after carefully reviewing the entries seem more or less the same, Zurich slightly lower.
Which should not be an issue, if as I read a lot in this page, "all good European engineers move to the US". It means that you only have to compete against the "bad ones" that stayed back, right? /s
I just left Seattle Greater Area and my 350sqm admittedly old house + a small ADU with an outdoor pool went for $2M (at the moment it was a downturn, so maybe $2.5M tops now). What can you get for that money in Greater Zurich Area? A 100sqm flat?
Also, most mortgages in Switzerland are very peculiar: you pay 20% down, but then you don't ever pay off the principal, only interest on the remaining 80% which is owned in perpetuity by the bank. The interest rates are kept very low and the currency quite stable, because most of the citizens rely on it. So your monthly interest could be 400-500 CHF, and you invest the rest however you prefer.
much larger, much closer to everything, almost an acre of land
The rail network in and around Zurich is reliable and punctual, so you can live anywhere along that 30km long lake and still have your commute be 30-40m, without needing to search for a parking spot and whatnot.
I experienced this myself when I was briefly commutung from Pfäffikon(SZ).
I hear that argument a lot, and honestly it sounds uninformed and downright disrespectful. Some kind of "I am a US developer, we US developers are the best, and the few good European engineers come here. The remaining ones in Europe are dumb".
Not to mention that I have talked to quite a few European engineers who could earn a lot more by moving to the US, but just really don't want to live in the US. Maybe there is a reason for that?
This whole thing just seems like the standard hysterical overreaction of people who spend too much time on social media.
European military. Why do some people act as if European countries had no armies?
And even if we had no armies and Russia attacked and totally destroyed us, how is it related to the topic discussed here, which is whether the influx of European engineers to the US will continue or not?
> This whole thing just seems like the standard hysterical overreaction of people who spend too much time on social media.
Perhaps. I don't think it is, but let's say you are right. How is that relevant? People do not want to go to a country they perceive negatively. Whether that perception is an objective fact or hysteria is, in this context, immaterial.
What would happen is that Russia invades Poland, or Russia invades Romania or Bulgaria or something. Those are Eastern European countries. (I mean they all used to be Soviet bloc anyway.) Or Russia would invade Germany like the good ol' days. So whatever nation they invaded would sic their own armed forces on them, and their allies' too. NATO could jump into the fray.
Americans (and perhaps Russians too) often misunderstand how terribly small European nations are, really. They're mostly smaller than individual United States. So, less population, less time to transport stuff, fewer natural resources available in a sovereign context, etc. But lots of national borders.
So Russia won't invade "Europe" but they could go into one or more nations on the list.
I think culture and quality of life not withstanding, the raw numbers simply don't favor the EU becoming a tech leader with the current incentives.
But maybe culture and quality of life should not be ignored :-).
Quality of life is also a cultural thing. I know it's hard to understand for US people (I truly believe it is the case for cultural reasons), but many people really don't want the lifestyle of the US for all sorts of reasons. For some people, quality of life means easy access to healthy food, or to nature, seeing trees instead of giant concrete parking lots or 6-lanes highways, etc.
I can tell you (I live here) -- there are none. SF is one of the most beautiful cities on Earth, and I'm trying my hardest to visit as many cities on earth as possible.
I'm a freelance, and I take fun jobs, not jobs that pay well.
Americans compare their salaries to European ones but never stop to imagine the insane high “taxes” they pay for stuff that we get cheaply or for free.
I'm not even saying the one is better than the other. There's a lot to be said for the American system of only paying for what you need. It's just.. you can't just compare dollars/euros like that. There's reddit posts of people who earn $900k/y and openly wonder whether that's enough to live in NYC and that shit is equally unfathomable to the average European as the idea of a dev earning €70k/y is to the average American.
For healthcare if you get an IT salary you can either move to private insurance, or buy additional insurance, or just pay a consultation yourself for a fee that US people won’t believe.
the system is breaking down in front of our very eyes.
i am not living in Germany. i moved to fthe NL, but the situation is very similiar.
How does that compare to the public transport situation in the US?
All of this was just on normal health insurance and with normal clinics and hospitals.
Never did she have to wait more than perhaps 3 weeks tops for an appointment.
The medical system here is world class.
However Germany and it's infrastructure can not be compared to the Netherlands. I refuse to take trains through that country anymore.
In which country are the trains bad? Netherlands or Germany? Do you care elaborating why? is that punctuality? strikes? decaying infrastructure?
I was talking about Germany's infrastructure. Last year I had 3x separate trips turn into chaos due to how broken their system is. Broken trains, broken track infrastructure etc. Think multiple hours on each trip rather than just 10 minutes delay.
The Ditch system is very reliable in contrast.
Same in France, it can take a while to get an appointment to see some specialists nowadays. There's a clear decline there.
But if you have something bad, they'll treat you in time. Actually, a relative of mine has been diagnosed with cancer a not long ago. She got several surgeries and all the treatments with no wait, and at not cost.
There's no reason why it shouldn't be sustainable.
My father had to go though multiple appointments and analysis to get his prostate and hernia checked. Never waited more than a week and paid 0 in total. Before, he'd probably only have to wait a couple days for appointments, but the stress the healthcare system is currently undergoing is abnormal due to the more aggressive cases of flue this season. All things considering, things are not "breaking down" (I'm even getting some second hand embarrassment reading those words).
As long as housing is extremely expensive in Europe, nothing else matters except for higher salaries.
That isn't true unless you're looking to rent a luxury apartment in a big city.
Like Spain's commuter trains?
After that I bet some people would actually pay to develop software to defang the American threat.
Having enough is what I care about and things are a lot cheaper here too. Not to mention free healthcare, social security. I don't need a car and a public transport pass is 25€ a month. That alone saves me so much money. The time till the next metro train counts down in seconds here.
When I had a car in the past it would cost me hundreds per month and it was such a headache.
I'd never move to the US even if I could make 3x as much. In fact I got an offer from a FAANG once (with the whole H1B managed by some agency I think) but I declined. I only applied because they advertised it as a local job but then when the offer came it was in California. Nope.
- I could not get out of my San Francisco Hotel to get to a deli across the road without having to step over at least 5 homeless people.
- I could not fail to notice that even those people who did have jobs and not lost their homes to tech bros had a surprisingly low number of healthy teeth for a modern western first-world society
- An apartment with noisy air conditioning, dirty carpets and questionable building codes would cost more in rent than a villa at the Côte d’Azur.
- The air quality during fire season was a nightmare. During my time there I developed asthma.
- Everybody hated the arrogant ignorant tech people that invaded their communities, forced them out of their houses to then have to commute into the city or valley to serve tech bros. Yes, as a European I am not that well trained to constantly ignore that my privilege are causing the community around me to suffer. That I do not "earn" this gigantic salary, I am just grabbing the resources pretending the "normal" people don't deserve to have any of that.
You are getting paid so much because you in exchange are living in a sh*thole country without education, healthcare, public transport, clean air, or anything else that I as a "wealthy" developer person would expect to receive in exchange for my work.
Take your US salary, and invest it into a travel into some of the more up-to-date regions of the world. Those with clean air, education, healthcare. Places I have visited that are better than the Valley in this regard include:
- Pretty much all of Europe. Maybe with the exception of Greece and Spain, when they are now burning thanks to the "drill drill drill" people. - China - Iran - New Zealand - Australia - Canada ...
Yes, the amount of zeros on your US salary might look soooooooooooooooo impressive. But they are zeros. They don't buy you a livable live in a modern civilization.
Right now you are just bribed with money not to see the civil war getting ignited in minnesota.
Oh oh oh, now I remember! I have even been to two countries with civil wars a while ago, who had clean air, education and healthcare. And I think even directly after the civil war, all of Kosovo had a lower percentage of homeless people than the US has today.
Yes, another one of my drastic postings. But you will survive. Be brave: With someone who clearly is being paid a lot for being clever, I can assume that you think this through again, to calculate what the better deal is. You know the average amount of student debt people who want to become programmers have? Zero.
You are not getting more VALUE out of working in the US in high-tech compared to other places. There are places on this world, where being a good programmer buys you a wonderful life with nobody around you being poor, or without healthcare, or homeless. Try Estonia. They have a lovely tech community, a fully digital government. You can become a digital citizen, open your own company in minutes. And you will have a far better life.
It's just crazy. I went to the Estonian embassy in Berlin, was offered coffee, and 20 minutes later I had my digital card allowing me to create a limited company.
I had offers from companies across the pond, and likely could make about 2x-3x what I make here.
What for? I live a comfortable life here.
Please explain your working. These last 40 years or more there has been a cliff of money, but Europeans continue to live and work in europe.
You have to have an incredibly narrow definition of "only good people work for more money and only poor/ineffective people work for less" to say people who don't chase the millions in a US company are somehow failures.
Biggest problem has been talent going to US.
This problem is rapidly being solved by the US government.
The startup I work for was planning to raise next round in the US. This will not happen as the CEO refuses to travel to the US.
It’s the best time to build in the EU or UK there has ever been. I don’t expect America to pull out of this nose dive. The future of western software is in europe now, and globally I expect China to be the lead beginning with AI.
As much as you may detest all the other great powers jostling for position with seemingly cursory attention paid to moral considerations, making your core identity the cultured "nice guy" is likely a trap. I'd love to see the resurgence of a strong Europe. I think this will require some introspection and more action than simply boycotting Google and Amazon.
I tried to create a category here if it is useful for others as well: https://european-alternatives.eu/admin/category-votes/3daefd...
Oh, and here's the product page: https://val.build
GitHub is here: https://github.com/valbuild/val
Interesting to know before going in: - They encrypt the emails when storing them, so the only way to access emails is to use their own apps. I was hesitant at first but their web app, desktop app and android app are great
The good news: there are plenty of EU-based ISO 27001 audit firms. We can recommend one or two if you need a pointer — we just don't have a formal catalogue or marketplace for that yet (though it's on my list).
So you'd use Humadroid for the preparation - policies, controls, evidence, risks, continuity plans, ISMS workbook - and then bring in an independent auditor for certification.
"European alternative" that doesn't know that European addresses have non-ASCII characters: https://x.com/dmitriid/status/1835649083345649780
It's something they should fix and if they did would you suddenly switch to Scaleway? I think you would consider other factors first.
A good critique for example is OVH lost a lot of customer data due to a fire. Where was the redundancy? That would make me think twice before switching to OVH.
You know why I have this screenshot? Because I literally tried to switch to "great European alternative" that is "as slick as DO".
After a third or a fourth screen, most of which felt completely isolated and disconnected from any previous ones, I gave up on the screen that couldn't handle a standard European address.
This was literally the point that I gave up.
So I went ahead... and signed up with Hetzner.
Edit
So I decided to try again. Literally the first page of account sign in tried to trick you into accepting tracking
Since I apparently had an account, I could login... So redirected to a subdomain with the same cookie popup. On a site that is solely for billing address collection
which then redirects you to a third domain with the a similar but different popup.
Which ends up on an empty page indistinguishable in "usability" from Hetzner (or worse)
That's the end of my experience of my "European DO that is Scaleway".
They did fix the addresss boxes, kudos to them
I lost a VPS in that fire, but I was up and running a few hours later with a new VPS at a different OVH location.
Not to deflect blame away from OVH and their large screw up, but we should never rely only on the redundancy of the hosting provider. Even on AWS, I wouldn't trust them to not lose my data if one of their datacenters burns down.
At the time I was making regular backups to two different providers with servers somewhere else. When I noticed that it was serious, I ordered a new VPS and restored everything. If OVH itself went down, I could have used Scaleway, Hetzner, Contabo, etc.
In NL I remember Bol was quite good.
Beyond that it gets fragmented into companies serving only a few markets. Alza, Cool Blue, and Media Markt are some that come to my mind.
We should be divesting from unethical businesses, not from american ones.
Nationalism can be so seductive but if you engage in it you're being pulled down to "their" level.
Instead, consider your true "country" is the set of good people, no matter where they live. Keep spending your money on ethical american businesses, and european ones, and russian and chinese ones, if you can find them. Stop spending your money on unethical businesses, even if they're local.
> The company is based in an EU, EEA, EFTA, or DCFTA member country or in the UK.
but
> For hosting providers: It is not allowed that a hosting provider is simply a sub-hosting provider of a company that is not based in an EU or EFTA member country.
It's all clarified here. If you think it's missing some great companies add them!
I would have expected an OS, an Office platform.
Eg go into a big store brand in most of the US and the cashier will be all flashy smile asking how is your day, and you ignore it and ask your request, and that's the game. A french person would mostly hate that, feel the question as annoying.
You go to a similar french store and the cashier and yourself will say the bonjour / merci / ... yada yada game and if someone doesn't do his part he's considered rude; I found a lot of foreigner surprised by that, the fact that you're not answering "merci" or asking "s'il vous plait" because it's nice, but because not doing it puts you in unpleasant person territory.
Ok business meeting, even in tech. American are always super optimist and happy, and seeing a solution and the end goal, French are over realist bordering on pessimist.
It's not that black and white of course there is a lot of inter mingling and differences, but overall which one you feel "better" is very personnal and based around what you're used to.
to add my 2 cents: why does anyone think the EU countries don’t or won’t pose the same risks as the US? They might just be doing it silently and illegally. Where is the guarantee that the mere fact a service is EU-based provides benefits over using US-based ones?
It's the exact same, and it doesn't take much wisdom to understand.
proofs, please?
> who would never dream of posting the same comment if it was about the US reducing their dependency on Chinese tech
it’s just your assumption. I personally don’t know anyone from the states who would want this except their government
> Imagine a post on that topic - there have been many when it was higher on the agenda - and droves of Europeans commenting "Gee, how strange that the US wants to do this"
again, it’s the government who fights the dependency on China, not the regular people. You are confusing politics and normal people’s concerns
I think there is some sort of Darwinistic reason for this. Maybe its inevitable.
Not to say that the US didn't help spur this, but its just sad to see.
When I was younger, I was such an idealist. Anarchy, open borders, free market open trade, pacifism.
Even as Trump started getting aggressive, I kept trying to tell myself: "Well, these other countries surly know that most of the population doesn't support this. Surely they know we are fans of liberalism, democracy, and human rights. One bad election, everyone knows it was influenced by Russia, no big deal. They know a sane person will be elected in a few years."
But I saw the comments of how quickly it seemed the general population of other nations flipped like a dime.
It has shooken me. (And I don't blame that its shooken them)
It has made me the exact person I was against. Now I think we really do need to look toward the national interest. If 1 bad politician can alienate us from 100+ years of debatably good behavior, why shouldn't we be selfish?
Sir, please read up on Wikipedia what the EU is. What Europe is. Also, this is a very mild response to a "American first" new world order.
Pedantic. My state didn't vote for the US president, yet you are looking to buy from a different state now.
Wales can no more disavow the PM than California can disavow POTUS. So this separate status is limited.
The big counter to this is the idea that US states have their own militaries. States may have militias, but they can be subsumed by the federal government pretty easily, as we saw in California in 2025. They are not truly independent armed forces.
OTOH, states are not allowed to leave the US, we had a war about this a while ago. Meanwhile Scotland had a referendum on leaving the UK a few years ago.
Love it or hate it, we are Americans first before we are New Yorkers or Mississipians and so forth. This is especially true when it comes to international relations; that's handled on a federal level and most people in the world couldn't tell a Nebraskan from an Alaskan.
You're at 2 out of 3, while Biden was mid at best and your senate has been horrendous for a very long time.
People around the world distancing themselves from these actions is hardly nationalism.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
1 bad politician elected by a fraction of the population is enough to turn the world against us. Why bother with such altruism when a single election can turn everyone against us?
If you think the US' "altruism" should buy us goodwill, then you're not for altruism, you're for good PR.
It's also important to understand that those on the receiving end of the threats are not taking them lightly. No one's laughing. It's easy to understand the change in behaviour if you understand this.
Back to the European Alternatives stuff, I've been looking at the services I use and which ones might become unavailable if, let's say, the US takes Greenland. It has nothing to do with nationalism, I just don't want to be caught with my pants down.
I get your pain but are you expecting other countries just to take hit?
Should EU lift sanctions with Russia as well? You know "1 bad politician elected by a fraction of the population".
There are racist European nationalists - the Anders Breivik type.
This website is not either. However I think its worth looking beyond Europe. Avoiding the US and China and a few other countries leaves a lot of possibilities.
A huge proportion of your electorate is actually not only fine with the current direction, but actively cheer on this.
> One bad election, everyone knows it was influenced by Russia, no big deal. They know a sane person will be elected in a few years."
This sounds a lot worse than you imagine. We will be always one election away of anothe asshole that will want to leveraged the US relative strength to cause harm. Better to not keep strengthening it.
> 100+ years of debatably good behavior, why shouldn't we be selfish?
I almost choked at this.
The US has a long history of fucking over other countries.
The only thing that changed is that it just decided to be more direct about it, even with former allies.
I actually prefer it this way.
That’s a bit of a negative way to think about things. We’ve tried globalism, I don’t think it works. It’s utopian.
Small and distributed, this is the way. Not large and centralised. Stop over complicating things. If people just looked after themselves, their family, and their neighbours (in that order) the rest would figure itself out. This is how love works, it’s personal and intimate. I wish people would just stop trying to meddle with the world and let people be.
I hope you understand now that not even half of Democrats support these things, let alone most of the population, of any country in the world
It's been ten years of Trumpism. This wasn't a flip of a dime. The opinion flipped after we were threatened with annexation. These aren't jokes.
That's what we thought the first time. And it did happen, a sane person did get elected a few years later, but then another few years later Trump got elected again. And it's pretty clear that he and his crew are rapidly turning the USA into a fascist authoritarian hellhole, and they show all signs of not being willing to step back from power. It's a real tragedy both for USA's own people, especially the ones that Trump doesn't like, but also for people in other countries.
That has real consequences. Here is, with thanks to user malauxyeux for neatly summarizing, a case that should anyone start thinking real hard of the consequences of using American services:
Nicolas Guillou, a French judge at the International Criminal Court, discusses in an interview with Le Monde the consequences of US sanctions imposed on him and eight other judges and prosecutors at the court. The sanctions were introduced after the court issued an arrest warrant for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
The concrete consequences of the sanctions extend far beyond a travel ban to the US. "The sanctions affect all aspects of my daily life. They prohibit all US individuals or legal entities, all persons or companies, including their foreign subsidiaries, from providing me with services", Guillou explains.
All his accounts with US companies such as Amazon, Airbnb, PayPal, and others have been closed. "For example, I booked a hotel in France through Expedia, and a few hours later, the company sent an email canceling the reservation citing the sanctions. In practice, you can no longer shop online because you don't know if the packaging your product comes in is American. Being under sanctions is like being sent back to the 1990s", he says.
"Overnight, you find yourself without a bank card, and these companies have an almost complete monopoly, at least in Europe. US companies are actively involved in intimidating sanctioned individuals – in this case, the judges and prosecutors who administer justice in contemporary armed conflicts", he notes.
He emphasizes that sanctions can last for more than a decade or even longer.
https://nordictimes.com/world/how-french-icc-judge-faces-us-...
(link to malauxyeux's comment where I found this summary: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46738790)
The closer to a drop-in replacement the better. Tying all of these functional bits and pieces together to form a consistent whole is just not going to happen. You need to approach this on a per-company level.
So, who will step up to the plate and re-implement as much of Google as necessary to catch 80% of the functionality and their EU customers?
It's a double edged sword: it may help in some cases but it hurts the investment scene overall because an exit to the USA is what most EU investors dream about because their returns overall are pretty crappy. Fragmented markets are a lot harder for investors than uniform ones.
And just 2 seconds of thinking is enough to answer that question. Do you think China wouldn't have bought ASML yet if money alone was enough?
Everybody and their mother is using Gmail anyway
Though that's one of the easy ones. Get your own domain and you're free to use whatever you want forever.
That's usually what happens indeed. There is a lot of great tech coming from [the rest of the world] and being bought by the US.
> the cost-to-switch is more important right now than the details
I kinda disagree there. The lack of competition is the problem today. If, instead of AWS, there were 50 services all over the world and companies were distributed amongst them, then it would be much less of a problem. The problem right now is that the US can bully entire countries because those countries 100% rely on US services.
Instead of building a European replacement for AWS, I would like to see open standards allowing companies to easily switch, and different providers competing behing those standards. Or even better: companies could even mix the services: say "I want my backups replicated between this French company and this Croatian one".
Do you think China wouldn't have bought ASML if Europe would let them? They would've done so a decade ago. The exact same reasoning now needs to be applied to the likes of OVHCloud.
I personally don't think it makes a lot of sense for consumers or small business to have to wrangle dozens of IT providers. How can we consolidate them?
Consolidation of various open source projects is underway with projects such as owncloud but it is still very fragile and hard to maintain.
I think a pledge never to be bought out and a way to restrict stock to EU UBOs would be one step in the right direction, then you'll need a massive amount of capital to pull this off. But maybe the climate is finally right to raise a proper amount of money for such an undertaking.
This is basically just saying "we need to start by replacing 5 of the richest and most powerful companies the world has ever seen".
I think the EU should start a little smaller so they might actually make some progress on digital sovereignty within the next century.