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Comment by qiqitori | Hacker News Reader

I keep seeing "underequipped technologically relative to their Chinese peers" on HN. What kind of stuff is missing? This is not a loaded question, I only drive a couple times a month, and the vehicle I'm driving is an older Prius, so I probably lack imagination. EVs are supposed to be technologically pretty simple, most of an EV's value being in the battery packs. I've been thinking about upgrading, perhaps to a Nissan Sakura (which probably doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles either).

Now I kinda wish my Prius had a 3.5mm aux-in jack but I get by with an FM transmitter.

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In terms of features I see on high end cars… (no clue if these are available in Chinese cars, just to help you get an idea of what exists)

1. Backup camera with lines that move as you turn the wheel

2. Camera setup that lets you see how close you are to curbs, other cars, etc. from a plethora of unexpected angles (you can get a top-down view of your car! Pretty cool.)

3. Automatic parking when parallel parking

4. “Reverse actions” feature, where you press a button after very carefully getting into a spot, and the car replays it in reverse to get you out of said spot

5. Lots of remote features tied to an app. The ability to look through cameras, auto-record videos when people get close, lock and unlock and view status of the car. Remote tracking via GPS in case it’s stolen.

6. Turn on your turn signal, your dash changes to a live video feed of that side of the car

7. Chairs with heating and cooling, massaging, and auto-inertia-damping features

8. Bluetooth and Apple CarPlay plus Android auto

9. Road-scanning cameras which adjust suspension live based on upcoming road conditions

10. Crash preparation features like Benz’s Pink Noise or auto-recording a minute of video to assist with crash investigations

There are probably may I’m forgetting.

I have 1 and 8 on my cheap RAV4 from 7 years ago. Heated seats too.

saw an xpeng playing music outside the car, not inside, for beach parties

and, this is not a joke, truly: the seat gave me a massage.

Lol, 1 to 4 is just called "knowing how to drive". These cameras aren't a serious value add unless you're driving a massive tank, err car.

Backup cameras have been legally required on new vehicles for like a decade. It is well understood to prevent accidents.

There are hundreds of millions of drivers with new ones entering and old ones exiting the roads all the time.

If you want to practically improve safety you have to make the vehicles safer, you can't just hope pointing fingers at bad drivers is gonna do anything.

The rear window in trucks and SUVs is above the head height of a small child. w/o a backup camera there is literally no way to see if a small child is behind you.

So many parents ran over their own child that backup cameras are now mandatory in the US.

That's why you check all around the car before setting off.

Children tend to move around.

Most people are just crap at parenting. Whenever I am moving a car backward to park or unpark my car, I ask everybody to stand at a specific place where I see them, regardless if they are adults or kids.

So yes everyone is right, yes a lots of people are just bad at taking basic safety measures but backup cameras are still a necessity because this will not change, it is even worse with people doomscrolling their smartphone while driving.

or reversing in public where random kids could end up behind you I guess

> Whenever I am moving a car backward to park or unpark my car, I ask everybody to stand at a specific place where I see them, regardless if they are adults or kids.

How does that help other people walking down a sidewalk?

Unfortunately children playing in the yard have ample time to get behind the car between you checking it, entering the car, starting it, and reversing.

Yes, in principle one could take whatever other measures necessary to prevent such accidents. In reality, backup cameras save lives. Just like seatbelts, anti-lock brakes, crash safety standards, and other safety features that "Real Manly Drivers" protested against back in the day.

Crazy to think that multiple countries chose to solve the danger of cars all turning into giant murder tanks was to add cameras rather than to classify the murder tanks as being too dangerous to drive.

Parking in a dense European city is much easier with the rear camera. The pure radar version is ok but the camera really allows you to use every inch.

> 5. Lots of remote features tied to an app. The ability to look through cameras, auto-record videos when people get close, lock and unlock and view status of the car. Remote tracking via GPS in case it’s stolen.

This is akin to spyware, since inevitably it is a cloud service using an onboard cellular modem.

I would personally rather have none of 1-10. What I do want in a high-end vehicle is things that are there for my benefit (heated steering wheel, heated/ventilated seats, spacious cupholders, etc.) not the manufacturer's.

huh. I don't want any of those things and i do have a porsche.

A backup camera is so useful and important it's required by law now, and it's already on your Porsche if it's not 20 years old.

just missed it - but that does seem to be a good add.

I have 1,2,6 and 8 plus part of 5 and 7 (remote lock, unlock, status and GPS tracking, heated and cooled seats) on my 4-year old Hyundai Tucson. Not expensive and a very good value for money car. Made in Alabama.

Not sure about 4 and 9, but the rest are available in US cars (not sure if any US car has all of them, though).

Some of these have been around for almost a decade. Not specific to EVs. I drive an ancient car (2003), but I've rented cars that have the rest.

> What kind of stuff is missing?

I'm in the market for buying a new car, either EV or hybrid. Currently have a Audi, been looking at various BYD models, particularly the new Touring one.

One important feature, that I didn't know I needed before I tried it, was in-seat AC, where the air from the AC hits the back and bottom, instead of just your arms and face. Living in a warm country, and spending most of the time in the car during the summer, this feature is something I really want now.

Heading to Audi and asking what the cheapest model available with that feature? Around 70K EUR. Doing the same but going to BYD: 35K EUR. And that's just considering that single feature, the same happens for almost everything. Want a HUD in the windshield? Audi adds 5K to the price, with BYD it's in the middle variants and up.

Basically, you get the same amount of "features" for half the price, and it's hard to just say "Well, I'm a fan of Audi so that's worth the markup". Still, there are many decisions that go into purchasing a car, not just the features, but I think that explains why you see that argument come up, because they do offer more features for cheaper than at least what the European car makers do.

I think this is one place where European automakers are going to have to adapt or die out. Even if they can get the motors, batteries, and charging systems to a competitive level, Chinese manufacturers include most """luxury""" features by default. European manufacturers go the other way, including the hardware but locking the entire thing behind microtransactions or "upgrades".

They're going to need to cover the losses they're compensating for with the ridiculous upgrade prices somehow or they're going to lose even more customers. The import tariffs raised to protect the European market from affordable Chinese cars aren't going to work forever.

This is mostly an issue with German cars. A lower-end Skoda comes standard with features that would cost half the car's price if optioned on a Mercedes.

Still, browsing the Skoda website, I see Skoda offering lane assist for 450 to 750 euros (one is a "plus" version for some reason), a "headlight assist" for 990 euros, and CarPlay/Android Auto support for 450 euros. 250 euros for heated seats, 350 for adding a phone charging port, 800 euros for satnav, 150 euros for a plastic tray between the seats. That is, of course, after selecting one of six "editions" of the same model that all come with different extras for a markup of several thousand.

The equivalent BYD comes with all of that included for free in the cheapest SKU. The biggest differentiator is that the heated seats are only available in BYD's most luxury version of the car, but the most luxury option is still 22% cheaper than the Skoda with equivalent options. BYD does charge more for a lick of paint, to be fair, so if you're looking for a specific colour you may pay a little more.

Perhaps BMW and Mercedes are worse at this, but the 150 euro plastic tray with cup holder says everything that needs to be said.

This is an odd one to take so long to "become normal" in luxury cars.

Lincoln started doing this about 20 years ago. You can buy Chevrolet pickup trucks with this feature. Of course my Polestar 2 (Swedish but made in China) has ventilation.

Now some might do true AC, while many just do ventilation, but either way it adds a lot of comfort if you're in a very warm cabin (or, say, have a huge panoramic sunroof.)

> Doing the same but going to BYD: 35K EUR.

To add insult to injury - a good portion of it is tariff (which in itself is just countering CN government subsidy)

I'd be careful buying Chinese EV's purely due to sanction/markup depreciation, on top of already hard EV depreciation.

I think a few things.

1. They do not have robust self-driving capability. At this level of expense I expect hands-free major highway driving.

2. They’ve removed a lot of physical buttons that improve quality of life, the level of technology in the cabin is simply overwhelming.

3. They’ve done a great job with the driving experience of the EVs but they have poor range relative to the competition.

I hate touch/sensor buttons and sliders. Give me back my physical buttons and spinning controls. Also, same for electrical speedometers/tachometers, etc

I have a 2022 Porsche 911. It has a lot of physical controls for things in the cabin like climate control, suspension settings, cruise control, dashboard view, and audio. The car also has an auto steer and cruise control option which will accelerate and brake for you while also keeping the car in the lane. It can go from a stop to whatever speed you set it to. It’s great for traffic on the highway. That’s not too shabby for a 2022 non EV car. Current model Mercedes have level 4 driving automation where you can take your eyes off the road. I don’t think Tesla even has this level of driving automation yet.

> That’s not too shabby for a 2022 non EV car

It very much is! (no offense) And EV vs ICE doesn't make a difference, the manufacturers put the same ADAS systems regardless of the powertrain.

BMW has had radar cruise control + lane keeping since 2016 I think? In 2019 they added full hands-free operation in highway traffic (up to 40 mph) as well as auto lane change when you tap the turn signal. In 2023 they have full hands free up to 85 mph on highways, plus auto lane change w/ navigation integration and auto-overtaking (car promps you to check the mirror, then changes lane completely touchless).

A frickin' 2020 Honda Civic has the same ADAS functionality as your '22 Porsche, even on the base trim ($21k). Porsche is way, way behind. And that's before you even get to all of the non-ADAS drivers assistance systems for parking, reversing, etc., which again the other Germans trash Porsche on.

Why would you care about ADAS on a drivers' car? Sure that might be useful on a Camry or another point A -> point B appliance, but I doubt Porsche buyers give any thought to those features.

Porsche buyers don't want self driving. The button thing is industry wide MBA group think that is being walked back. Their haptic buttons are actually not bad. Car manufacturers are shit at software, presumably because they don't feel the need to pay top euro for talent. Again an industry wide syndrome. Heck GM think it's smart to delete Apple carplay from their vehicles. The only electronics feature all buyers want.

See this MKBHD video for an idea of features in Chinese EVs.

https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI

Watched it! I know it's from a US perspective, but where I live (Japan), $42000 is quite a lot! Definitely premium car territory. (E.g., Lexus RX base model)

IMO the car has a lot of bells and whistles that many drivers (probably!) don't really care about. But I guess car fans like this kind of stuff. The active noise cancelling feature might be nice, but wouldn't be surprised if we see regulation on that matter at some point. You kind of need to be alert of your surroundings, etc.

This is a car that is more expensive than a Tesla Model 3 in the Chinese market, with more or less the same features.

I don't want to make an exhaustive list, the summary is that standard features on many new cars are expensive options on Porsche's. And that's if they're available at all. Adaptive cruise control is one example.

Where I live, luxury cars are just status now. I don't think that's enough to keep gen Z and gen A interested.

Clearly porsche is missing the built in karaoke.

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