Last year I eliminated our PTO policy. I called it "unlimited." | Hacker News Reader

Last year I eliminated our PTO policy. I called it "unlimited."

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31 pointsmarbartolome25 comments

"Unlimited" PTO, from an employee's perspective, is an obvious trap that borders on a scam. Everyone knows that, practically speaking, there can't really be unlimited PTO. When a company says it has unlimited PTO, what it's really saying is "we won't tell you the limit". That makes taking PTO a fearful thing, which is probably the whole idea.

"Unlimited" PTO is an oddity that can only exist when you don't have statutory minimums.

https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights "Almost all people classed as workers are legally entitled to 5.6 weeks’ paid holiday a year (known as statutory leave entitlement or annual leave)."

True unlimited PTO can exist in the UK, though the "unlimited" PTO can't, as employees can't agree to less than the statutory minimum.

That said, unscrupulous employers try to get around this by putting stupid requirements on taking PTO that practically mean taking your legal allocation aren't possible. Things like "we need minimum staff levels to cover" and, shockingly enough, you don't have enough staff to actually give out everyone's PTO. Combine this with requiring long timeframes to book it and your manager "forgetting" you had PTO booked and insecure job contracts and you have a recipe for grinding your staff to dust.

This one I always found super weird, because typically in Europe you just can't carry days over beyond the current year, so that argument for it never really held. Or at least, not many, my current employer lets me roll over 5 but they have to be used by 1st March.

In the UK we're typically by law entitled to 25 days inc. bank (i.e. public) holidays, but most 'professional' jobs will give you at least 25 days plus bank holidays giving a total of ~33ish days per year of leave. When one of the bank holidays would fall on a weekend (e.g. Christmas Day) then it's transferred to the Monday following. Very very occasionally, there are additional bank holidays added e.g. for the Royal Wedding in 2011 one was created.

Often companies will give you a few more days after a number of years of service e.g. an additional 4 days after 5 years. Public sector jobs are usually more generous again e.g. 32 days + bank holidays plus some 'closure' days meaning ~42ish days of leave.

In Austria, they roll over. I recently changed jobs and cashed in my unused vacation days to cover the expenses during the transition. It worked very well, and my previous employer was happy that I stayed during the entire switch period instead of just taking 2 months of vacation days. They had no issues paying those days out, because it meant I stayed in the chair longer to train my replacements.

In Sweden it's allowed to carry over 5 days (or maybe more depending on the collective agreements, a bit hazy on that) from the previous year, for a maximum of 5 years. So if you save 5 days every year by year 5 you can take 25 additional days off.

I wish more European countries relocated holidays to the closest Fri/Mon, I know that Ireland the UK do it, it's such a drag when most holidays fall on a Sat/Sun...

The kid named 4Chan finally grew up, dropped funny angle brackets, and entered workplace.

Now he's evil and steals wages.

I have unlimited PTO.

It's not company policy. I don't take time off.

It's not law, which says 7 days per year is legal.

I just do what I want. Like not showing up saying I'm sick or "working" from home for a week.

Or doing my stuff on my laptop at the office.

If manager asks about something I say I'm working on it.

But no one asks. They don't want to be cause of a good employee quitting.

I set conservative estimates and I do literal minimum to technically reach them.

Everybody loves this system. No one can tell I'm slacking and I'm more chill as a person.

I always knew that "Unlimited PTO" is beneficial to the company rather than its employees. It's the same trick of "we offer [20% lower base salary than market rate] + 2.79% equity" - it sounds like you could break the bank from equity by earning less actual money, but in reality, most of this equity does not worth the bytes it occupies on the servers.

> I said, "That's not tracked."

> It is tracked.

> I have a dashboard.

> I don't share the dashboard.

Classic.

I assume this is satire, but that aside -- many of my friends who entered into big tech as new grads with "unlimited pto" are indeed very hesitant to take it. They are worried that it'd affect how their managers see them. The same idea with showing up before your manager and leaving after they leave.

If an employer is going to advertise unlimited PTO, I surely will take a week off every quarter in the US, plus any necessary sick time. Not using PTO doesn't make sense.

This would be less than the legal minimum in many countries.

Is this flagged because YC companies have unlimited PTO policies?

Replying to a shitpost, but...

If it has to be approved by a manager, it's not unlimited.

Is there a work-appropriate synonym for shitpost?

Imagine trying this policy in Europe or anywhere with workplace rights.

I am trying to imagine. The end result is similar. In Europe it would be "unlimited unpaid vacation days on top of the mandatory paid vacation". The same problems will appear: self-restrict to taking it. Management would never help employees to take the days. My manager does not help me even take the mandatory legal days, it's all on me to deal with priorities and deliverables and find a way to still take vacation. With decent managers, there would be no burnout, but we are in a crisis of morals in corporate management, the job of most current managers is to make a career at the expense of the employees.

Oh I don't doubt that the mandated leave entitlements and severance would be kept. But I think actual leave taken would increase, bounded only by the fact that taking holidays is expensive, and kids have to go to school. So you balance your career progression and hence holiday spending power in the future against immediate satisfaction from taking leave. I think many jobs without a meaningful career trajectory would experience massive leave taking. Remember, these people can't be fired or demoted in any way. If the work has to be done, it might even cause employers to incentivise work differently.

I don't think career plans matter. Workload does. If you have a work plan and taking any free days puts it in jeopardy, you will not take any extra free days. And if not meeting the full work plan results in no salary updates, which is technically not a punishment and it is allowed by law in most of Europe, with some inflation (over 10% in my country) it is practically a pay cut, so you can't afford that.

That would certainly not fly in France, it would land the employer in a tribunal. Paying someone less because you gave them more work than could be completed during working hours?! Non, impossible.

This is just a shitpost sadly, not an actual executive.

This is taken from an actual (confidential) executive manual.

/r/LinkedInLunatics

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