Comment by zero_shift | Hacker News Reader

Comment by zero_shift | Hacker News Reader

Because the idea you can have all aspects of maintaining a complex piece of technology, maintained by a single cross-skilled team of interchangeable cogs, is utopian and unworkable past any reasonable level of scale

DevOps, shift left, full stack dev, all reminds me of the Futurama episode where Hermes Conrad successfully reorgs the slave camp he's sent to, so that all physical labour is done by a single Australian man

Speaking darker, there is a kind of - well, perhaps not misanthropy, but certainly a not-so-well-meaning dismissiveness, to the "silo breaking" philosophy that looks at complex fields and says "well these should all just be lumped together as one thing, the important stuff is simple, I don't know why you're making all these siloes, man" - assuming that ops specialists, sysadmins, programmers, DBAs, frontend devs, mobile devs, data engineers and testers have just invented the breadth and depth and subtleties of their entire fields, only as a way of keeping everybody else out

But modern systems are complex, they are only getting more so, and the further you buy into the shift-left everyone-is-everything computer-jobs-are-all-the-same philosophy the harder and harder it will get to find employees who can straddle the exhausting range of knowledge to master

> the "silo breaking" philosophy that looks at complex fields and says "well these should all just be lumped together as one thing, the important stuff is simple,

I don’t think this is the right take. “Silo’s” is an ill-defined term, but let’s look at a couple of the negative aspects. “Lack of communication”, and “Lack of shared understanding” (or different models of the world). I’m going to use a different industry example, as I think it helps think about the problem more abstractly.

In the world of biomedical engineering, the types of products you are making require the expertise of two very different groups of people. Engineers and Doctors. A member of either of these groups have an in-group language, and there is an inherent power differential between them. Doctors are more “important” than engineers. But to get anything made, you need the expertise of both.

One way to handle this is to keep the engineers and doctors separate and to communicate primarily via documents. The doctor will attempt to detail exactly how a certain component should work. The engineer will attempt to detail the constraints and request clarifications.

The problem with this approach is that the engineer cannot speak “doctorese” nor can the doctor speak “engineerese”; and the consequence is a model in each person’s head that differs significantly from the other. There is no shared model; and the real world product suffers as a result.

The alternative is to attempt to “break the silos”; force the engineers and doctors to sit with each other, learn each other’s language, and build a shared mental model of what is being created. This creates a far better product; one that is much closer to the “physical reality” it must inhabit.

The same is true across all kinds of business groups. If different groups of people are required to collaborate, in order to do something, those people are well served by learning each other’s languages and building a shared mental model. That’s what breaking silos is about. It is not “everyone is the same”, it’s “breaking down the communication barriers”.

I don't think that's like DevOps, though. A closer analogy would be a business that only hired EngDocs, doctors who had to be accredited engineers as well as vascular surgeons.

I don't think anyone thinks siloes are themselves a good thing, but they might be a necessary consequence of having specialists. Shift-left is mostly designed to reduce conversations between groups, by having individuals straddle across tasks. It's actually kind of anti-collaboration, or at least pessimistic that collaboration can happen

Oh, I completely agree! We created “EngDocs”, as you say, and simply made the situation worse. An EngDoc is an obviously ludicrous concept, on its face. But by breaking down the silo in the biomedical example, each engineer becomes a bit knowledgeable about an aspect of medicine and each doctor gains some knowledge about aspects of engineering.

I am arguing that all such people, whether developers or ops or ux designers or product managers; need to engage in this learning as they collaborate. This doesn’t mean that we want the DevPM as a resultant title, just that Siloing these different groups will lead to perverse outcomes.

Dev and ops have been traditionally siloed. DevOps was a silly attempt to address it.

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