Comment by SomeCallMeTim | Hacker News Reader

Comment by SomeCallMeTim | Hacker News Reader

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Ethics != Morals [1][2], by the way. Some things that are clearly immoral in one value system or another are clearly NOT unethical in any system of ethics. Something that is ethical/unethical pretty much always refers to a relationship, for instance. Consider any "thought" crime ("coveting" comes to mind); if you're a native English speaker, describing "coveting" to be immoral makes sense (speaking semantically), where calling it "unethical" doesn't click.

In particular, since ethics are about relationships, they are defined by the (sometimes unspoken) rules of that relationship. The ethical framework of a lawyer/client relationship is different than the ethical framework of two guys chatting at a bar, for example. If the lawyer hears a confession to a serious crime, it would be unethical to report it, while a bar buddy would be ethically clear to report the same crime. I would even argue that a lawyer reporting a confession to the authorities could be considered to be a moral (if unethical) decision, at least in some belief systems, though probably not in all.

And in this case...I'm not a marketer, but the fact that the other company was "furious" strongly indicates to me that it probably was an ethical lapse. When you're playing chess and someone makes a really key move, you may be disappointed, but you don't get mad. If they take your queen from the board when you weren't looking, you do get mad. The latter is certainly "outside of the box", but it's against the rules. And yes, there DO exist "sore losers" who will complain even when they have no right to, but I do think it was at least a minor ethical violation here, at least between him and the conference organizers who typically charge to distribute fliers like that.

[1] http://www.argee.net/Thrawn%20Rickle/Thrawn%20Rickle%2046.ht...

[2] http://everyday-ethics.org/2008/11/ethics-vs-morals-not-as-e...

upvoted. i am aware that i used ethics and morals interchangeably in the parent response, and as i was originally writing it, i debated whether that was appropriate (i left it because i didn't thin i'd get called out, obviously wrong).

From one of your links "According to Dictionary.com, ethics is a system of moral principles, while morals are principles of right and wrong conduct."

this is the sort of discussion that can rapidly devolve into something less interesting than the story of virool's hustle. i don't think anyone will dispute that the behavior was aggressive, questionable, possibly unprofessional.

i don't have a strong position on whether it's ethical or not, but i still dig the hustle.

i won't dwell, since i think it detracts from the real story here.

just went back and re-read your paragraph.

I am fine with "Ethics != Morals".

However your explanations seem suspect:

1. I disagree entirely with the comments "ethical/unethical pretty much always refers to a relationship" and "ethics are about relationships"

2. "Some things that are clearly immoral in one value system or another are clearly NOT unethical in any system of ethics." -- This confuses me. Can you give me an example of an act that is CLEARLY IMMORAL in one value system and also CLEARLY NOT UNETHICAL in ANY SYSTEM OF ETHICS

1. Sorry, but that's how I see it used probably 99% of the time. Are you a native English speaker? And does it sound right to you to say "It's unethical to THINK X?" It sounds completely wrong to me, and (typically) when I bring it up to a native English speaker, they almost always think about it and agree.

Maybe you missed that memo, but it IS the typical usage, as I've observed it and confirmed with others. You don't have to believe me, but I've gotten a surprising number of upvotes (here and elsewhere) as a result of posting about this topic, so I think I'm not being crazy here.

2. This actually follows trivially from #1, in that ANY thought crime (looking at porn, coveting, thinking disrespectful thoughts of an elder, etc.) is de facto NOT about a relationship, and therefore can't be "unethical."

You may not believe #1, and if not, well, your loss. Not interested in arguing about it further. But you shouldn't be confused as to how #1 can imply #2.

There's additional confusion from the fact that "Ethics" as a topic of study is often just a synonym for "Morality," (capital letters) which doesn't take into account the colloquial meanings of "ethical" (lowercase 'e') and "moral".

tl;dr: English actually sucks.

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